Lennox Lewis Overrated?

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 12 Sep 2007, 02:43

There is a fair bit of talk on here about overrated Heavyeights but I wanted to focus on one in particular, Lennox Lewis.

He was good don't get me wrong but some people recently have been saying he is one of the best of all time. This has lead me to believe that Lennox is fast moving into the massively overrated territory...

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 12 Sep 2007, 02:55

He is one of the best of all time. That doesn't mean I would rank him top 5 all time at Heavyweight, but I think ranking him 5-10 is legitimate. In head to head matches I would favor him over a lot of great Heavyweights.

I'm starting to think that the term "overrated" is starting to become overrated. Not every fighter who gets respect is unworthy of it.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 12 Sep 2007, 09:40

Yep, Marlin I humbly agree with you...

Lewis is an over-rated boxer, and I believe that he always was (the British media hyping him up).... We like to think that he's "one of the greatest of all time" - especially nowadays when everyone believes that a prime Lewis would defeat all of today's boxers...

Personally, I haven't forgotten his loss to Rahman or the fight against Tyson (8 rounds to stop a slow, sluggish, rusty Tyson) or the Vitali Klitchsko fight....

1southpaw · Post by **1southpaw** » 12 Sep 2007, 11:23

what heavyweights would beat lewis then

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 12 Sep 2007, 11:29

That Klitschko fight gets on my nerves..... so he was behind on the cards but lacerated his opponent to win.... so what?

Gerry Penalosa was behind but won his fight, I dont hear nothing about that

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 12 Sep 2007, 12:53

MIKEE wrote:That Klitschko fight gets on my nerves..... so he was behind on the cards but lacerated his opponent to win.... so what?

Gerry Penalosa was behind but won his fight, I dont hear nothing about that

Yeah, that crap bugs me too...

Anyway I'd say that some people definitely do overrate Lewis, but I'd say a Top Ten all-time ranking of around 10 is fair.

The way some act as if he would've beaten Joe Frazier's ass or something seems completely outrageous to me.

1southpaw · Post by **1southpaw** » 12 Sep 2007, 13:09

well i think lewis would of beat jack johnson/jack dempsey/joe lewis/marciarno/schmelling/and most of the heavyweights today in his prime of course so he must be one of the greats ??????

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 Sep 2007, 13:11

I actually think on a head to head basis he falls to many I would rank below him in terms of accomplishments (although he could beat a couple who are higher). His relative brittle chin (which wasn't that bad but weak compared to other all-time great HW champs) and suspect stamina (which showed up in several fights and it's important to note he never had to go 15 rounds) would be big albatrosses vs many of the faster and durable HWs of yesteryear, but he's not a cakewalk for anyone.

Some people think b/c he was athletic and big he destroys all the smaller men of the past and some say he was just a glass-jaw. I'm not on either side but definetely feel some really over-rate his size in terms of fantasy matchups with past fighters. He showed balls and heart throughout his career, taking on all comers, and a good boxing acumen. I think the moment where he could've really pushed himself into that top echelon was the Holyfield rematch. In all sane eyes he won a very dull decision vs a lethergic Holyfield in the first fight. In the rematch he had a chance to really stamp his authority on a great but aged 37 year old champion. What happens . . Holyfield comes out with more life, Lewis again doesn't take many chances, and in the eyes of many (including myself) actually loses a close fight to the Real Deal. Great fighter but below the true elite. I think any ranking from around #10-#12 is justifiable.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Sep 2007, 16:47

It's interesting that you brought up the Holyfield fights. I think that Lewis actually came out better than he should have. He should have won the first fight and only got a draw. However, he should have lost the 2nd fight and got the decision. It was a close fight, but Lewis just kept pawing with his jab and really didn't land hardly anything significant. Holyfield would sporadically score.
Lewis probably should have been 1-1 against Holyfield instead of 1-0-1.

Lewis was also lucky to get a decison against Ray Mercer. At best he should have gotten a draw.

On the other hand, I thought the McCall fight was stopped prematurely. He should have been given a chance to survive the round.

Of course Lewis shouldn't have been knocked out by Rahman. However, it's doubtful many other fighters would have been able to take that punch. That he was hit by a punch like that is another story.

Still he had many wins over good (though not great) opponents. In most, he won easily.

Judging Lewis, it sort of how you want to spin it. If you want to always give him the benefit of the doubt, you could even rate him top 5. If you never give him a break, then maybe not even top 20. Objectively, I think soewhere either just inside the top 10 or just outside of it is fair.

markl · Post by **markl** » 12 Sep 2007, 16:56

Lewis has many fights that can be used to try and slam him.

Why most pick a fight where he took a man to a human butcher shop is beyond me.

Lennox beat Klitchko so bloody that they had to stop it. I was calling for a stoppage. People act like he would have won if they didn't stop it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he lost his life if it continued.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 Sep 2007, 18:08

I consider Lewis-Klitschko to be a very solid win for Lennox, esp. considering Lennox was pretty washed up by 2003.

The Boxing Enthusiast · Post by **The Boxing Enthusiast** » 12 Sep 2007, 18:12

I Feel Fine wrote:I'm starting to think that the term "overrated" is starting to become overrated. Not every fighter who gets respect is unworthy of it.

IMO,
TBE

theone · Post by **theone** » 12 Sep 2007, 18:26

Of course Lewis shouldn't have been knocked out by Rahman. However, it's doubtful many other fighters would have been able to take that punch. That he was hit by a punch like that is another story.

The knockouts by Rahman and McCall are overblown. Louis was dropped and hurt by much smaller guys who didn't hit nearly as hard. Lewis emphatically avenged those losses.

well i think lewis would of beat jack johnson/jack dempsey/joe lewis/marciarno/schmelling/and most of the heavyweights today in his prime of course so he must be one of the greats ??????

Definitely. Lewis lacks the hero worship element those fighters have.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 Sep 2007, 23:48

theone wrote:
Of course Lewis shouldn't have been knocked out by Rahman. However, it's doubtful many other fighters would have been able to take that punch. That he was hit by a punch like that is another story.
The knockouts by Rahman and McCall are overblown. Louis was dropped and hurt by much smaller guys who didn't hit nearly as hard. Lewis emphatically avenged those losses.
well i think lewis would of beat jack johnson/jack dempsey/joe lewis/marciarno/schmelling/and most of the heavyweights today in his prime of course so he must be one of the greats ??????
Definitely. Lewis lacks the hero worship element those fighters have.

Getting dropped and getting starched and put on queer street by one punch are two pretty different things.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 13 Sep 2007, 00:11

Lewis is like Larry Holmes, Ezzard Charles, and others who were greatly under valued in their time...I think Lewis is correct when he said upon his retirement, "History will be more kinder to me than my critics."

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 13 Sep 2007, 00:23

To me Lennox is on the No Man's Land in Boxing History. He doesn't really have a direct counterpart or rival (which wasn't his fault), doesn't have a real signature fight, he was ducked earilier in his career, he wasn't a boring fighter but he wasn't as scintillating as Holyfield or Tyson. His two losses weren't against great fighters but he emphatically defended them (something Tyson hasn't done). He reunified the heavyweight division, had a fairly dominant reign, he's a definate 100% Hall of Famer, but I have a hard time rating him on the top ten all time right now.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 13 Sep 2007, 04:55

He is definitely massively overrated by some (George Foreman springs to mind) who have him in the top 3-4 of all-time, sometimes equal No1.

He is massively underrated by others who call him glass jawed, and seem to think that his KO losses erase all the good things that he did in his career.

I personally rate Lewis No7 of all-time, which is mostly based on accomplishments. On a who beats who basis, I would rate him higher, as I think he would be a handful for any heavweight champion. Still, his lack of a career defining fight hurts his legacy. I totally agree with Dempyfire, that Holyfield II was his chance to assert his greatness, and he completely blew it (although I score the fight to Lewis by 2 points, he should have won easily).

theone · Post by **theone** » 13 Sep 2007, 06:54

Getting dropped and getting starched and put on queer street by one punch are two pretty different things.

The point is you have to have some perspective. If Louis could get dropped with one punch by fighters like Galento and Braddock, and staggered badly by someone like Conn, then those shots Rahman and McCall two big powerful heavyweights, probably knocks out Louis and a lot of other heavyweight greats as well. I cant really imagine any opponent Louis fought doing the same thing to Lewis.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Sep 2007, 09:45

theone wrote:
Getting dropped and getting starched and put on queer street by one punch are two pretty different things.
The point is you have to have some perspective. If Louis could get dropped with one punch by fighters like Galento and Braddock, and staggered badly by someone like Conn, then those shots Rahman and McCall two big powerful heavyweights, probably knocks out Louis and a lot of other heavyweight greats as well. I cant really imagine any opponent Louis fought doing the same thing to Lewis.

I strongly disagree. According to this logic Louis goes down for the count when hit by Sunday punches from both Baer brothers (including a hook from 6'6 Buddy Baer that sent Joe through the ropes) and power-punching Tony Galento, who's left hook I have no doubt was harder than any punch thrown by Hasim Rahman (who's not part. big but went through his whole career overly pumped up and musclebound from heavy weight lifting). But in reality, Louis takes their best punches, gets right back up and kicks their ass.

Louis had a damn good chin. He was never knocked out in his prime (people forget he was frikkin' 21 years old when Schmeling knocked him out after delivering a whole cargo of right hands on Louis's chin . . an age Lewis hadn't even turned professional yet) and took flush shots from a lot of very hard punchers during his title reign and was never in serious trouble.

Styles make fights. Punching power and size in regards to fighters over 180 lbs makes a loose correlation. Timing, speed, precision, torque/snap are all more important indicators.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 13 Sep 2007, 09:48

generic screen name wrote:To me Lennox is on the No Man's Land in Boxing History. He doesn't really have a direct counterpart or rival (which wasn't his fault), doesn't have a real signature fight, he was ducked earilier in his career, he wasn't a boring fighter but he wasn't as scintillating as Holyfield or Tyson. His two losses weren't against great fighters but he emphatically defended them (something Tyson hasn't done). He reunified the heavyweight division, had a fairly dominant reign, he's a definate 100% Hall of Famer, but I have a hard time rating him on the top ten all time right now.

Excellent post.

That sums up LL perfectly.

wsbuf · Post by **wsbuf** » 13 Sep 2007, 11:34

Time (reflection on career) does make him get better in my mind. I rank him 10-15 all time for now.
The way he evened out his losses impresses me the most.

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 16 Sep 2007, 06:01

dempseyfire wrote:
Louis had a damn good chin. He was never knocked out in his prime (people forget he was frikkin' 21 years old when Schmeling knocked him out...)

He was 22 and had already knocked out King Levinsky, Primo Carnera, Max Baer and Paolino Uzcudun the year before and shortly after his loss to Max Schmeling he knocked out another former Champion, Jack Sharkey.

So I think Joe Louis was in his Prime in 1936 (at least very near to it).

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 16 Sep 2007, 09:48

Lewis was good, no doubt, but to say he was an all time great is fanciful... for a start he fought in a weak era, and yet he still managed to get koed twice by very moderate opposition. He deserves credit for avebging those defeats but they are still there and cant be ignored!.
Also Lewis biggest wins over Tyson and Holifield came when both were past their best by some way...
Good but not great, Lennox was just too flawed and fought in too weak an era to merit a shout at greatness...

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 16 Sep 2007, 10:51

Friedie wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
Louis had a damn good chin. He was never knocked out in his prime (people forget he was frikkin' 21 years old when Schmeling knocked him out...)
He was 22 and had already knocked out King Levinsky, Primo Carnera, Max Baer and Paolino Uzcudun the year before and shortly after his loss to Max Schmeling he knocked out another former Champion, Jack Sharkey.

So I think Joe Louis was in his Prime in 1936 (at least very near to it).

22 . . .doesn't matter. Just b/c he'd defeated good fighters doesn't mean he was in his prime. At 22 he had not yet reached his physical prime nor peak level of experience/ring intelligence. By 1938-39 this had changed.

As many know, I'm not a Klitschko fan, but I'm not going to start claiming Wladimir was in his prime at 22 when he lost to Purrity.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:56

Louis got koed yes, but look at the guys he beat and how he dominated the division for over a decade, its foolish to even begin to compare Louis with Lewis!!...

8)