Underrated wins

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 30 Aug 2007, 13:32

Other underrated wins:
Carlos Ortiz W15 Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna W15 Carlos Ortiz I
Jorge Lujan TKO10 Alfonso Zamora
Fighting Harada W15 Eder Jofre I
Wilfredo Gomez TKO5 Carlos Zarate
Roberto Duran W10 Carlos Palomino
Wilfred Benitez W15 Carlos Palomino
Esteban DeJesus W10 Roberto Duran I
Jimmy Young W12 George Foreman

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 30 Aug 2007, 16:35

I wouldn't call Duran-DeJesus I underrated. DeJesus gets credit for that, and the rematches were much more definitive, Duran tore him apart.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 31 Aug 2007, 11:52

Ingemar Johansson KO 1 Eddie Machen

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 31 Aug 2007, 15:33

Andrés Selpa beat Eduardo Lausse, I and II
Ray Portilla KO Joe Brown
Eloy Sánchez KO José Becerra
Tom Bethea KO Nino Benvenuti
Saensak Muangsurin KO Miguel Velázquez

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 03 Sep 2007, 00:46

I Feel Fine wrote:I wouldn't call Duran-DeJesus I underrated. DeJesus gets credit for that, and the rematches were much more definitive, Duran tore him apart.

I got to disagree with you on this one...He was the ONLY fighter that beat Duran at his very best. After that, Duran did not lose in 41 straight fights and 8 years and 8 days to be exact.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 03 Sep 2007, 01:34

No one who has seen the Duran-DeJesus fights can say the Duran of the first fight was "at his best." Firstly I don't know how seriously he took the first DeJesus fight. That said, in the second fight he was a two fisted fighter and threw a lot of nice left hooks, as opposed to the first fight where he was a lot more dependent on the right hand alone. He threw way the hell more punches in the second fight and showed excellent conditioning, as opposed to the first fight. He was much more aggressive in the second fight, rather than spending time on the outside and getting out boxed as in the first fight. In the third fight he was the total package, two fisted puncher, fought well on the inside and outside, good defense, good conditioning, once he got DeJesus in trouble he almost killed him.

Just not the same fighter as the Duran of the first fight; Duran was a much smarter, more advanced fighter in the rematches.

And again, forgetting all that, its just not an underrated win, at all. DeJesus gets a lot of credit for that win, and not many people would remember him if it hadn't been for that win. Its like saying that Douglas' win over Tyson is underrated...

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 04 Sep 2007, 07:55

Decagon wrote:I thought he very clearly lost to both Hagler and Barkley, and I don't rank fighters based on losses.

He lost to Hagler, yes. But the Barkley fight??? I do not know what fight were you watching

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 04 Sep 2007, 08:03

I Feel Fine wrote:No one who has seen the Duran-DeJesus fights can say the Duran of the first fight was "at his best." Firstly I don't know how seriously he took the first DeJesus fight. That said, in the second fight he was a two fisted fighter and threw a lot of nice left hooks, as opposed to the first fight where he was a lot more dependent on the right hand alone. He threw way the hell more punches in the second fight and showed excellent conditioning, as opposed to the first fight. He was much more aggressive in the second fight, rather than spending time on the outside and getting out boxed as in the first fight. In the third fight he was the total package, two fisted puncher, fought well on the inside and outside, good defense, good conditioning, once he got DeJesus in trouble he almost killed him.

Just not the same fighter as the Duran of the first fight; Duran was a much smarter, more advanced fighter in the rematches.

And again, forgetting all that, its just not an underrated win, at all. DeJesus gets a lot of credit for that win, and not many people would remember him if it hadn't been for that win. Its like saying that Douglas' win over Tyson is underrated...

Well, you probably never saw the fight Duran had with Ernesto Marcel. Duran outboxed a gifted technician for 9 rounds. To me, the DeJesus win over Duran was underrated and not overrated. DeJesus fought brilliantly. It just that Duran the next time around fought different. I got to disagree that the Duran of 1972 was waaayyyy different than the Duran of 1980. He was a good boxer from the start, but since he knew he can punch at lightweight, he started KOing everybody. It was when he was going up in weight at jr welter and welterweight that he had to depend much more in his high level boxing skills because he did not had the same blasting punching power going up in weight

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Sep 2007, 14:06

elmersalsa wrote:Well, you probably never saw the fight Duran had with Ernesto Marcel. Duran outboxed a gifted technician for 9 rounds. To me, the DeJesus win over Duran was underrated and not overrated. DeJesus fought brilliantly. It just that Duran the next time around fought different. I got to disagree that the Duran of 1972 was waaayyyy different than the Duran of 1980. He was a good boxer from the start, but since he knew he can punch at lightweight, he started KOing everybody. It was when he was going up in weight at jr welter and welterweight that he had to depend much more in his high level boxing skills because he did not had the same blasting punching power going up in weight

I have seen the Marcel fight, and that Duran, again, was not good as the Duran of the DeJesus rematches.

I think you can argue that Duran became a better fighter because of the DeJesus loss, but you cannot say that Duran was at his best when DeJesus fought him the first time. Duran became a much more developed fighter in later years, and DeJesus never came close to repeating that first performance in the rematches. The Duran of the rematches was a different fighter, and I would agree with decagon that the Duran who fought Leonard the first two times was probably a better fighter than the Duran of the first DeJesus fight.

Its still irellevent to the point, since this is about underrated wins and DeJesus' biggest moment was the first Duran fight, and few people would remember him if it hadn't been for that.

I still don't know that Leotis Martin beats Liston in his prime. I find it a bit odd that Liston was old and shot when he fought Clay in 64, but was in his prime again when he lost to Martin? It seems almost like that's being implied when I hear people describe those two fights. The Liston who lost to Ali was probably 90% of the fighter he was when he beat Williams and Machen. The Liston who lost to Martin was probably closer to 60%.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Sep 2007, 16:54

Yeah.

I'm not trying to suggest that Ali's win over Liston is an "underrated win". But, on ocassion, you'll see someone (not even granberry) try to make light of the '64 Liston win by saying that Liston was old or shot. On the other hand, boxing fans like to prop up the "underrated" fighter, so they won't mention how old Liston was when Martin beat him in '69. I think some boxing fans do that a lot.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 04 Sep 2007, 22:41

If I remeber right it was a big right hand followed by two more big punches. It is impressive, but Liston was 37-38. I would say it's about as impressive as Tyson's KO over Holmes... nice KO, not something that just anybody could do, even when Larry was in his 40's. Still, you have to consider where they were at that stage.

I'm not disagreeing that its an underrated win, by the way, just that we shouldn't take it for granted that Martin would do that to a younger Liston.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 06 Sep 2007, 22:55

I Feel Fine wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:Well, you probably never saw the fight Duran had with Ernesto Marcel. Duran outboxed a gifted technician for 9 rounds. To me, the DeJesus win over Duran was underrated and not overrated. DeJesus fought brilliantly. It just that Duran the next time around fought different. I got to disagree that the Duran of 1972 was waaayyyy different than the Duran of 1980. He was a good boxer from the start, but since he knew he can punch at lightweight, he started KOing everybody. It was when he was going up in weight at jr welter and welterweight that he had to depend much more in his high level boxing skills because he did not had the same blasting punching power going up in weight
I have seen the Marcel fight, and that Duran, again, was not good as the Duran of the DeJesus rematches.

I think you can argue that Duran became a better fighter because of the DeJesus loss, but you cannot say that Duran was at his best when DeJesus fought him the first time. Duran became a much more developed fighter in later years, and DeJesus never came close to repeating that first performance in the rematches. The Duran of the rematches was a different fighter, and I would agree with decagon that the Duran who fought Leonard the first two times was probably a better fighter than the Duran of the first DeJesus fight.

Its still irellevent to the point, since this is about underrated wins and DeJesus' biggest moment was the first Duran fight, and few people would remember him if it hadn't been for that.

I still don't know that Leotis Martin beats Liston in his prime. I find it a bit odd that Liston was old and shot when he fought Clay in 64, but was in his prime again when he lost to Martin? It seems almost like that's being implied when I hear people describe those two fights. The Liston who lost to Ali was probably 90% of the fighter he was when he beat Williams and Machen. The Liston who lost to Martin was probably closer to 60%.

I give DeJesus credit because first, he was an excellent boxer-puncher that could have give any lightweight in history a good fight....Secondly, the Duran of 1972 was as good as any fighter prime for prime. That Buchanan win was one of the greatest performances of the history of the sport. Duran in his prime 1972-80 and at his very best only lost to Esteban. Leonard beat a prime Duran that was not in shape. I pick a DeJesus win over Duran any time than what Leonard did in New Orleans. DeJesus win over Duran was more LEGIT. Duran trained for the fight and lost to the Puerto Rican. The Leonard rematch??? It was more of Duran's fault of not training adequately than anything else.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:17

Duran-Buchanan was a great performance, but Duran had flaws then that DeJesus was able to exploit that Buchanan was not able to. By the second and third DeJesus fights Duran was a more complete fighter, and those weaknesses were no longer there for DeJesus to exploit. Duran was a more complete fighter, hence your claim that he was "at his best" in the first fight is inaccurate.

No one is taking credit away from DeJesus, but you're going overboard. It was neither an underrated win nor a win over the best Duran.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree, since we're going in circles.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:19

Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Chavez. Sweet Pea dominated one of boxing's all time greats who came into the ring ready to destroy him. Chavez came at Pernell like a rabid pitbull, but Whitaker threw a perfect game.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:34

It's impossible, and I wouldn't want to give the powers that be this kind of authority to begin with, but I wish there was a way to reverse the draws in Leonard-Hearns II, Whitaker-Chavez and Lewis-Holyfield I. No one doubts who the winners were, and the fact that they were declared draws makes it seem like less of a stretch to reverse it and give one guy the win. And the fights weren't too long ago and all the participants are still alive.

I'm deluding myself, but these fighters would get a lot more respect if they had those wins, which would have been the biggest in their careers, and its sort of a joke considering that everyone knows who won. It's not like Hopkins-Taylor where its a 50-50 split between some siding with one and some the other. When I talk about those fights I take it for granted that Whitaker, Hearns and Lewis won, I don't even refer to those fights as draws.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:48

Decagon wrote: Coincidence?

Nope.

I would add Floyd's win over Oscar into this underrated wins category. People are trying to downgrade it, mostly because those same people likely picked Oscar by KO. But Floyd, who was already the best fighter in the world before the win, shot far ahead of his contemporaries when he beat Oscar.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 07 Sep 2007, 04:27

I Feel Fine wrote:It's impossible, and I wouldn't want to give the powers that be this kind of authority to begin with, but I wish there was a way to reverse the draws in Leonard-Hearns II, Whitaker-Chavez and Lewis-Holyfield I. No one doubts who the winners were, and the fact that they were declared draws makes it seem like less of a stretch to reverse it and give one guy the win. And the fights weren't too long ago and all the participants are still alive.

I'm deluding myself, but these fighters would get a lot more respect if they had those wins, which would have been the biggest in their careers, and its sort of a joke considering that everyone knows who won. It's not like Hopkins-Taylor where its a 50-50 split between some siding with one and some the other. When I talk about those fights I take it for granted that Whitaker, Hearns and Lewis won, I don't even refer to those fights as draws.

You could add Fenech-Nelson I to thast list too.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 07 Sep 2007, 17:52

Ezzard wrote:You could add Fenech-Nelson I to thast list too.

Yeah, definitely.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Sep 2007, 19:38

I Feel Fine wrote:Duran-Buchanan was a great performance, but Duran had flaws then that DeJesus was able to exploit that Buchanan was not able to. By the second and third DeJesus fights Duran was a more complete fighter, and those weaknesses were no longer there for DeJesus to exploit. Duran was a more complete fighter, hence your claim that he was "at his best" in the first fight is inaccurate.

No one is taking credit away from DeJesus, but you're going overboard. It was neither an underrated win nor a win over the best Duran.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree, since we're going in circles.

All I can say here is that the DeJesus that beat Duran that night would have beaten any lightweight in history. He was on point that night in the Garden. Duran was at his best, he was in his 20s, in his prime and trained for the fight. Willie Pep at his best lost to Sammy Angott. There is no shame in that. Everybody loses

What happened also in the second fight with Duran was that he tried to knock Duran out instead of moving side to side like he did in the rfist fight. The second mistake DeJesus made was that he went to Panama to try to take Duran's title. The DeJesus win over Duran is UNDERRATED TO ME.