Who was the Greatest Light Heavyweight ?

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 30 Nov 2003, 01:36

One guy that deserves a mention as an underappreciated LH great is the crafty bull Victor Galindez...
I think he was one of the ten best of all time..

or he's at least better than Saad who is on a lot of peoples. top ten list

First man to regain a version of the LH title...

Thrived in a very tough era for light heavyweights....

I could see him giving Jones, Foster or even Moore a real tough fight

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 Nov 2003, 02:58

when i look over the names that have appeared on this thread I'm struck by high quality of the fighters and it gives a lot of credence to my contention that this underrated division is loaded with some of the greatest fighters of all time. great boxers, great punchers and great boxer punchers. when you start tossing around names like charles, billy conn, archie moore (my top three, but some would add others) you can make good arguments for any one of them as the best of all time at this weight class. loaded with great fantasy dream match ups....moore against foster...charles against conn..etc etc.etc.

crooked nose · Post by **crooked nose** » 30 Nov 2003, 03:31

For such an overlooked division, we sure are coming up with a long list of truly great fighters. I have to go with Moore at the top, followed by Charles, Foster, Jones, Spinks, Conn, Saad Muhammad. Although Burley deserves consideration, I think his best weight was middle. I think Burley lost to both Charles and Moore and beat Moore once before Archie was champ.

pugilisticprofessor · Post by **pugilisticprofessor** » 30 Nov 2003, 11:16

Not saying that he belongs in the list.
But a prime lt heavy Michael Moorer was a monster.
Sam Langford usuall y was 175 pnds but fought @ hvy.
I would pick him over almost everyone on that list.
Maybe even jones.
Its suprising that he didnt get much mentioning.
And for greb.
I cant say exactly how he would fare.
beacause there is no tape on him.
I have to see a fighter for myself to rank him in the list.
But langford does deserve reconigtion.

Pug

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 Nov 2003, 16:20

I agree on Michael Moorer. Moorer became boring as a heavyweight, but as a Lt. Hvy Moorer destroyed opponents. People always talk about Moorer's weak chin, but he was only knocked out by David Tua and George Foreman...something that happened to over 100 other boxers who faced those two...and Tua & Foreman are certainly two of the hardest punchers the division has ever seen, so getting knocked out by those two cannot really merit a weak beard. True he was knocked down several times by Holyfield, but he always got back up and fought until the referee stopped the bout. Again true he was put down by both Bert Cooper and Alex Stewart, two more heavy fisted guys one of which (Bert Cooper) had "Iron-Jaw" Holyfield on dream-street for a couple of minutes, so again getting knocked down by Cooper and Stewart is no disgrace, especially since Moorer got back up to knock out both men. Moorer is one of the better boxer/punchers in the heavyweights, so he certainly has/had the skills and definitely the power to compete with and beat any lt. hvy in history, especially considering the fact that Moorer was able to move up to the heavyweights and not only compete with the big men, but he beat them...Bob Foster couldn't do it and Tua & Foreman are certainly no Doug Jones & Ernie Terrell, who knocked out Foster. Even the great Archie Moore, who happens to be one of my all-time favorites failed when it came to the championship fights at heavyweight. Only Fitzsimmons, Spinks, Moorer and now Jones are the only lt. heavys to move up and win a heavyweight title. In my opinion, Moorer should be right up there with all the other great light heavyweights because on any given night, Moorer could beat any of them.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 30 Nov 2003, 21:20

zurdo wrote:One guy that deserves a mention as an underappreciated LH great is the crafty bull Victor Galindez...
I think he was one of the ten best of all time..

Galindez is easily (together with Jose "Chegui" Torres) the best light heavyweight from Latin America that I have seen fight. His no holds- barred and skilled brawler style coupled with his amazing heart and durability always made up for entertaining and dramatic fights when he stepped in the ring. I think he is often overlooked because his best years ran along those of his countryman Monzon, and also because most of his career he fought outside the U.S.

His epic battle against Richie Kates in South Africa (stopping him with one second to go in the 15th sustaining a terrible cut on his eye for more than 10 rounds), both of the Rossman fights, the succesful defenses against Eddie Gregory and Yaqui Lopez (twice), his 12 wins in 14 title fights, are the stuff great champions are made off.

Like Monzon, he also met a tragic death. He had taken up auto racing after he lost the title to Marvin Johnson, and while at the pits he was struck by a car that had lost control, instantly killing him.

crooked nose · Post by **crooked nose** » 30 Nov 2003, 23:05

Galindez was one of those fighters that i just plain disliked and always rooted against. I thought he was a fouler, rather crude, and held on to his title through political connections. Both decisions over Yaqui Lopez were questionable.

Broncano · Post by **Broncano** » 01 Dec 2003, 00:31

His style and personality made Galindez the sort of fighter many love to hate. Although not nearly as great a figure, he was somewhat of a Roberto Duran in that aspect. I've even sensed that from the commentators on some of his fights.
I also acknowledge the fact that the first Lopez fight was controversial, but in my eyes, eventhough it wasn't a blowout, Galindez clearlly took the second one.

Also, he was at the top of the light heavies from 74-79, at a time of great talent and depth in the division (Both Muhammads -Franklin and Gregory-, Marvin Johnson, Yaqui Lopez, Rossman, Conteh and also Dwight Braxton and Michael Spinks were starting to climb up) so I think it's unfair to say that political connections got him through 14 title fights.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 01 Dec 2003, 02:20

You can't really rate Moorer as a great light heavyweight ...I remember him being a great light heavyweight prospect who scored some eye catching knockouts and eventually became a pretty good Heavyweight who won an alphabet version ...but his best wins at LH were was Leslie Stewart, Frankie Swindell and Ramzi Hassan...hardly the stuff of legends...

By the same standard you apply To Moorer you could also call Jimmy Ellis a great light heavyweight after all he too moved up in weight and won an alphabet version of the heavyweight championship

barry · Post by **barry** » 01 Dec 2003, 03:49

No it doesn't mean that Jimmy Ellis would rate just as high. Ellis was missing a great punch, which will always make him an underrated fighter, not that he was a world beater, but how I view Moorer is that he fought several fights at Lt. Hvy (22, or 23…all knockouts) and moved up and won the linear heavyweight title as well as had a very good run in the heavyweight division, Jimmy Ellis went straight up to heavyweight from middleweight and won a bogus title without stopping by the light heavyweight division, so how could he be ranked at all if he never fought as a light heavy? I believe that had Moorer stayed at light heavy he would be on everyone’s top ten, probably top five list of light heavies. Sure, the list of Lt. Heavyweights that he fought certainly was no who’s who of the division, but Virgil Hill wanted nothing to do with Moorer when he was around and neither did any of the other top Lt. Heavies. You stated that Galindez strived in an era of great light heavies, which is true in the since that the era had a lot of quality Lt. Heavyweight’s, but with the exception of Eddie Gregory, Mike Rossman (who also TKO'd Galindez) and maybe Lopez the rest of the guys he fought were on par with Leslie Stewart, so how could his legend be greater than Moorer's...his exciting style of fighting? You also state that you think Galindez is certainly better than Saad Muhammad, which everyone has there own opinion, but Saad Muhammad in his prime knocked out guys like Billy Douglas, Ritchie Kates (before the 15 round), Marvin Johnson (who knocked out Galindez), and Yaqui Lopez. Off course he lost to Eddie Gregory, who Galindez beat. I’m not saying that Galindez is not a great fighter because he was, but personally I think that Saad Muhammad .vs. Galindez ends with Muhammad knocking out Galindez in ten to thirteen rounds. Of course no one will ever know, and that’s why we all get to have these useless arguments (which I often enjoy) about what if, or who was…the only way to know is if it actually happened in the ring!

barry · Post by **barry** » 01 Dec 2003, 04:00

By the way, here's my Top-Ten List:

1. Gene Tunney
2. Sam Langford
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. Michael Spinks
6. Archie Moore
7. Bob Foster
8. Harry Greb
9. Roy Jones Jr.
10. Tommy Loughran

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 01 Dec 2003, 11:20

zurdo wrote:You can't really rate Moorer as a great light heavyweight ...I remember him being a great light heavyweight prospect who scored some eye catching knockouts and eventually became a pretty good Heavyweight who won an alphabet version ...but his best wins at LH were was Leslie Stewart, Frankie Swindell and Ramzi Hassan...hardly the stuff of legends...

By the same standard you apply To Moorer you could also call Jimmy Ellis a great light heavyweight after all he too moved up in weight and won an alphabet version of the heavyweight championship

Correction: Michael Mooreer actually won the real heavyweight championship....But he's still not a great Light heavy ...because he never beat any top fighters in that division..Shoulda ,coulda, woulda. doesn't count ..only what happens in the ring...we can speculate that he would have smashed Virgil Hill or Prince Charles Williams but he didn't actually do it..before he moved up..

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 01 Dec 2003, 12:11

Moorer can't be considered an all-time great light-heavy for the same reason jones doesn't qualify as an all-time great middleweight ... and Jones' best opponents and wins at middle (if we lump middle and supermiddle together) were significantly more impressive than Moorer's at light-heavy.

Also, to say that guys like Virgil Hill were ducking Moorer doesn't mean they knew they had no chance against him. Moorer only ever held the (then even less respected than now) WBO light-heavy title (he was the first to hold it when it was created in 1988), so it may well have been a case of too much risk for too little reward. Also, Moorer only held that title for 2 years, so there may not have been all that many opportunities in that brief span for a big-name fight to be made before he moved up to heavy. Anyone know more about whether and which big-name light-heavies team Moorer may have tried to make a fight with from '88-'90?

barry · Post by **barry** » 01 Dec 2003, 15:55

----"Correction: Michael Mooreer actually won the real heavyweight championship"----

That's exactly what I said "Linear (or Lineal) Heavyweight Title!"

----"Shoulda ,coulda, woulda. doesn't count ..only what happens in the ring..."----

Again, sounds pretty much like what I said!.

If you guys would have paid a little closer attention (no pun intended)...I never stated that Moorer was a great Lt. heavy...as you can see, he is not in my all-time list. I said that Moorer had the skills and power to compete with any Lt. Heavy in history and on any given night, Moorer could beat any Lt. Hvy in history and he should be right up with the great Lt. Hvy's, but he didn't wait around for the chance at good Lt. Hvy's cheap purses when million dollar payday's was only 30 pounds away.

----"Also, to say that guys like Virgil Hill were ducking Moorer doesn't mean they knew they had no chance against him."----

No one said that. I said that none of the top light heavies, and they're was only very few at that time, wanted anything to do with Moorer, which they didn't.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 01 Dec 2003, 21:31

barry wrote:----"Correction: Michael Mooreer actually won the real heavyweight championship"----

That's exactly what I said "Linear (or Lineal) Heavyweight Title!"

----"Shoulda ,coulda, woulda. doesn't count ..only what happens in the ring..."----

Again, sounds pretty much like what I said!.

If you guys would have paid a little closer attention (no pun intended)...I never stated that Moorer was a great Lt. heavy...as you can see, he is not in my all-time list. I said that Moorer had the skills and power to compete with any Lt. Heavy in history and on any given night, Moorer could beat any Lt. Hvy in history and he should be right up with the great Lt. Hvy's, but he didn't wait around for the chance at good Lt. Hvy's cheap purses when million dollar payday's was only 30 pounds away.

----"Also, to say that guys like Virgil Hill were ducking Moorer doesn't mean they knew they had no chance against him."----

No one said that. I said that none of the top light heavies, and they're was only very few at that time, wanted anything to do with Moorer, which they didn't.

Sorry, I was actually correcting myself.on the linear title thingie..

The Light Heavy Moorer certainly one of the great could-have-beens ..in boxing history..

But no way can you rate him over Galindez...at least not who was the best Light Heavy weight in the world for several years in the late seventies.and a top contender for most of the rest of the decade..a very good time for light heavyweights..

Contrary to what you say Len Hutchins Pierre Fourie, Jorge Ahumada and Richie Kates were all very tough guys (better than Leslie Stewart I think )that Galindez hammered convincingly a couple of them were probably never the same afterward... He had tough close matches with Yaqui Lopez and Eddie Gregory/Mustafa Muhammad (Two extremely tough challengers) and split a pair with Mike Rossman(a very talented underachiever)..Id say his quality of competiton was better than Fosters who everyone knows is a great fighter....
He got stopped late in His career by Marvin Johnson ...no disgrace there

barry · Post by **barry** » 03 Dec 2003, 10:42

I agree about Galindez, he didn't get into the Hall of Fame for nothing, and he certainly had a better career at 175 than did Moorer. I also agree that the Lt. Hvys. that you mentioned were good quality light heavyweights, but I still think that they are in the same class as a Leslie Stewart in they're skills and quality of competition that each fought.

Low Rider · Post by **Low Rider** » 04 Dec 2003, 12:19

I always liked watching Galindez fight. He was like a lightheavyweight Roberto Duran, though wasn't as devastating a puncher as Duran. Didn't he lose to Rossman the first time because of a broken hand? He really ate Rossman alive in the rematch.

In all sports, fans can often be overcome by the notion that they could "do it too." I remember a fight Galindez had with Ray Ellison (Elson?), an X Olympic weightlifter. He was easily able to muscle Galindez, but it was a perfect example of why the average person, even if gifted athletically, can't take a seasoned pro. Victor took Ellison to school, and it was a joy to see all the little things a great fighter does that makes him great. Ellison didn't know what to do, so many things were coming at him out of Galindez's endless bag of tricks.