Outstanding Amateurs: Failed Professionals

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Sep 2007, 19:06

For a man with really 9 kick boxing bouts and 2 losses as an amateur boxer, Cobb had a decent career, tomato can or not.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 12 Sep 2007, 21:27

Casamayor had a great pro career. All of his losses are pretty close to pretty good fighters. He just had shitty management and is passed his prime now.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 13 Sep 2007, 04:58

Thanks for all the info on Hearns's amateur career. I was only posting based on what I had heard from others. The points made about Emmanuel Steward's training and him growing up, make a lot of sense.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 13 Sep 2007, 22:07

I think one of the greatest tragedies in boxing was Laszlo Papp, not that his career was failed, for he could have become champion of the world, just that it was cut short when he was near his peak, due to his country of Hungary calling off his career (it was a Communist country). He had three Olympic Gold medals, and never lost as a professional, picking up European titles...then it was over...

I reckon he falls in more with the "what if" category, but I rank him right behind Marcel Cerdan as one of the greatest European fighters of all time.

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 14 Sep 2007, 06:17

HomicideHenry wrote:I think one of the greatest tragedies in boxing was Laszlo Papp, not that his career was failed, for he could have become champion of the world, just that it was cut short when he was near his peak, due to his country of Hungary calling off his career (it was a Communist country). He had three Olympic Gold medals, and never lost as a professional, picking up European titles...then it was over...

I reckon he falls in more with the "what if" category, but I rank him right behind Marcel Cerdan as one of the greatest European fighters of all time.

Great call. From what I know and of the little footage I've seen of Papp, the guy was pretty special as a fighter

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 14 Sep 2007, 07:20

bollox wrote:
HomicideHenry wrote:I think one of the greatest tragedies in boxing was Laszlo Papp, not that his career was failed, for he could have become champion of the world, just that it was cut short when he was near his peak, due to his country of Hungary calling off his career (it was a Communist country). He had three Olympic Gold medals, and never lost as a professional, picking up European titles...then it was over...

I reckon he falls in more with the "what if" category, but I rank him right behind Marcel Cerdan as one of the greatest European fighters of all time.
Great call. From what I know and of the little footage I've seen of Papp, the guy was pretty special as a fighter

This point of view is very interesting; Laszlo Papp was one of the millions of communism victims; one of the greatest amateur fighthers of all time

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 14 Sep 2007, 07:27

Victor Avendano (Víctor Avendaño), the first Olympic Champion of Latin America (1928, LH), Argentinian, had a brief pro career but was knocked out by Jose Carattoli and he never was the same after that fight

locoxelbox · Post by **locoxelbox** » 14 Sep 2007, 11:05

Decagon wrote:I know, but in the amateurs, he was excellent. He easily could have won a second Gold Medal at Atlanta - in fact, he was favored to.

Casamayor has had a decent pro career and regarding his amateur career he was the 1992 Olympic Gold medalist but that was his ONLY major title as an amateur and he was NOT favored to win the 1996 Olympics.
When Casamayor went to the 1992 Olympics it was only because Enrique Carrion got injured so he wasn't exactly the favorite but an outsider being the 1989 World Junior champion.
Even though he won medals at many international championships he never won any GOLD medal again. At the 1993 Worlds he lost in the final to Alexander Hirstov (BUL). At the 1994 World Cup he lost to Falk Huste (GER) in the semis. At the 1994 Goodwill Games he lost to Ramazan Palyani (RUS) in the final and at the 1995 Worlds he lost in the first bout to eventual gold medalist Raimkul Malakhbekov (RUS).
Also at home he had difficulties beating the best domestic competition losing to Enrique Carrion, Daniel Regalado, Arnaldo Mesa, Lorenzo Aragon, Aldo Moreno, etc. In fact he won the Cuban Nationals only once in eight tries.
Before the 1996 Olympics he had some losses at the European Tour and certainly Istvan Kovacs and Raimkul Malakhbekov were the favorites for gold.

locoxelbox · Post by **locoxelbox** » 15 Sep 2007, 09:14

Istvan Kovacs was the 1996 European Champion having beat 1995 World Champion Raimkul Malakhbekov (who had beaten Casamayor at the Worlds). They were generally regarded as the two favorites above other fighters such as Vichai Khadpo, Alexander Hristov, Rachid Bouaita AND Joel Casamayor.
Of course when Casamayor turned pro they sold him as "he would've won the gold medal easily". Fact is he hadn't won an international gold medal for four years.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Sep 2007, 12:09

I've always thought Davis started out with a good chin in the amats and it was somehow compromised along the way. Can anyone point to a single event that may have caused it? Anyway it did serve as his ticket to a slow devolution in the Pro's.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 15 Sep 2007, 13:59

Decagon wrote:Mitch Green wasn't that great of an amateur. He won four championships on the State level, but isn't not like he was some sort of contender for an Olympic Medal. John Ruiz had a better amateur career than Green did.

Mitch Green was generally one of out top five heavies back in the late 70's to around 80. He lost to Marvis Frazier in the quarterfinals of the Trials that year.

markl · Post by **markl** » 15 Sep 2007, 15:26

While Howard certainly had a dissapointing pro career. I would have a hrad time saying Oliva would rank ahead of him.

It's actually quite silly to suggest it.

markl · Post by **markl** » 15 Sep 2007, 15:32

You were right. I have fonder memories of Davis from watching the olympics as a kid. I have also met him and he is a hell of a guy.

But his best win was over Tony Baltazar.

His draw with Taylor & disputed loss to Rosario should count for something. But he didn't WIN enough and although I would rate those two even based on Davis fighting better competition.

Your rankings were far from out of line.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 15 Sep 2007, 15:48

Good post on all the Val Barker winners Dec

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 16 Sep 2007, 13:40

Oliva had a better over all career than Howard Davis

Davis fought better competition but he never won those fights.

As Proos They both beat lots of journeymen. Oliva beat almost twice as many journeymen as Davis

The difference is that Oliva Won a professional world alphabet title and defended successfully on a couple of occassions.

Davis never did

locoxelbox · Post by **locoxelbox** » 16 Sep 2007, 17:55

Decagon wrote:Harold Lederman says that Floyd Mayweather should have gotten it.

Mayweather won a disputed decision over cuban Lorenzo Aragon (12:11) in the quarters and lost a disputed decision (10:9) to Serafim Todorov (BUL) in the semis. Todorov went on to lose to thai Somluck Kamsing in the final. I don't see how Mayweather should've gotten the Val Barker trophy?
In my opinion the trophy should've gone to Istvan Kovacs (HUN), otherwise to Maikro Romero (CUB).
Jirov got it because he beat quality opposition throughout the tournament but he was hardly the best technician.

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 18 Sep 2007, 06:42

Are you guys serious???? How can someone have a failed career if they became rated fighters or even champions? Casamayor has made millions, McNeeley, Wepner and Rademacher fought for titles as pros....Marvis Frazier made millions and only lost to the top two guns of his era...etc.

A real example would be Ben Black who was a national amteur champ and only had a few pro fights being flattened by Cleveland Williams in one but most of the guys you are mentioning are not in the failed category.

JMac · Post by **JMac** » 19 Sep 2007, 10:33

Michael Bent was an amateur world champ but didn't do much in the pros.

He did cost Tommy Morrison about 6 million dollars though. After Morrison beat Foreman, he was lined up to make 7 million aganist Lewis. Morrision's people wanted him to take a tune up fight with Bent first. They didn't realize that Bent had great amateur experience and only saw his bad pro record. He stopped Morrison in the 1st. When Morrison finnally got around to boxing Lewis, he only got 1 million instead of the 7.