Sonny Liston Overated

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 16 Sep 2007, 19:44

i read once on this forum that sonny liston was unlucky and in any other era he would of been a very dominant champ so how would liston do if he was in any other eras how do you think he would go

Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Micheal Spinks
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Sep 2007, 19:58

Liston, close
Liston, close
Liston, close
Liston, close
Liston
Liston
Toss up
Toss up
Liston
Toss up
Liston, close
Toss up

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 17 Sep 2007, 00:23

He was too good for Patterson and not good enough for Ali. The rest is conjecture.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 17 Sep 2007, 01:19

I Feel Fine wrote:Liston, close
Liston, close
Liston, close
Liston, close
Liston
Liston
Toss up
Toss up
Liston
Toss up
Liston, close
Toss up

I would probably go:

Liston
Liston
Liston
Liston
Toss up
Liston
Liston
Liston
Liston
Liston
Liston
Liston

Edited to include the 12th Liston... (thanks for pointing it out I Feel Fine)

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Sep 2007, 01:47

Either you're being sarcastic- I notice you're missing one- or you're overrating Marciano. I don't see how Marciano would ever have a better chance against Liston than a Holmes, who had a similar style to Ali, or a Foreman who could rival Sonny in power, a stiff jab, greater size and a comparable if not equal chin.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Sep 2007, 02:33

Yeah, I dunno, I'm still leaning towards toss up; what my last point was though is that whatever happens, win or lose, Foreman has a much better chance than Rocky does. JMO.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 17 Sep 2007, 16:02

If anything Liston is underrated due to his losses to Ali and the fact that very few people liked him. The truth is though that as well as power he had great technical skills, including one of the best jabs I've seen, he was also far from slow as is often believed. He would have destroyed Rocky imo if a faded Charles and 43 year old Archie Moore could give Marcinao so much trouble how would he beat Liston??.... Sonnys jab would tear him to bits for one thing but I actually think that Sonnys power would get Rocky out of there early... Rockys style was made for him...

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 17 Sep 2007, 18:08

Yeah but I don't know that Marciano goes 15 with Liston.

In terms of the guys actual question, I think Liston would clearly have a great chance to be a champion in any era. He just became champion at the wrong time.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 17 Sep 2007, 20:45

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 17 Sep 2007, 23:37

Decagon wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Yeah but I don't know that Marciano goes 15 with Liston.
But he'd have a better shot at doing so than George Foreman would.

With Rocky's heart and stamina I could never write him off.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 18 Sep 2007, 00:44

Liston has recently been re-discovered and appreciated as a misunderstood champion and icon. He was no matter what anyone
says a bully, a criminal and a man who was avoided for a long time
but who ultimately was exposed by Ali.

Liston had some great fights after he lost the title, and always had
a punchers chance. His jab was great and active, but he often reached
and over extended with it. His footwork was methodic and murderer like
as he hunted down his prey. His chin seemed solid...should we count the KO in the Ali rematch ?? His stamina was always there when it counted. He did have his limits though, a good mover would always be a problem for him.

I love to watch Liston and I think he would be a tough fight in any era.

But I do not think he is the end all when it comes to some of the other
guys listed.

As for him versus Marciano, tough fight. Rocky never faced anyone who used there size with good fundamentals. I could imagine Liston opening up some swelling and cuts on Rocky's face. But late in the fight the constant pressure and mauling would slow Liston up. It would most likely be a bloody and exciting affair.

Pick a winner anyone. I am inclined to say Liston, BUT I would never count the Rock out.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 18 Sep 2007, 01:58

I wouldn't count Marciano out, but I would say Foreman would give Liston a more competitive fight. Whether Rocky lasts longer or not is something else. But again, just my opinion.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 18 Sep 2007, 04:35

Liston versus

Johnson - Johnson
Dempsey - Liston (just)
Tunney - Tunney (just)
Louis - Louis
Marciano - Liston
Frazier - Liston
Foreman - Liston
Holmes - Holmes
Micheal Spinks - Liston
Tyson - Liston
Holyfield - Holyfield
Lewis - Liston

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 18 Sep 2007, 06:25

Liston was a good, dangerous fighter but he did quit in his stool against Ali and that is something most champs NEVER did.

Liston was a hard puncher but certainly not as hard as some others-- such as Foreman.

Liston was a good boxer but..... you get the picture.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 18 Sep 2007, 06:43

p4p1 wrote:i read once on this forum that sonny liston was unlucky and in any other era he would of been a very dominant champ so how would liston do if he was in any other eras how do you think he would go

Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Micheal Spinks
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis

Versus Johnson - Johnson on points.

Versus Dempsey - Liston on points.

Versus Tunney - Liston on points.

Versus Louis - Louis on points.

Versus Marciano - Liston on points.

Versus Frazier - Liston on points.

Versus Foreman - Liston on points.

Versus Holmes - Holmes on points.

Versus M Spinks - Liston by TKO.

Versus Tyson - Liston by TKO.

Versus Holyfield - Liston on points (hard to call).

Versus Lewis - Lewis on points (but could go the other way if Lewis was reckless like he was from 89 - 94.).

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 18 Sep 2007, 06:47

do you guys thing that liston deserves to be in the hall of fame obviosly he was very good but he only had 1 winning defence of his title is the HOF crendentials achievement or ability if it is on ability i am sure there are lots of fighter that could of been alot better but wern't naseem hamed is one wot are the qualities they look for in the HOF

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 18 Sep 2007, 06:51

p4p1 wrote:do you guys thing that liston deserves to be in the hall of fame obviosly he was very good but he only had 1 winning defence of his title is the HOF crendentials achievement or ability if it is on ability i am sure there are lots of fighter that could of been alot better but wern't naseem hamed is one wot are the qualities they look for in the HOF

That's a great question.

He was undoubtedly a good fighter, but he probably does not warrant an HOF place.

It's a tough call because there are fighters with less ability than Liston who are worthy contenders because they achieved more.

To be fair to Liston, he would have been the champ a lot sooner had Floyd Patterson's handlers not been terrified of putting Floyd in the ring with Sonny.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 18 Sep 2007, 07:01

Liston beat all the top contenders of his day and has impressive skills. I think he has the perfect style to beat most of the aggressive ATG HW's. The jab was a sledge hammer and he has power in both hands.

I think Ali would always be favourite to beat him but there's no doubt that Liston was past his best and had a long lay off from the ring for the fight with Ali. It's a shame the 2nd fight got postponed because Liston was in great shape for the rematch and was apparently ready to go. I think he'd have put up a much better fight. Ali would win but it would have been nice to see him pushed and tested.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 18 Sep 2007, 09:22

Decagon wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Yeah but I don't know that Marciano goes 15 with Liston.
But he'd have a better shot at doing so than George Foreman would.

You must be joking, would Archie Moore have floored Foreman??... I very much doubt it...

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Sep 2007, 09:30

I'll take the non confrontational approach and just say I concur with Enrique.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 18 Sep 2007, 09:37

Seamus wrote:I'll take the non confrontational approach and just say I concur with Enrique.

Seamus

I'd noticed in other threads that you don't rate Liston. What's your main gripe with him?

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 18 Sep 2007, 09:37

Consider his losses for a moment...

1. Marty Marshall - Liston suffered a broken jaw midway through the bout. I've never seen a boxer fight at 100% of even close to it with a broken jaw and one who can finish a bout with a broken jaw suffered so early is admirable.
2. Muhammad Ali 1 - Ali was ready to quit. A fight that was dead even on the cards. One more round and this could have easily went to Liston. Injured shoulder or not.
3. Muhammad Ali 2 - I don't even need to say it...
4. Leotis Martin - Liston was winning on the cards and quite simply got caught. Martin also suffered severe damage to his retina and had to retire.

If anything, Liston is underrated. He could easily have shattered the enigma that became Muhammad Ali. Strange occurences both of those fights.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 18 Sep 2007, 10:04

Ezzard

My gripe with Liston is the way people go on about him being potentially one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. To put it as simply as possible he scored some impressive wins over the contenders of his day, but NEVER had a truly defining victory. Did he look good on film, yes, but a prime Mike Tyson looked way better, and just look how Tyson continues to sink in everyone's estimation on this forum. Still, I don't see Bert Whitehurst and Eddie Machen lasting the distance with Tyson.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 18 Sep 2007, 10:40

npal wrote:Consider his losses for a moment...

1. Marty Marshall - Liston suffered a broken jaw midway through the bout. I've never seen a boxer fight at 100% of even close to it with a broken jaw and one who can finish a bout with a broken jaw suffered so early is admirable.
2. Muhammad Ali 1 - Ali was ready to quit. A fight that was dead even on the cards. One more round and this could have easily went to Liston. Injured shoulder or not.
3. Muhammad Ali 2 - I don't even need to say it...
4. Leotis Martin - Liston was winning on the cards and quite simply got caught. Martin also suffered severe damage to his retina and had to retire.

If anything, Liston is underrated. He could easily have shattered the enigma that became Muhammad Ali. Strange occurences both of those fights.

I think that you can make the arguement that Liston is underrated (by some people) but I have problems with some of the excuses given for his losses.

1. The loss to Marty Marshall. Liston should be given credit for not giving up with a broken jaw, but that isn't an excuse for losing. That is like saying a fighter who is stopped on cuts shouldn't get criticized for losing. Having said that, the fight was early in Liston's career and shouldn't be held against him too much.

2. Yes, the fight was even on the scorecards; however it was obvious that Ali was the better fighter and should have been ahead on the scorecards.
Ali certainly wasn't ready to quit after the 6th round. He had something in eye and was blinded in the 5th round. He went back to toying with Liston in the 6th round. Liston wasn't going to last 15 rounds and he knew it. He should have went out like a real champion instead of quitting. He deserves to be criticized for quitting.

3. The second fight, you can't just give Liston a free pass if it's because you think he threw the fight. That should count as a 1st round knockout against him.

4. "Getting caught" is no excuse. However, I agree that the Martin fight shouldn't held too much against Liston since was clearly past his prime.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 18 Sep 2007, 10:45

I guess its the manner of the defeats to Ali that bothers many.

Sonny Liston Overated

Sonny Liston Overated

Re: Sonny Liston Overated