George Benton.
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer
Holly Mims.
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer
Joey Archer.
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer
Three outsanding Middleweights from the same era who all fought some of the greatest Middleweights and Welterweights of the modern era. All three fighters have some oustanding victories on their records yet none of the ever managed to win a World Title. In fact only Archer got a title shot which was quite remarkable really.
So how do you rate these three highly skilled craftsmen?
Rank these three Middleweights.
Re: Rank these three Middleweights.
Benton was run by the mob in Philadelphia.
He was used as a policeman (a fighter used to clear the way of dangerous challengers for those holding the title). Otherwise he didn't get any fights.
Once he was through they let him fight more often.
He was one of the most skilled fighters of his time.
He bragged that he smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day while he was fighting.
His style was mostly hidden, in close fighting.
His fight with Rubin Carter was a fake. Benton stood and posed and let Carter poke a jab at him and "win" a decision. Then Carter got a title fight against Giardello. Benton was obviously following instructions in that fight.
His career ended when he was shot in the back a number of times while walking down the street in Philly.
Since he was cheated out of his own career during his prime years, he had contempt for the kids he later trained who won the more recent cheese titles.
Mims was supposedly from Washington DC. He was actually run by people from Chicago.
That is why he he could't even win the decision in a fight he clearly won against Giardello in his own supposed home town of Washington, DC.
As a young fighter Mims beat Sugar Ray Robinson in the very next fight Robinson had after winning the middleweight title from LaMotta. They gave Robinson the stinkweed "decision."
That was the worst mistake Mims could have made. After that he was avoided like the plague.
Many of the fights he had on TV were fights he took as a subsitute with less than a week's notice (against Griffith, Carter and several others).
Mims knocked Rubin Carter down and beat him thoroughly and they gave Carter the decision.
Carter did not belong in the same ring with Benton or Mims (or Dick Tiger or Giardello).
Archer doesn't really belong in the group with Benton and Mims. Archer was white. He got two title fights.
Benton and Mims would never get a title fight if they lived to be 100 years old.
He was used as a policeman (a fighter used to clear the way of dangerous challengers for those holding the title). Otherwise he didn't get any fights.
Once he was through they let him fight more often.
He was one of the most skilled fighters of his time.
He bragged that he smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day while he was fighting.
His style was mostly hidden, in close fighting.
His fight with Rubin Carter was a fake. Benton stood and posed and let Carter poke a jab at him and "win" a decision. Then Carter got a title fight against Giardello. Benton was obviously following instructions in that fight.
His career ended when he was shot in the back a number of times while walking down the street in Philly.
Since he was cheated out of his own career during his prime years, he had contempt for the kids he later trained who won the more recent cheese titles.
Mims was supposedly from Washington DC. He was actually run by people from Chicago.
That is why he he could't even win the decision in a fight he clearly won against Giardello in his own supposed home town of Washington, DC.
As a young fighter Mims beat Sugar Ray Robinson in the very next fight Robinson had after winning the middleweight title from LaMotta. They gave Robinson the stinkweed "decision."
That was the worst mistake Mims could have made. After that he was avoided like the plague.
Many of the fights he had on TV were fights he took as a subsitute with less than a week's notice (against Griffith, Carter and several others).
Mims knocked Rubin Carter down and beat him thoroughly and they gave Carter the decision.
Carter did not belong in the same ring with Benton or Mims (or Dick Tiger or Giardello).
Archer doesn't really belong in the group with Benton and Mims. Archer was white. He got two title fights.
Benton and Mims would never get a title fight if they lived to be 100 years old.
...decagon....fighters aren't IN the mob...the mob gets into THEM...
holly mims wore handcuffs more often than jimmy cagney did in all of his movies put together...
..when he was allowed to he showed he could punch as well as being such a good tactician. an example...a hotshot named willie troy was coming along and was pegged as a sure-thing future champion, and he wasn't a bad fighter. he was tossed in against mims who completley outboxed him, gave him a lesson, really, before knocking him out. and that was the beginnning of end of the willie troy bubble bursting.
holly mims wore handcuffs more often than jimmy cagney did in all of his movies put together...
..when he was allowed to he showed he could punch as well as being such a good tactician. an example...a hotshot named willie troy was coming along and was pegged as a sure-thing future champion, and he wasn't a bad fighter. he was tossed in against mims who completley outboxed him, gave him a lesson, really, before knocking him out. and that was the beginnning of end of the willie troy bubble bursting.
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Martin Sosa Cameron
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 19:44
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Martin Sosa Cameron
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 19:44
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
Re: Rank these three Middleweights.
Do you mean Archer doesn't belong in this group for ability reasons or social/political reasons?granberry wrote:Archer doesn't really belong in the group with Benton and Mims. Archer was white. He got two title fights.
When I made this thread I was purely thinking on an ability level.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Joey Archer, NY's battling Irishman, failed twice in title shots against Emile Griffith....but beated the likes of Dick Tiger, an older Sugar Ray Robinson, Rubin Hurricane Carter, and Holly Mims (to name a few).
Holly Mims lost to Carter, Archer, Griffith, Dick Tiger, Joey Giardello, Sugar Ray Robinson, Rocky Castellani...but defeated a young Jimmy Ellis (same Ellis who fought Frazier, Ali, etc), Spider Webb, Milo Savage, Charley Green, to name a few.
George Benton defeated Jimmy Ellis, Joey Giardello, Holly Mims, Johnny Morris (for the Pennsylvania State title) but he also lost to Mims, Rubin Carter, Charley Joseph, Henry Hank...
In short, my list goes as:
1. Mims
2. Archer
3.Benton
Holly Mims lost to Carter, Archer, Griffith, Dick Tiger, Joey Giardello, Sugar Ray Robinson, Rocky Castellani...but defeated a young Jimmy Ellis (same Ellis who fought Frazier, Ali, etc), Spider Webb, Milo Savage, Charley Green, to name a few.
George Benton defeated Jimmy Ellis, Joey Giardello, Holly Mims, Johnny Morris (for the Pennsylvania State title) but he also lost to Mims, Rubin Carter, Charley Joseph, Henry Hank...
In short, my list goes as:
1. Mims
2. Archer
3.Benton
..deco...i'm not glorifying guys who threw fights or taking away from the vast majority of those who didn't. just pointing out that many were victims of circumstances, sometimes beyond their control.
two contrasting cases...jake lamotta was given a shot at the middle title only because he agreed to tank it against billy fox.
when frankie carbo made an offer to sugar ray robinson ...sugar to throw the first fight against lamotta for the title..jake to throw the second...and the third be on the level...the sugar man said to tell jake " to keep his guard up and his ass off the floor." there is no indication that lamotta had anything to do this.
very early in his career, but he was still making a name for himself, ezzard charles scored a knockout. in the dressing room he raised hell...saying he didn't hit the guy that hard and demanded to know if anyone in his camp had done business. only after he was convinced that his opponent was just taking the easy way out did ezzard calm down.
two contrasting cases...jake lamotta was given a shot at the middle title only because he agreed to tank it against billy fox.
when frankie carbo made an offer to sugar ray robinson ...sugar to throw the first fight against lamotta for the title..jake to throw the second...and the third be on the level...the sugar man said to tell jake " to keep his guard up and his ass off the floor." there is no indication that lamotta had anything to do this.
very early in his career, but he was still making a name for himself, ezzard charles scored a knockout. in the dressing room he raised hell...saying he didn't hit the guy that hard and demanded to know if anyone in his camp had done business. only after he was convinced that his opponent was just taking the easy way out did ezzard calm down.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
..deco....not sure to what you're referring to.....i didn't rank these fighters in any order...not benton above archer or vice versa..or holly mims either.
re: homicide....WHAT!!!!! hey...some people on this forum might not realize your marciano/cockell post was a joke!!!! the mob VERSUS marciano!!!!
re: homicide....WHAT!!!!! hey...some people on this forum might not realize your marciano/cockell post was a joke!!!! the mob VERSUS marciano!!!!
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
This is an interesting topic that KOJoe started. All 3 fought in the same era and were pretty even. They each fought a lot of good competition and won some and lost some. It really shows how much depth there was in the middleweight divison during this time and how often the top fighters were willing to fight each other.
I am going to rank them 1. Archer 2. Benton 3. Mims. However they are so close that you could really put them in any order.
I am going to rank them 1. Archer 2. Benton 3. Mims. However they are so close that you could really put them in any order.