OT, This is England

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 09 Sep 2007, 08:00

Picked Shane Meadows' latest film up on DVD on Friday. Meadows has done a # of films that are relevent to boxing fans. 24/7 had Bob Hoskins running a local boxing gym; DEAD MAN'S SHOES featured Gary Stretch as a thug; Meadows also did a short monologue film THREE TEARS FOR JIMMY PROPHET with the great Paddy Considine as a boxer who's been locked up for killing someone with a punch.

Anyway, while THIS IS ENGLAND has nothing to do with boxing, it's one of the best films I've seen about the clan mentality. I can't recommend it highly enough and it is filled with humour and compassion for its characters as well as featuring some uncompromising violence.

Anyone seen it? Thoughts?

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 09 Sep 2007, 08:03

Autobarn wrote:Picked Shane Meadows' latest film up on DVD on Friday. Meadows has done a # of films that are relevent to boxing fans. 24/7 had Bob Hoskins running a local boxing gym; DEAD MAN'S SHOES featured Gary Stretch as a thug; Meadows also did a short monologue film THREE TEARS FOR JIMMY PROPHET with the great Paddy Considine as a boxer who's been locked up for killing someone with a punch.

Anyway, while THIS IS ENGLAND has nothing to do with boxing, it's one of the best films I've seen about the clan mentality. I can't recommend it highly enough and it is filled with humour and compassion for its characters as well as featuring some uncompromising violence.

Anyone seen it? Thoughts?

I expected more of it to be honest. It isn't a patch on GREEN STREET, FOOTBALL FACTORY or DEAD MANS SHOES: The first two of which I feel give a good insight into the clan mentality. I didn't even think it provided much insight into the NF or the Skinhead/Ska movements. Maybe it was not written with that intent. I just did not think much of it.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 09 Sep 2007, 08:09

I hear that GREEN STREET and FOOTBALL factory were ludicrous. Personaly I loved THIS IS ENGLAND. I mean, it never promised to be an epic of the subject. It's just a superb little drama, and it really has the '80s feel not to mention some wonderfully drawn characters.

Cannibal · Post by **Cannibal** » 09 Sep 2007, 08:38

I thought it was rubbish.

It had no third act and was pretty tasteless in some parts. It also had a ton of plot threads that were just picked up and dropped with no conclusion.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 09 Sep 2007, 08:41

I think it was an excellent (if not great) film. But I am a big Meadow fan. I was looking forward to seeing this film for ages being someone who is a 'Skinhead' and a lifelong fan of the Ska/2 Tone movement

Like Autobarn says it was not promoted as some sort of epic, that's not how Meadows works, far from it, he is very much in the traditional British kitchen sink drama mould. His films to me have the feel of those early Mike Leigh BBC 'Play For Today' of the early mid 80's such as Grown Ups and Life Is Sweet etc etc.

As for This Is England it brought back a lot of memories for me of the early 1980's. I thought the acting was outstanding by the character Woody in particular and also by the main character Shaun who really should win some kind of award.

The film had the music and fashion pretty much spot on with only a few small 'errors' but nothing the most hardcore skinhead/ska fan would notice. The film also did a fair job of making the point that not all Skinheads were or still are right-wing/racists a fact that the media in general seems to 'forget'.

As for Football Factory I thought is was quite poor and just plain silly at times and did nothing that had not been done several times before in ID or The Firm years ago. I just found it a bit shallow and lacked any sort of depth or real insight.

ArtOfWar · Post by **ArtOfWar** » 09 Sep 2007, 10:12

This Is England, Football Factory, Green Street and Dead Man's Shoes are all crap in my opinion. Green Street is especially gay and cheesy. Elijah Wood is the most unconvincing football hooligan I've ever seen and the other guy had a shocking London accent. I think he is from Newcastle.

The casting director should have been shot for that cock up.

I guess I just don't like that grimy British film making. The two lead characters in This Is England (Shaun & Combo) put in great performances though.

chesh · Post by **chesh** » 09 Sep 2007, 14:23

I agree with Auto and KOJoe about the great quality of Shane Meadows' films. I bought "This Is England" yesterday, watched it last night and enjoyed it greatly. It's of the same standard as "Dead Man's Shoes", "Room For Romeo Brass" etc., i.e. excellent. Regarding the "football hooligan" films, I quite enjoyed "The Football Factory", but found "Green Street" to be totally unconvincing. I'm in my late 40s and probably too old for the target audience these films are aimed at! By the way, have any of you seen "Dead Man's Cards" (not "... Shoes") with Paul Barber, Tom Bell (shortly before he passed away) and James McMartin (as an ex-boxer who becomes a doorman)? Highly recommended.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 09 Sep 2007, 14:27

http://video.google.com/videohosted?doc ... ion%3Along

link to the film.

i loved it.

"u filthy paki bastard"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC0J-RJM ... ed&search=

best scene ever tbh.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 09 Sep 2007, 15:18

Cannibal wrote:I thought it was rubbish.

It had no third act and was pretty tasteless in some parts. It also had a ton of plot threads that were just picked up and dropped with no conclusion.

The act of violence vs the black kid was what the whole film geared itself to. This was what all the tensiopns of the film led to. You can't heap anything on after that, because it would all be an anticlimax. Structurally and thematically, it would KILL a magnificent film. The violent scene makes the nasty skinhead question what he's done. It turns the main character off what he's been roped in to.

3 act structure is just a theatrical tradition. Directors like Meadows and the late Alan Clarke used different structures, for instance using things like "dead time" (realistic scenes where characters sit around doing nothing) and "aperture" (lack of closure), which carried over from European art cinema (which was a reaction against the rigid and stale structures of Hollywood cinema)...

It's a brilliant film.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 09 Sep 2007, 15:25

KOJOE90 wrote:I think it was an excellent (if not great) film. But I am a big Meadow fan. I was looking forward to seeing this film for ages being someone who is a 'Skinhead' and a lifelong fan of the Ska/2 Tone movement

Like Autobarn says it was not promoted as some sort of epic, that's not how Meadows works, far from it, he is very much in the traditional British kitchen sink drama mould. His films to me have the feel of those early Mike Leigh BBC 'Play For Today' of the early mid 80's such as Grown Ups and Life Is Sweet etc etc.

As for This Is England it brought back a lot of memories for me of the early 1980's. I thought the acting was outstanding by the character Woody in particular and also by the main character Shaun who really should win some kind of award.

The film had the music and fashion pretty much spot on with only a few small 'errors' but nothing the most hardcore skinhead/ska fan would notice. The film also did a fair job of making the point that not all Skinheads were or still are right-wing/racists a fact that the media in general seems to 'forget'.

As for Football Factory I thought is was quite poor and just plain silly at times and did nothing that had not been done several times before in ID or The Firm years ago. I just found it a bit shallow and lacked any sort of depth or real insight.

good points. it does use elements of social realism, but it also goes further than Mike Leigh or Ken Loach because Meadows is a) excellent at photographing his actors/getting good close ups and b) he has a brilliant feel for location and countryside. When ppl talk to each other it sounds very real, but at the same time there is some real visual style & doesn't look like a TV film.

Glad you metnion THE FIRM. This gets far more into the organised violence side of things, for those who haven't seen it. It's out on special edition DVD this month. Who can resisit Gary Oldman, Steve McFadden (Phil Mitchell) and Jim McDonald off Corrers as vicious hooligans?

I love MADE IN BRITAIN as well. Tim Roth is frightening in that film.

I hear that football factory and green street are2 of the most foolish and hysterical films of recent times.

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 09 Sep 2007, 16:34

hitman_hatton1 wrote:http://video.google.com/videohosted?doc ... ion%3Along

link to the film.

i loved it.

"u filthy paki bastard"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC0J-RJM ... ed&search=

best scene ever tbh.

Not seen the film yet but man that clip is like a lot of places up north - Ive lost count of the number of times i've been called a "paki bastard" by some little twat like the one in the film( I'm of indian descent - hindu). THey could have at least got a real pakistani to play the shop owner - that guy just looks caucasian with some fake tan! I wudn't exactly call it funny but each to his own hey!

Film looks good tho so I'll give it a gander nxt week....

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 09 Sep 2007, 17:18

black panther wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote:http://video.google.com/videohosted?doc ... ion%3Along

link to the film.

i loved it.

"u filthy paki bastard"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC0J-RJM ... ed&search=

best scene ever tbh.
Not seen the film yet but man that clip is like a lot of places up north - Ive lost count of the number of times i've been called a "paki bastard" by some little twat like the one in the film( I'm of indian descent - hindu). THey could have at least got a real pakistani to play the shop owner - that guy just looks caucasian with some fake tan! I wudn't exactly call it funny but each to his own hey! Film looks good tho so I'll give it a gander nxt week....

obviously i don't condone those actions.

just a film ain't it.

got that paki.

jimmy the gent · Post by **jimmy the gent** » 10 Sep 2007, 00:28

Agree with everyone that said it is a fantastic film. Infact all of shane meadows films are of very high quality, TIE, Dead man's shoes and probably my favourite A room for Romeo Brass. He knows how to get the best out of all his actors, and also knows how to get the emotions going, his dialogue is bang on. Shane Meadows and Paddy Considine are special.
The fella that said that it hasn't got a patch on Green Street, and football factory is obviously dilusional. whilst i concede that you may enjoy FF, i thought it was quite good, Green Street is truly a load of nonsense, and just for the record if you haven't already watched 'Outlaw' by nick love, please don't waste your time. It is and i say this with open-minded honesty a one star film, if that.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 10 Sep 2007, 01:45

serious wrote:Agree with everyone that said it is a fantastic film. Infact all of shane meadows films are of very high quality, TIE, Dead man's shoes and probably my favourite A room for Romeo Brass. He knows how to get the best out of all his actors, and also knows how to get the emotions going, his dialogue is bang on. Shane Meadows and Paddy Considine are special.
The fella that said that it hasn't got a patch on Green Street, and football factory is obviously dilusional. whilst i concede that you may enjoy FF, i thought it was quite good, Green Street is truly a load of nonsense, and just for the record if you haven't already watched 'Outlaw' by nick love, please don't waste your time. It is and i say this with open-minded honesty a one star film, if that.

Outlaw was a great film, and Im not delusional.

el_grande_mauro_mina · Post by **el_grande_mauro_mina** » 10 Sep 2007, 03:57

hitman_hatton1 wrote:http://video.google.com/videohosted?doc ... ion%3Along

link to the film.

i loved it.

"u filthy paki bastard"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC0J-RJM ... ed&search=

best scene ever tbh.

Best scene in cinematic history shitman, knocks the 'I culdda bin a contendah' in 'on the waterfront'/ 'I am Spartacus' into a cocked hat.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 10 Sep 2007, 04:03

I think everyone can accept the finest moment in TV history is Carlton dancing to Tom Jones in Fresh Prince.

boxingchat · Post by **boxingchat** » 10 Sep 2007, 04:42

Personally, from someone brought up in that era. I tnought is was inaccurate and complete rubbish. I was very disappointed after the build up it had.

Not a patch on Dead Mans Shoes which was superb.

boxingchat · Post by **boxingchat** » 10 Sep 2007, 07:26

MIKEE wrote:
Autobarn wrote:Picked Shane Meadows' latest film up on DVD on Friday. Meadows has done a # of films that are relevent to boxing fans. 24/7 had Bob Hoskins running a local boxing gym; DEAD MAN'S SHOES featured Gary Stretch as a thug; Meadows also did a short monologue film THREE TEARS FOR JIMMY PROPHET with the great Paddy Considine as a boxer who's been locked up for killing someone with a punch.

Anyway, while THIS IS ENGLAND has nothing to do with boxing, it's one of the best films I've seen about the clan mentality. I can't recommend it highly enough and it is filled with humour and compassion for its characters as well as featuring some uncompromising violence.

Anyone seen it? Thoughts?
I expected more of it to be honest. It isn't a patch on GREEN STREET, FOOTBALL FACTORY or DEAD MANS SHOES: The first two of which I feel give a good insight into the clan mentality. I didn't even think it provided much insight into the NF or the Skinhead/Ska movements. Maybe it was not written with that intent. I just did not think much of it.

How can you even mention Football Factory and Dead Mans Shoes in the same breath as 'Green Street' is beyond me. Green Street was shocking.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 10 Sep 2007, 07:59

Is it because it had something to do with your beloved West Ham

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Sep 2007, 08:12

"Realism" in film is a matter for semantic debate. What kind of realism do you want? Docu-style realism? Fly on the wall? "inner" realism? Old women washing up the pots and pans realism?

So it wasn't shot in Ken Loach kitchen sink style blah blah. But that's a dull turgid style anyway. For about 30 years Loach didn't even know how to film a close up. THIS IS ENGLAND is steeped in the fashions, attitudes and politics of when it was set and benefits from a semi-autobiographical approach - it's based on Shane Meadows's own experiences. Effects such as the slow-mo scenes, far from being stylistic overkill, gave a very good feeling for the sense of worth and sense of belonging that comes with being with a gang. Techniques like having his actors improvise scenes gives a sense of immediacy that always is lacking in a film that has to rigidly follow a script. It's a very convincing film, and a marvellous one.

Re bad taste - if you're making something about a tough subject and flinsh away, that's cowardice. The filmmakers had the courage of their convictions and thankfully followed it through. Like the director said, how can his film be an 18 based on 1 act of violence, and a film like 300 be a 15, with its wholesale massacre? Obviously, one is fantasy and less disturbing, but like most action films it treats human life in an exceptionally glip way. While THIS IS ENGLAND did the violence very well, made a subtle point, gave the messed up characters a different perspective on being a skinhead, yet the censors actually admitted the scene was done "too well" for us plebians.

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 10 Sep 2007, 09:34

hitman_hatton1 wrote:
black panther wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote:http://video.google.com/videohosted?doc ... ion%3Along

link to the film.

i loved it.

"u filthy paki bastard"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC0J-RJM ... ed&search=

best scene ever tbh.
Not seen the film yet but man that clip is like a lot of places up north - Ive lost count of the number of times i've been called a "paki bastard" by some little twat like the one in the film( I'm of indian descent - hindu). THey could have at least got a real pakistani to play the shop owner - that guy just looks caucasian with some fake tan! I wudn't exactly call it funny but each to his own hey! Film looks good tho so I'll give it a gander nxt week....
obviously i don't condone those actions.

just a film ain't it.

got that paki.

Get out of my shop!! Get out NOW!!

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 10 Sep 2007, 10:04

Terry D wrote:I used to work with Pakistani people who used the term 'Paki' all the time. They said they are trying to reclaim it like people did with 'person(a)' but are missing the crucially ironic 'a' at the end.

I think there is a line of clothing called 'Paki' with that logo on it. Hopefully white dyslexic fans of the 'Puma' clothing line don't get conned into buying the tops.

Nick Griffin is releasing a spin-off clothing article with the logo 'You effing Paki'. They are made in his own image; dull, badly put together (spakka eye as we called it in school), wet, only come in size podgy and look slightly perve. They also produce a lot of perspiration but that is dried by the hot air they also produce.

Pakistanis do call each other Paki all the time. Its not really a racial term like 'N-I-G-G-E-R' is. Its the name of the country they come from afterall and the Persian translation of Paki is PURE. Obviously the far right coined it as a racist, otherwise it wouldn't be. Paki is just the same as Poles, Brits, Frogs really.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Sep 2007, 10:19

PAKI is a racist term, because it was used not to denote nationality, but colour. Everyone who was from the Indian Subcontinent or thereabouts, including Indians, Sri-Lankans, Pakistanis, etc. were all called Paki's. Now if you are Indian (which most of those who came to this country from Uganda in the 1970's were), that is certainly offensive.

person similarly was a term which referred to all those of slave descent.

Grouping vast swathes of people from huge tracts of land under one umbrella term, is prejudicial, because you are lumping everyone in together based on nothing more than similar skin tone.

If black people want to call one another person, or asians Paki, well, that's their choice, and it is entirely different to me going up to one of my black mates and saying 'Yo Nigga, wassup' which could go one of two ways.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Sep 2007, 10:27

Terry D wrote:
Autobarn wrote:"Realism" in film is a matter for semantic debate. What kind of realism do you want? Docu-style realism? Fly on the wall? "inner" realism? Old women washing up the pots and pans realism?

So it wasn't shot in Ken Loach kitchen sink style blah blah. But that's a dull turgid style anyway. For about 30 years Loach didn't even know how to film a close up. THIS IS ENGLAND is steeped in the fashions, attitudes and politics of when it was set and benefits from a semi-autobiographical approach - it's based on Shane Meadows's own experiences. Effects such as the slow-mo scenes, far from being stylistic overkill, gave a very good feeling for the sense of worth and sense of belonging that comes with being with a gang. Techniques like having his actors improvise scenes gives a sense of immediacy that always is lacking in a film that has to rigidly follow a script. It's a very convincing film, and a marvellous one.

Re bad taste - if you're making something about a tough subject and flinsh away, that's cowardice. The filmmakers had the courage of their convictions and thankfully followed it through. Like the director said, how can his film be an 18 based on 1 act of violence, and a film like 300 be a 15, with its wholesale massacre? Obviously, one is fantasy and less disturbing, but like most action films it treats human life in an exceptionally glip way. While THIS IS ENGLAND did the violence very well, made a subtle point, gave the messed up characters a different perspective on being a skinhead, yet the censors actually admitted the scene was done "too well" for us plebians.
Is the word 'C*nt' used in the film?

'Dead Mans Shoes' got its 18-rating on the basis of the 'C' word being used and not the nose bone scene.

A lot of ratings are based on language and theme not just violence. It is all a bit British (no long-term thought and a bit slap-dash) and the odd case is thrown up where you do a double-take. 'Baise Moi' had the translated title 'F*ck Me' originally but the censors decided this was too near-the-knuckle and demanded a change to 'Rape Me'.

You can rape but you can't f*ck.

Personally I want to see the film 'This is England' but am dubious about Meadows, his films seem to revolve around the same key events. 'Dead Mans Shoes' is a classic but I turned '24/7' off very quick as it seemed irredeemably awful (not just for the poor title either).

I'd choose Meadows over Loach though. Never got into Loach's films despite my parents watching them often. The basic premise seems to be some dowdy British actress sitting in a cafe saying "I'm not yer muffer darlin' " before going home to Timothy Spall who is the downtrodden husband, his treatment in the film is directly in proportion to the size of his beard. Whispy = downtrodden. Very wispy = very downtrodden. I'd rather watch the crap 'Shameless' than that.

British films are a bit hit-and-miss anyway. For every 'DMS', 'Long Good Friday', 'Layer Cake' or something of that ilk you have a 'Beyond Bedlam', a Keith Allen film ('Beyond Bedlam') or a bunch of RSC actors shouting "C*nt' at one another for ninety minutes (even though 'Love, Honour and Obey' should have made them raise their games).

Is it worth a view this film?

The violence issue was discussed at the BFI Southbank talk with Meadows at the time of the film's theatrical run. It was the scene in which the black kid gets battered - but not killed. Local councils were trying to overturn the 18 rating to a 15 and it was the "nasty" scene that was the real point of contention. I'll have to watch again & see if they say "pudendum."

I like Meadows. 24/7 was a breath of fresh air when it came out but it hasn't aged well - seems to be daft for the sake of it, but it builds to an affecting climax - and Meadows went on to do much better with ROOM FOR ROMEO BRASS and DEAD MAN'S SHOES.

THIS IS ENGLAND is definitely worth a look. I think it's excellent. Meadows seems to be very much a regional director who likes to use semi-autobiographical elements. His tragi-comic approach (for most British filmmakers the funniest thing you get is someone burning their breakfast and saying "bugger" or a stupid fat Cackney showing off) and his compassion for flawed marginal characters is what I think will continue to make him a filmmaker worth watching.

boxingchat · Post by **boxingchat** » 10 Sep 2007, 10:28

person is offensive without doubt although Blacks use it on other blacks all the time, personannly I hate it. But, is a Paki really any worse than being called a Brit or a Scot? It is aftr all a reference to your nation of origin. Yank, Aussie, eyetie come on, this is PC gone mad.

Do Pakistanis find Paki offensive, I don't know, or is it the actual way in which the word is delivered.

The media makes these terms out to be worse than they actually are when the origins of the 'phrase' is studied.

For instance, that idiot on Hell's Kitchen the other night said;

"He used the word Pikey which I find offensive, some of my best friends are Pikey's" - Work that one out!!

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