Sonny Liston Overated

[dempseyfire]

Ezzard

My gripe with Liston is the way people go on about him being potentially one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. To put it as simply as possible he scored some impressive wins over the contenders of his day, but NEVER had a truly defining victory. Did he look good on film, yes, but a prime Mike Tyson looked way better, and just look how Tyson continues to sink in everyone's estimation on this forum. Still, I don't see Bert Whitehurst and Eddie Machen lasting the distance with Tyson.

Machen would've given Tyson fits. He was a level above Quick Tillis.

['Rocket'Rigby]

i read once on this forum that sonny liston was unlucky and in any other era he would of been a very dominant champ so how would liston do if he was in any other eras how do you think he would go

Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Micheal Spinks
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis

Johnson - I think Johnson takes this despite Liston being the aggressor. Johnson by wide decision.

Dempsey - I actually fancy Liston and having always liked Dempsey I thought instincts would go with him but I just fancy Liston being able to score some solid knock downs and taking Dempsey on points.

Tunney - I think Tunney would eventually wilt under Liston's attacks and go out in a mid round KO, round 6, 7, or 8

Louis - I think this is the most interesting match up, Louis may lose this by KO or take it on points. I can't decide who would get on top and stay there. My gut tells me that Liston takes Louis to points but Louis has managed to ease into a good lead in the latter rounds.

Marciano - Under no circumstances does Marciano lose this fight. No matter what Liston is capable of, Marciano would have been prepared as always to out-work and out-stay any opponent. Marciano by late KO.

Frazier - Frazier could take a shot and I am pretty sure he could manage Liston's power in an early exchange, but Liston with something in reserve takes out Frazier later. (Frazier would win the re-match)

Foreman - I'm afraid this would just turn out like Foreman v Frazier, but Liston wouldn't come back for a re-match.

Holmes - I think Liston had enough in him to beat Holmes, but he would need to get past his jab. If Liston could get in an exchange with Holmes and Holmes would make this mistake once and once only going out by KO in whatever round it happens. Other than that Holmes takes a boring UD.

Micheal Spinks - Spinks would get too roughed up by Liston too early and would go out in the 4th or 5th round.

Tyson - Not the exciting match up it sounds, Tyson takes Liston early maybe even 1st round, 2nd round only if makes it through the 1st.

Holyfield - Holy would handle Liston pretty much as he did Tyson, good solid defense, giving clean hard shots and would take Liston out maybe 11th or 12th.

Lewis - I would LIKE, REALLY LIKE to say Liston wins this. But the Lion within Lewis would take this by cowering and thrusting his jab into Liston's face all night long, taking an extremely borefest of a decision on points. Liston's only chance would be for Lewis to come out of retirement, grow some balls, fight Vitali, Vitali would pound Lewis so hard, he knocks him back into the 1960's where Liston could then feast on his bones. Seriously, Liston rips Lewis apart and feeds his remains to Mike Tyson.



Rocket
______
Molon Labe!

[dempseyfire]

i read once on this forum that sonny liston was unlucky and in any other era he would of been a very dominant champ so how would liston do if he was in any other eras how do you think he would go

Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Micheal Spinks
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis

Johnson - I think Johnson takes this despite Liston being the aggressor. Johnson by wide decision.

Dempsey - I actually fancy Liston and having always liked Dempsey I thought instincts would go with him but I just fancy Liston being able to score some solid knock downs and taking Dempsey on points.

Tunney - I think Tunney would eventually wilt under Liston's attacks and go out in a mid round KO, round 6, 7, or 8

Louis - I think this is the most interesting match up, Louis may lose this by KO or take it on points. I can't decide who would get on top and stay there. My gut tells me that Liston takes Louis to points but Louis has managed to ease into a good lead in the latter rounds.

Marciano - Under no circumstances does Marciano lose this fight. No matter what Liston is capable of, Marciano would have been prepared as always to out-work and out-stay any opponent. Marciano by late KO.

Frazier - Frazier could take a shot and I am pretty sure he could manage Liston's power in an early exchange, but Liston with something in reserve takes out Frazier later. (Frazier would win the re-match)

Foreman - I'm afraid this would just turn out like Foreman v Frazier, but Liston wouldn't come back for a re-match.

Holmes - I think Liston had enough in him to beat Holmes, but he would need to get past his jab. If Liston could get in an exchange with Holmes and Holmes would make this mistake once and once only going out by KO in whatever round it happens. Other than that Holmes takes a boring UD.

Micheal Spinks - Spinks would get too roughed up by Liston too early and would go out in the 4th or 5th round.

Tyson - Not the exciting match up it sounds, Tyson takes Liston early maybe even 1st round, 2nd round only if makes it through the 1st.

Holyfield - Holy would handle Liston pretty much as he did Tyson, good solid defense, giving clean hard shots and would take Liston out maybe 11th or 12th.

Lewis - I would LIKE, REALLY LIKE to say Liston wins this. But the Lion within Lewis would take this by cowering and thrusting his jab into Liston's face all night long, taking an extremely borefest of a decision on points. Liston's only chance would be for Lewis to come out of retirement, grow some balls, fight Vitali, Vitali would pound Lewis so hard, he knocks him back into the 1960's where Liston could then feast on his bones. Seriously, Liston rips Lewis apart and feeds his remains to Mike Tyson.



Rocket
______
Molon Labe!

If a 35 year old overweight Ray Mercer arguably beats Lewis, then a prime Liston has a field day with him. Liston had a better much harder jab, better defense, better body attack, and importantly better chin.

From a styles standpoint very few HWs match up well to Liston. Only Ali, Louis, Johnson, and MAYBE Dempsey and Holmes I see being able to take him. I like Frazier and Marciano a lot but they play right into Liston's hands. Tyson knocks Liston out in the 1st? WTF??? Liston would take Tyson's heart and feed it to him. Liston (an iron-chinned jabber with power) is Tyson's worst nightmare.

['Rocket'Rigby]

i read once on this forum that sonny liston was unlucky and in any other era he would of been a very dominant champ so how would liston do if he was in any other eras how do you think he would go

Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Micheal Spinks
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis

Johnson - I think Johnson takes this despite Liston being the aggressor. Johnson by wide decision.

Dempsey - I actually fancy Liston and having always liked Dempsey I thought instincts would go with him but I just fancy Liston being able to score some solid knock downs and taking Dempsey on points.

Tunney - I think Tunney would eventually wilt under Liston's attacks and go out in a mid round KO, round 6, 7, or 8

Louis - I think this is the most interesting match up, Louis may lose this by KO or take it on points. I can't decide who would get on top and stay there. My gut tells me that Liston takes Louis to points but Louis has managed to ease into a good lead in the latter rounds.

Marciano - Under no circumstances does Marciano lose this fight. No matter what Liston is capable of, Marciano would have been prepared as always to out-work and out-stay any opponent. Marciano by late KO.

Frazier - Frazier could take a shot and I am pretty sure he could manage Liston's power in an early exchange, but Liston with something in reserve takes out Frazier later. (Frazier would win the re-match)

Foreman - I'm afraid this would just turn out like Foreman v Frazier, but Liston wouldn't come back for a re-match.

Holmes - I think Liston had enough in him to beat Holmes, but he would need to get past his jab. If Liston could get in an exchange with Holmes and Holmes would make this mistake once and once only going out by KO in whatever round it happens. Other than that Holmes takes a boring UD.

Micheal Spinks - Spinks would get too roughed up by Liston too early and would go out in the 4th or 5th round.

Tyson - Not the exciting match up it sounds, Tyson takes Liston early maybe even 1st round, 2nd round only if makes it through the 1st.

Holyfield - Holy would handle Liston pretty much as he did Tyson, good solid defense, giving clean hard shots and would take Liston out maybe 11th or 12th.

Lewis - I would LIKE, REALLY LIKE to say Liston wins this. But the Lion within Lewis would take this by cowering and thrusting his jab into Liston's face all night long, taking an extremely borefest of a decision on points. Liston's only chance would be for Lewis to come out of retirement, grow some balls, fight Vitali, Vitali would pound Lewis so hard, he knocks him back into the 1960's where Liston could then feast on his bones. Seriously, Liston rips Lewis apart and feeds his remains to Mike Tyson.



Rocket
______
Molon Labe!

If a 35 year old overweight Ray Mercer arguably beats Lewis, then a prime Liston has a field day with him. Liston had a better much harder jab, better defense, better body attack, and importantly better chin.

From a styles standpoint very few HWs match up well to Liston. Only Ali, Louis, Johnson, and MAYBE Dempsey and Holmes I see being able to take him. I like Frazier and Marciano a lot but they play right into Liston's hands. Tyson knocks Liston out in the 1st? WTF??? Liston would take Tyson's heart and feed it to him. Liston (an iron-chinned jabber with power) is Tyson's worst nightmare.

Did you not read my full post, I finished by saying seriously, Liston rips Lewis apart and feeds his remains to Mike Tyson.

And as for styles I fail to see how anybody plays into Liston's hands, Frazier and Marciano coming forward with ferocious attacks from all angles would have Liston in a fit.

'Liston would take Tyson's heart and feed it to him', outside the ring maybe, but in it he would not be able to hide from Tyson and his uppercuts, Liston would be mincemeat. And I wouldn't class Liston as iron-chinned, seeing as Ali's KO punch was a phantom that put him out. Tyson's worst nightmare is hardly Liston.

['Rocket'Rigby]

If Liston and Lewis got into a jabfest, Liston would win.

Ok, Liston had a powerful jab but Lewis would beat him to it, 6ft to 6'5", reach difference, Lewis keeps throwing that all night.

[dempseyfire]

If Liston and Lewis got into a jabfest, Liston would win.

Ok, Liston had a powerful jab but Lewis would beat him to it, 6ft to 6'5", reach difference, Lewis keeps throwing that all night.

Liston 6'1, 84 inch reach.

Mercer 6'1, 76 inch reach and he embarassed Lennox with his jab.

According to the logic above Ali gets outjabbed by 6'6 Ernie Terrel.

If Tyson couldn't effectively get on the inside of Tony Tucker or Buster Douglas he doesn't get on the inside of Sonny Liston, and even if he did Liston had a great inside game and would put Mike into a shell once Tyson tasted Liston's short hooks to the body.

[Musashi]

Has Liston ever fought anyone Lewis' size? Someone comparable in skill.

[dempseyfire]

Has Liston ever fought anyone Lewis' size? Someone comparable in skill.

Mercer hadn't fought anyone with Lewis' size and skill before he fought him. You can make that argument with numerous matchups. On the flipside Lewis never fought a fighter with the skill level of Liston . . the closest would be a 37 year old Evander.

[Musashi]

Has Liston ever fought anyone Lewis' size? Someone comparable in skill.

Mercer hadn't fought anyone with Lewis' size and skill before he fought him. You can make that argument with numerous matchups. On the flipside Lewis never fought a fighter with the skill level of Liston . . the closest would be a 37 year old Evander.

Yeah but Lewis was notorious for underestimating and undertraining for opponents and in turn looking like crap. He was rather heavy (247) for Mercer. He hadn't at the time been that high except for Lionel Butler nor had he been that high again until Michael Grant 4 years later. When Lewis came to shine, he really shined. I'm thinking he might have been too big for Sonny. If Lewis comes in remotely out of shape, Liston gets to him.

[dempseyfire]

Has Liston ever fought anyone Lewis' size? Someone comparable in skill.

Mercer hadn't fought anyone with Lewis' size and skill before he fought him. You can make that argument with numerous matchups. On the flipside Lewis never fought a fighter with the skill level of Liston . . the closest would be a 37 year old Evander.

Yeah but Lewis was notorious for underestimating opponents and in turn looking like crap. He was rather heavy (247) for Mercer. He hadn't at the time been that high except for Lionel Butler nor had he been that high again until Michael Grant 4 years later. When Lewis came to shine, he really shined. I'm thinking he might have been too big for Sonny. If Lewis comes in remotely out of shape, Liston gets to him.

Why wasn't he too big for Mercer and Holyfield?? (both of whom were naturally smaller than Liston)

I don't buy the whole underestimating excuse. Lewis when he fought Mercer was fighting for his professional life. He fought at around 245 pretty much for his whole post-Steward career.

Liston doesn't have a style which would encounter problems vs a bigger fighter. If anything, being such a devastating body puncher, the bigger target would be to Liston's advantage.

[DaveV17]

edit

[Musashi]

Why wasn't he too big for Mercer and Holyfield?? (both of whom were naturally smaller than Liston)

Lewis near dominated the first Holyfield fight but had to settle for a draw. Now the second fight was a lot closer and Lewis came in slightly lighter. So I don't really know where to go to explain the second fight.

I don't buy the whole underestimating excuse. Lewis when he fought Mercer was fighting for his professional life. He fought at around 245 pretty much for his whole post-Steward career.

One thing that is for sure is that Mercer had an iron chin. Let's forget about the Kimbo Slice fight and Mercer's shameful career as of late. The man could take a punch. Lewis went toe-to-toe in this fight. That's not how Lennox is supposed to fight. That's not how Lennox Lewis dominates. He chose the wrong gameplan.

Liston doesn't have a style which would encounter problems vs a bigger fighter. If anything, being such a devastating body puncher, the bigger target would be to Liston's advantage.

Definitely possible.

[dempseyfire]

Why wasn't he too big for Mercer and Holyfield?? (both of whom were naturally smaller than Liston)

Lewis near dominated the first Holyfield fight but had to settle for a draw. Now the second fight was a lot closer and Lewis came in slightly lighter. So I don't really know where to go to explain the second fight.

I don't buy the whole underestimating excuse. Lewis when he fought Mercer was fighting for his professional life. He fought at around 245 pretty much for his whole post-Steward career.

One thing that is for sure is that Mercer had an iron chin. Let's forget about the Kimbo Slice fight and Mercer's shameful career as of late. The man could take a punch. Lewis went toe-to-toe in this fight. That's not how Lennox is supposed to fight. That's not how Lennox Lewis dominates. He chose the wrong gameplan.

Liston doesn't have a style which would encounter problems vs a bigger fighter. If anything, being such a devastating body puncher, the bigger target would be to Liston's advantage.

Definitely possible.

Lewis went more toe-to-toe with Mercer b/c Mercer closed the gap with his jab and forced Lennox to trade more due to the pressure.

[I Feel Fine]

if Liston doesn't belong in the hall of fame, a lot of people have to leave with him. He dominated the four best fighters of his division, including Patterson who is another hall of famer. Liston would never beat Ali, but not many Heavyweights would. Still, Liston was not a shot fighter. Liston on that night would have beaten Patterson, Machen, Folley or Williams. And Ali was not in his prime, either, he was before his prime. The cards were even, but Ali clearly should have been ahead and more importantly by the 6th round Ali had taken over the fight. I question whether npal has seen the fight.

[pound per pound]

Liston could have been champ in any era. When I say could, I mean just that. Sonny had it all except for speed, and true grit. The Ali of the 70's would not beat the Liston of the late 50's to early 60's.

[I Feel Fine]

There's no reason to think that Liston would beat 70's Ali. It would be tougher, that's all. There's a remarkable lack of respect for Ali on this forum.

[p4p1]

There's no reason to think that Liston would beat 70's Ali. It would be tougher, that's all. There's a remarkable lack of respect for Ali on this forum.

i think there is to..... if a 70's ali can beat a prime george foreman who destroyed frazier and norton in the same fashion liston destroyed patterson y doesnt a 70's ali stand a chance with liston i think any verson of ali takes liston up to about 1975 or so

[Ezzard]

From a styles standpoint very few HWs match up well to Liston. Only Ali, Louis, Johnson, and MAYBE Dempsey and Holmes I see being able to take him. I like Frazier and Marciano a lot but they play right into Liston's hands. Tyson knocks Liston out in the 1st? WTF??? Liston would take Tyson's heart and feed it to him. Liston (an iron-chinned jabber with power) is Tyson's worst nightmare.

I totally agree. The aggressive fighters are going to be at a big disadvantage against Liston.

[Ezzard]

[
And as for styles I fail to see how anybody plays into Liston's hands, Frazier and Marciano coming forward with ferocious attacks from all angles would have Liston in a fit.

Frazier couldn't do that against Foreman and Liston had better punching technique IMO and was generally more accurate.

I'm not sure Marciano fits your description. Tyson and Dempsey are more fitting. Tyson was too fragile mentally IMO but Dempsey has a chance.

[dempseyfire]

There's no reason to think that Liston would beat 70's Ali. It would be tougher, that's all. There's a remarkable lack of respect for Ali on this forum.

i think there is to..... if a 70's ali can beat a prime george foreman who destroyed frazier and norton in the same fashion liston destroyed patterson y doesnt a 70's ali stand a chance with liston i think any verson of ali takes liston up to about 1975 or so

Liston would never fall for the Rope A-Dope. He wasn't that kind of fighter. He preferred wearing opponents down with the jab, not wailing away like a crazy man. If Ali of the 70s has a chance vs Liston he needs to, as he'd say it, "put on his dancing shoes."

[p4p1]

There's no reason to think that Liston would beat 70's Ali. It would be tougher, that's all. There's a remarkable lack of respect for Ali on this forum.

i think there is to..... if a 70's ali can beat a prime george foreman who destroyed frazier and norton in the same fashion liston destroyed patterson y doesnt a 70's ali stand a chance with liston i think any verson of ali takes liston up to about 1975 or so

Liston would never fall for the Rope A-Dope. He wasn't that kind of fighter. He preferred wearing opponents down with the jab, not wailing away like a crazy man. If Ali of the 70s has a chance vs Liston he needs to, as he'd say it, "put on his dancing shoes."

no i dont think liston would fall for the rope-a-dope but the ali that beat foreman was still a great fighter and proved he could take some very very big shots

[Ambling Alp]

Tunney would have a decent chance against Liston. He was very fast on his feet, hard to hit, and was very smart. If you look at Liston's fights against Ali and Machen, he seems to have a style that would give Liston problems.

[dempseyfire]

Tunney would have a decent chance against Liston. He was very fast on his feet, hard to hit, and was very smart. If you look at Liston's fights against Ali and Machen, he seems to have a style that would give Liston problems.

I would agree but I do think this is one instance where the size difference would be too much. Tunney was really a Light HW who put on a few lbs later to fight for the $ at HW. Ali and Machen were real natural HWs (and Machen was forced to play defense their whole fight due to Liston's jab and pressure). If a washed up older Dempsey can catch Tunney and put him down, I see Liston catching Tunney with a left hook after keeping Tunney off-set with the long jab for several rounds and it's all over right there.

[I Feel Fine]

There was more to 70's Ali than just the rope-a-dope.

I agree alp, I think Liston-Tunney would be a close fight, but I do think Liston would eventually get to him.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

tunney does not match up well against liston at all