Ken Buchanan was totally very underrated

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 09 Sep 2007, 23:36

I saw the documentary of Ken Buchanan and is one of the saddest ones I have ever seen. His mom died before he became world champion and when he won the title from Ismael Laguna in Puerto Rico nobody received him at the airport but 5 people, who was indeed his family

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Sep 2007, 23:49

Same happened to Liston after he KO'd Patterson. He expected a large crowd at the airport after flying home, but there were only a few people there.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 10 Sep 2007, 03:56

I think his relative lack of recognition at home was down to:

1: A lot of his fights in Britain, before he headed to the US, were at the National Sporting Club. This was a "members" dinner club, where the audience was quite small, and not exactly packed with the "ordinary" average fight fan. As a result he wasn't that widely known to the public - nor was he on TV to any great degree.

2: His greatest hi-profile fights were overseas - he had some superb wins in the UK, but as (1) above many were behind closed doors

Even allowing foir that, you'd imagine his home town would have welcomed him in some numbers at the airport. I can't really offer a view on that, beyond speculating that when he turned pro he opted to join the Eddie Thomas stable in Wales, and maybe there was a feeling in Edinburgh that he was no longer "one of theirs"? Or perhaps it was just a lack of PR at the time added to a low profile. Buchanan was adored in New York, but relatively unknown in Britain - somewhat like Jack Kid Berg.

Buchanan didn't do well as his career declined, as you probably saw in the documentary (I didn't see it). He fought on the unlicensed circuit a bit and then left it altogether. Very bitter over the years about Duran, and the way that fighters he considered vastly inferior to him had gotten greater recognition - and reward. He has of course "made it up" with Duran, and appears to be getting the recognition he deserves these days from the public.

For me (and there are threads about this sugnect so I'm not trying to start another) Buchanan is up there with Turpin, Conteh, Winstone, and Ted Kid Lewis as the Top 5 British Fighters of all time. A truly great fighter.

J

J

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 10 Sep 2007, 10:43

john2345 wrote: For me (and there are threads about this sugnect so I'm not trying to start another) Buchanan is up there with Turpin, Conteh, Winstone, and Ted Kid Lewis as the Top 5 British Fighters of all time. A truly great fighter.

What about Jimmy Wilde, Benny Lynch, Freddy Welsh and Bob Fitz?
Id rate Buchanan as the second greatest Scottish fighter ever behind Lynch, and in the top 6 or 7 British fighters ever. It is surprising he didnt have a massive following in Scotland, but its probably because most of his big fights where elsewhere. What was the TV coverage like of his career (bit before my time). If he fought now, hed be huge in Britain

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 10 Sep 2007, 11:53

dr_devious wrote: What about Jimmy Wilde, Benny Lynch, Freddy Welsh and Bob Fitz?
Id rate Buchanan as the second greatest Scottish fighter ever behind Lynch, and in the top 6 or 7 British fighters ever. It is surprising he didnt have a massive following in Scotland, but its probably because most of his big fights where elsewhere. What was the TV coverage like of his career (bit before my time). If he fought now, hed be huge in Britain

If I was going for a UK Top 10 then for sure I'd add Lynch, Wilde, Welsh, Driscoll - and indeed you could easily switch the order round and have any of those guys as the Top 5.

I'd still go for Buchanan over Lynch but I'm probably sub-consciously biased because he was "of my time" and I was able to follow his career (at least in the newspapers) as it unfolded. What I've see of Lynch on film shows him as a ferocious fighter with a great punch, and my uncles used to rave about him.

Re your query abour KB on TV, as best I can recall the only fight I saw him in "live" on TV was his losing effort to Charlie Nash, when he was way past his peak. I don't think he was on (British) TV all that much at his peak - though I was in and out of the country a lot in those days so I may have missed some of his live televised appearances.

If he was fighting today he'd deserve to be huge, but of course with most boxing being on sattelite/cable rather than terrestrial he'd possibly fall into the "Ricky who? Joe who?" category.

J

J

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 10 Sep 2007, 12:32

Dont forget Jack Kid Berg, he had a great career and fought many of the top Americans of the 20s and 30s... its good to see Buchanan finally getting some recognition these days...

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 10 Sep 2007, 18:43

dr_devious wrote:

What about Jimmy Wilde, Benny Lynch, Freddy Welsh and Bob Fitz?

Yes indeed.

Quite a list.

And Jem Driscoll.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 10 Sep 2007, 19:24

Duran broke his ass....he was nothing.

Bladder · Post by **Bladder** » 10 Sep 2007, 19:25

dr_devious wrote: Id rate Buchanan as the second greatest Scottish fighter ever behind Lynch,

I'd rate them both behind Bert Gilroy.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Sep 2007, 01:02

ringsider wrote:Duran broke his ass....he was nothing.

C'mon ringsider, let us not hat on the guy. He was a great fighter...He probably was not Jimmy Wilde nor Roberto Duran, but he was great.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Sep 2007, 02:24

I'd rank Buchanon in the same league as Alan Minter, to be honest. Had potential, always came to fight, but for one reason or another never quite made it in terms of recognition or over that extra hump to have solidified himself as being truly great to have been in the pantheon of legends...for every Buchanan theres always a Duran, for every Minter there's a Hagler, etc.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 11 Sep 2007, 04:39

HomicideHenry wrote:I'd rank Buchanon in the same league as Alan Minter, to be honest. Had potential, always came to fight, but for one reason or another never quite made it in terms of recognition or over that extra hump to have solidified himself as being truly great to have been in the pantheon of legends...for every Buchanan theres always a Duran, for every Minter there's a Hagler, etc.

Although Minter was a good fighter Buchanan was superior by some way. Better boxer, less prone to cuts, good ring generalship, and equally courageous.

I agree that in Boxing History terms neither achieved the recognition that they might have done. In Buchanan's case his "legacy" suffers to some extent from his loss to Duran and the arguments over whether he was really unable to continue after the low blow. Plus - as per the thread - he was a relatively low key figure in his native land, unlike say Hatton today, or Henry Cooper in Ken's time. And of course his career didn't really go anywhere after he lost the title (despite some good wins), and he tended to be seen as a bitter ex-fighter for much of the 80-90s.

I'm not going to argue that KB was one of the Top 5 Lightweights of all time (though he did have the talent to become one), BUT he is in my opinion one of the greatest fighters Britain has produced.

Minter by contrast was a bit unpredictable - liked wastching him, but you never knew if was going to get cut, or get dragged into a toe-to-toe fight that would go against him. I still think - at British level - that Sibson was a better fighter, and not just because he beat Minter. At each other's peak I think Sibbo would have beaten Minter every time. At Buchanan's peak, there wasn't a fighter in Britain who could be expected to beat him.

Just an opinion, of course!

J

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 11 Sep 2007, 05:10

HomicideHenry wrote:I'd rank Buchanon in the same league as Alan Minter, to be honest. Had potential, always came to fight, but for one reason or another never quite made it in terms of recognition or over that extra hump to have solidified himself as being truly great to have been in the pantheon of legends...for every Buchanan theres always a Duran, for every Minter there's a Hagler, etc.

Buchanan is 1 or 2 leagues above Minter. Beating Laguna for the title is a totally different kettle of fish than beating Antuofermo, and whilst Minter showed tremendous heart against Hagler, Buchanan gave Duran a much better run for his money

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Sep 2007, 05:29

I just saw his fight with Maurice Cullen for the British lightweight title. Buchanan gave Maurice a boxing lesson. He put him on the floor about 4 or 5 times and beat him the crap out.

I got his fight with Ruben Navarro, too. Buchanan had one of the best jabs in history, bar none.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Sep 2007, 05:31

Does anyone have the tape of Buchanan vs Velazquez of Spain? He lost the fight for the European lightweight title. How did he lost the fight?

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 11 Sep 2007, 05:56

elmersalsa wrote:Does anyone have the tape of Buchanan vs Velazquez of Spain? He lost the fight for the European lightweight title. How did he lost the fight?

Here's an excerpt from an article on KB from Maxboxing that gives some background to that fight.

"As good as 1969 was for Buchanan, is how bad 1970 began for him. Everything was gelling in the ring for Buchanan, but outside the ring that all was unraveling. Buchanan shocked British boxing by announcing his retirement, which was seen by the British press as a flawed plan for him to get out of the promotional contract with Eddie Thomas. Buchanan was serious however, having returned his British license and title belt, getting married and returning to his job as a carpenter. At age 24 it looked like a good boxing career had just been thwarted.

Eddie Thomas, and Buchanan's father, managed to talk Buchanan out of his retirement by consenting to have the dispute resolved by The British Board of Boxing Control. The Board voted in favor of Eddie Thomas. Buchanan reluctantly accepted the decision, and held to his word to return to the ring. He did so with a win over Vincenzo Pitardi, taking out his frustrations with a second round knockout. Next up for Buchanan was a European title challenge in which he was favored to beat Spaniard, and future world champion, Miguel Velasquez in Madrid for the vacant title.

Buchanan was 33-0, but about to lose his first fight amid the lingering resentment of having lost his his contractual dispute with Thomas. To his credit Velasquez pushed the action, and it was an action filled contest with neither man establishing clear dominance. The turning point came when Buchanan was the victim of a flash knockdown in the ninth round, but bounced up without taking a count. It swayed the judges for the ensuing rounds and Velasquez won a close and hotly disputed decision."

J

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Sep 2007, 06:14

I agree that Buchanan was a notch or 2 above Minter but Minter gets a really raw deal these days.

He was middleweight champion, not a belt holder. He had that tendency to cut I agree but he is underrated these days.

Finnegan apparently gave Hagler all he could handle in his 2 fights and it was cuts that really hindered him. I have only read reports as I have never been able to get a hold of any tapes of the 2 Hagler-Finnegan fights. Minter also had epic battles with Finnegan but perhaps fared better in these contests than Hagler did. Minter also did a better job on Antuofermo in many ways.

Minter was sliced up by Hagler in a great performance. Many see this and totally dismiss Minter as a nothing champion. Minter then lost a disputed decision to Hamsho and missed his chance of a rematch with Hagler.

Minter isn't going to appear in a top 10 MW list but he deserves more credit than he's getting.

Arbachakov · Post by **Arbachakov** » 11 Sep 2007, 09:43

Minter would have spanked Buchanan if Ken fought him anything like he did that other southpaw Jim Watt.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 11 Sep 2007, 11:48

Minter was a lame duck champion........

Boy is that ever true.

And don't forget he was a slapsy southpaw too.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 11 Sep 2007, 11:57

He hit hard enough to kill a guy.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 11 Sep 2007, 12:29

So did Ray Mancinni.....big deal......

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 11 Sep 2007, 16:08

I agree that Minter is greatly under-rated, and sometimes I wonder, if old Marvin Hagler would have taken it more "easier" on old Alan had he not opened up his gob and called Hagler a person before the fight

Minter would have spanked Buchanan if Ken fought him anything like he did that other southpaw Jim Watt.

And I dont get this analogy

considering Buchanan was a lightweight and Minter was a middleweight...

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 11 Sep 2007, 16:57

Antuofermo should have lost the title to Hagler in 1979.

He didn't do enough to win.

Lets not try to write our own version of Hagler history. I suppose Hagler "should da" kept his title when he was spanked by SRL?.......

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 13 Sep 2007, 15:55

Decagon wrote:A lot of the lightweights that preceded Duran were excellent: Buchanon, Ortiz, Laguna... don't forget Teo Cruz and Ramos, too. If Duran had debuted 5 or 6 years earlier, I doubt he would have had such a long, uninterupted reign.

Bullshit...The same would have happened to Sugar Ray Leonard, Carlos Monzon and Carlos Zarate if they fought in the 60s, then.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 13 Sep 2007, 16:07

Does anyone has the first Buchanan vs Laguna fight?

the other question is: How good is the book of his autobiography, "The Tartan Legend"?

I am fascinated about the life of this fellow. I would love to meet him in person one day. He had a boxing style that I would love to imitate and was as tough as nails. Never been stopped (literally) in more than 70 contests. Only the Duran fight you can count as stoppage but it was controversial. Was that punch in the groin or not? what you guys think?