Channel hopping last night I noticed 'Boxing Classics' was just about to start on Eurosport so I pressed information on my remote to see what treat they were about to serve up.
How I chuckled when the description read something like "This weeks all time great fight features Joe Calzaghe vs Branco Sobot". Made me laugh anyway...
So I started watching some of the snooker only to flick back to see they were showing Hearns-Cuevas! How cool is that? I've seen most of The Hitmans world title fights but not that one, I always wanted to see it because it was the night Hearns really announced himself.
I have a programme from the first Leonard-Hearns fight and it has a picture of Hearns spearing Cuevas with that long right hand, had that since I was 10 years old so I always wanted to see the fight. Hearns was devastating...
They also showed highlights of Tony Zale against Marcel Cerdan, exciting stuff, just noticed it was Ring magazines fight of the year in 1948 (the my mother was born!).
I never knew Cerdan died in a plane crash flying back to the US for his rematch with LaMotta to whom he had lost the title after the Zale fight.
Last nights Eurosport
Re: Last nights Eurosport
Aint you ever watched Raging Bull? I'm sure there's some kind of commentary about it in the background at some point in the film.Goz wrote: I never knew Cerdan died in a plane crash flying back to the US for his rematch with LaMotta to whom he had lost the title after the Zale fight.
Hey, one question about Raging Bull. When Jake brings Vicky home for the first time, is that his wife he's calling? Then he tells Vicky "She's probably out shopping or something.." I mean are you telling me that he'd just casually bring home some young blond without knowing if his plant-pot-throwing wife was going to be around?? Hopefully someone can explain that one for me. Maybe Jake was a bit suicidal.
Er. anyway yeah I watched only the Hearns fight (Branco v Sabot a classic yer right) All the way through (like I always do with Hearns v Cuevas) I was muttering "How the hell did Ray Leonard beat this guy..". How the hell did he?
Re: Last nights Eurosport
Don't ask me why I said Branco v Sabot. Of course I meant Calzaghe.
Re: Last nights Eurosport
Same with Hagler too I suppose, how did Sugar Ray beat him?Kilburn wrote:Aint you ever watched Raging Bull? I'm sure there's some kind of commentary about it in the background at some point in the film.Goz wrote: I never knew Cerdan died in a plane crash flying back to the US for his rematch with LaMotta to whom he had lost the title after the Zale fight.
Hey, one question about Raging Bull. When Jake brings Vicky home for the first time, is that his wife he's calling? Then he tells Vicky "She's probably out shopping or something.." I mean are you telling me that he'd just casually bring home some young blond without knowing if his plant-pot-throwing wife was going to be around?? Hopefully someone can explain that one for me. Maybe Jake was a bit suicidal.
Er. anyway yeah I watched only the Hearns fight (Branco v Sabot a classic yer right) All the way through (like I always do with Hearns v Cuevas) I was muttering "How the hell did Ray Leonard beat this guy..". How the hell did he?
Haven't seen Raging Bull in 15 years, keep meaning to get it one night when the missus is out or something...
Re: Last nights Eurosport
Yeah but many think Hagler won that one. With Hearns there was no disputing it. The big man was worn down and then destroyed. Whenever I watch Leonard v Hearns I still expect the big man to blast Sugar Ray into oblivion, guess I'll never quite get over it!Goz wrote:Same with Hagler too I suppose, how did Sugar Ray beat him?
Re: Last nights Eurosport
True. I don't though.Kilburn wrote:Goz wrote: Yeah but many think Hagler won that one.
I think what made the Hagler result all the more remarkable was the circumstances leading up to the fight, 1 fight in 4/5 years in which he looked pretty bad, never fought before at Middleweight, up against an all-time great, a stunning upset regardless of the close decision.
Damn, you've got me already. 
Okay so continuing your fight career when your past your sell by date is not part and parcel of the majority of all time greats. Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Azumah Nelson, Pernell Whittikar, Larry Holmes, Thomas Hearns, Joe Louis - would you like me to continue.
The man was in the greatest era of Welterweight/Middleweight boxing period (IMO) there were 5 guys who would go down as all time greats (I really get annoyed when people forget Wilfredo Benitez and just call it the fabolous four).
Leonard is the only fighter to score a W against all 5. Its a pity that injury kept in out of the game during his prime years, but hey he transended the sport for the lower weight devisions.
Do you have any other argument points, please bring them on.
Okay so continuing your fight career when your past your sell by date is not part and parcel of the majority of all time greats. Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Azumah Nelson, Pernell Whittikar, Larry Holmes, Thomas Hearns, Joe Louis - would you like me to continue.
The man was in the greatest era of Welterweight/Middleweight boxing period (IMO) there were 5 guys who would go down as all time greats (I really get annoyed when people forget Wilfredo Benitez and just call it the fabolous four).
Leonard is the only fighter to score a W against all 5. Its a pity that injury kept in out of the game during his prime years, but hey he transended the sport for the lower weight devisions.
Do you have any other argument points, please bring them on.
Yes, Sugar Ray is the greatest fighter of all time. But his surname ends in Robinson.stujones wrote:Sugar Ray Leonard - Greatest fighter of all time period. Now if anyone wants to argue that with me I'm ready.
Last edited by bennie on 26 Nov 2003, 13:31, edited 1 time in total.
I wish I did Stu, I've got a chip on my shoulder today. Unfortunately there's very little in the way of minus points in the Sugar Ray Leonard column.stujones wrote: Do you have any other argument points, please bring them on.
Why can't someone bring it up that Lennox Lewis was hurt in the first round against Shannon Briggs? I'll be on 'em!!
Any consolation, I have Mr Robinson at #2 with Ali at #3. I can't really argue against your decision. The who did he beat line - which works when I'm arguing Leonard's case against most doesn't apply for Robinson.bennie wrote:Yes, Sugar Ray is the greatest fighter if all time. But his surname ends in Robinson.stujones wrote:Sugar Ray Leonard - Greatest fighter of all time period. Now if anyone wants to argue that with me I'm ready.
The only thing I can argue, is I wonder how Robinson would have fared when facing a genetic freak like Hearns. Please, don't give me that rematch stuff unless you've watched it at least 3 times - because Hearns vs Leonard II was very close.
If it was for Leonard vs Hagler in 1987 then I'm sure many poster would have Hagler very high (and I'm mean top 5 for certain) in their all time great bracket. Duran is also in many peoples all time top 10. Hearns and Benitez would be alot higher had Leonard not been on the scene - and their top 50 anyway.
Can't think of that many who would be considered QUITE so highly who faught and lost to Robinson.
Leonard skills transcented the game. DLH and Moseley's handspeed gets compared to Leonards, not Robinson's.
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MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
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Re: Last nights Eurosport
Hearns v Cuevas was the fight that got me started - turned on the tv in America and was hooked for life.Goz wrote:Channel hopping last night I noticed 'Boxing Classics' was just about to start on Eurosport so I pressed information on my remote to see what treat they were about to serve up.
How I chuckled when the description read something like "This weeks all time great fight features Joe Calzaghe vs Branco Sobot". Made me laugh anyway...
So I started watching some of the snooker only to flick back to see they were showing Hearns-Cuevas! How cool is that? I've seen most of The Hitmans world title fights but not that one, I always wanted to see it because it was the night Hearns really announced himself.
I have a programme from the first Leonard-Hearns fight and it has a picture of Hearns spearing Cuevas with that long right hand, had that since I was 10 years old so I always wanted to see the fight. Hearns was devastating...
They also showed highlights of Tony Zale against Marcel Cerdan, exciting stuff, just noticed it was Ring magazines fight of the year in 1948 (the my mother was born!).
I never knew Cerdan died in a plane crash flying back to the US for his rematch with LaMotta to whom he had lost the title after the Zale fight.
The way Hearns took apart the bonebreaking Cuevas was just awesome.
Like Kilburn says, I couldn't see SRL getting past Hearns - I was telling anyone who'd listen that Leonard was going to have his head handed to him...
Looking back I'd give Leonard a chance with anyone - too much fire for Roy Jones I think...Robinson deserves P4P #1 though for his overall achievements.
I think Cerdan was a slight favorite to beat LaMotta in the rematch - many thought he'd win it as he'd dislocated his arm first time round.
Ray Leonard against Roy Jones would have been a sight to behold though. At Middleweight I would pick Jones, Leonard was at his peak at Welterweight, although Sugar Ray pulled off a great win over Hagler in reality Leonard was not at his peak and just used what he did have left, and Hagler was slipping too.
Imagine the 2 of them in the ring though, could have either been a snoozefest with neither going for it or it could have been the most fabulous display of boxing ever seen.
Imagine the 2 of them in the ring though, could have either been a snoozefest with neither going for it or it could have been the most fabulous display of boxing ever seen.
Sugar Ray Leonard was a great fighter, but the original, the first, is always the best. And that was Sugar Ray Robinson.
Robinson won all his 85 amateur contests, 69 of them by knockout - 40 in the first round! Willie Pep was one of his amateur victims.
He turned pro in October 1940 and won his first 40 fights straight off before Jake LaMotta outpointed him in Detroit in 1943, something Jake lived to regret. Ray then remained unbeaten for a further 91 fights - winning world titles at welterweight and middleweight - before Randy Turpin caught him on a tour of Europe, not in the best of shape, and captured his middleweight title in a stunning upset in London. There was a rematch in New York 64 days later. On the verge of being halted due to a badly cut eye, Ray pulled out a fantastic right hand in the tenth that took all the fight out of Turpin. The brave Englishman beat the count, but was being pounded on the ropes when saved by referee Ruby Goldstein.
Robinson always said his greatest disappointment was not losing his crown to Turpin, but failing to beat Joey Maxim for the world light-heavyweight title in 1952 in Madison Square Garden. Conceding over a stone in weight, in a temperature of 104 degrees, Ray was comfortably ahead by the end of round 10, when referee Ruby Goldstein collapsed with the heat and had to be replaced by Ray Miller. Ray continued to outbox Maxim, but the heat finally proved too much and, completely exhausted, he was unable to answer the bell for the start of round 14. It was the only time he was beaten inside the distance.
Those defeats to LaMotta, Turpin and Maxim, remain the only defeats he suffered in his peak. The rest occurred after 1955, when he was well into his 30's.
Sugar announced his retirement after the Maxim disappointment, but was back two years later to win back his middleweight title by crushing Carl 'Bobo' Olson with one of the best uppercuts ever seen. He poleaxed Rocky Graziano with one the best right hands ever seen. He flattened Gene Fullmer with one of the best left hooks ever seen. He was the complete boxer-puncher. During his reign at welterweight, he beat Jimmy Doyle, Chuck Taylor, Bernard Docusen, Kid Gavilan and Charlie Fusari. He won the middleweight title from LaMotta in a performance hailed the 'St. Valentine's Day Massacre'. Robinson overwhelmed LaMotta with frightening speed and power in the 13th round. He beat the legendary 'Bronx Bull' five times in all. Most would only tackle him once.
By the end of his career he had notched up 202 fights, of which he won 175, 109 by way of knockout.
Robinson won all his 85 amateur contests, 69 of them by knockout - 40 in the first round! Willie Pep was one of his amateur victims.
He turned pro in October 1940 and won his first 40 fights straight off before Jake LaMotta outpointed him in Detroit in 1943, something Jake lived to regret. Ray then remained unbeaten for a further 91 fights - winning world titles at welterweight and middleweight - before Randy Turpin caught him on a tour of Europe, not in the best of shape, and captured his middleweight title in a stunning upset in London. There was a rematch in New York 64 days later. On the verge of being halted due to a badly cut eye, Ray pulled out a fantastic right hand in the tenth that took all the fight out of Turpin. The brave Englishman beat the count, but was being pounded on the ropes when saved by referee Ruby Goldstein.
Robinson always said his greatest disappointment was not losing his crown to Turpin, but failing to beat Joey Maxim for the world light-heavyweight title in 1952 in Madison Square Garden. Conceding over a stone in weight, in a temperature of 104 degrees, Ray was comfortably ahead by the end of round 10, when referee Ruby Goldstein collapsed with the heat and had to be replaced by Ray Miller. Ray continued to outbox Maxim, but the heat finally proved too much and, completely exhausted, he was unable to answer the bell for the start of round 14. It was the only time he was beaten inside the distance.
Those defeats to LaMotta, Turpin and Maxim, remain the only defeats he suffered in his peak. The rest occurred after 1955, when he was well into his 30's.
Sugar announced his retirement after the Maxim disappointment, but was back two years later to win back his middleweight title by crushing Carl 'Bobo' Olson with one of the best uppercuts ever seen. He poleaxed Rocky Graziano with one the best right hands ever seen. He flattened Gene Fullmer with one of the best left hooks ever seen. He was the complete boxer-puncher. During his reign at welterweight, he beat Jimmy Doyle, Chuck Taylor, Bernard Docusen, Kid Gavilan and Charlie Fusari. He won the middleweight title from LaMotta in a performance hailed the 'St. Valentine's Day Massacre'. Robinson overwhelmed LaMotta with frightening speed and power in the 13th round. He beat the legendary 'Bronx Bull' five times in all. Most would only tackle him once.
By the end of his career he had notched up 202 fights, of which he won 175, 109 by way of knockout.
Re: Last nights Eurosport
Yes it was his wife. LaMotta wasn't a model husband, in his book he admits once hitting one of his wives so hard he knocked her unconcious, he thought she was dead and his younger brother joey suggested they roll her in a carpet and throw her in a lake, they were going to do it too but she woke up.Kilburn wrote:
Hey, one question about Raging Bull. When Jake brings Vicky home for the first time, is that his wife he's calling? Then he tells Vicky "She's probably out shopping or something.." I mean are you telling me that he'd just casually bring home some young blond without knowing if his plant-pot-throwing wife was going to be around?? Hopefully someone can explain that one for me. Maybe Jake was a bit suicidal.
Yes i back you on that one. Some talk of a fellow called Ali as well, but too many controversial wins on his record for my liking. Was he "The Greatest" through actual merit or because he kept telling everyone so?bennie wrote:Yes, Sugar Ray is the greatest fighter of all time. But his surname ends in Robinson.stujones wrote:Sugar Ray Leonard - Greatest fighter of all time period. Now if anyone wants to argue that with me I'm ready.
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MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
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