Joe Frazier V Evander Holyfeild

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 16:42

I am the biggest Holyfield fan on earth. This is the best fight that could ever be made imo. It is as much of a pick um as any fight I can think of.

I really don't see this fight not going the distance unless Joe's face didn't hold up. they would both be in the hospitol for sure.

Two things from previous posts.

Holyfield was much stronger then Tyson. Hard to say if he was stronger then Frazier.

He definitely hit much harder then Ali. Ali knocked out small guys. Holyfield never hit a man that didn't feel it.

Bowe,Qawi,Mercer.........all guys dropped for the first time by the non puncher.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 16:49

dempseyfire wrote:
silkov wrote:
Ezzard wrote: Ouch!

C'mon, Holyfield was better than that. He did struggle with some opponents but he was a fighter who has a chance with anyone.
But he would have needed to beat either Frazier, Foreman, Holmes or Ali to be champion in the 70s and I dont think he would have done it... I'm not saying he wasnt good, but he just wasnt as good as those guys. If Holmes and Foreman could trouble Evander when thye were in their 40s imagine what they would have did to him in their primes!...
I agree he wouldn't have been champ but definitely a contender. Imagine some of the fights that could've been made. Lyle-Holyfield, Quarry-Holyfield . . .those are GREAT fights!!

LOL, they are blowouts. Prime Holyfield in 76 beats Ali around the ring like a doll.

And he would have destroyed Dempsey.

The guy was too good to say he could never be champion. He would beat any version of Foreman imo.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 17:17

Frazier is a whole other species of animal than anything Holyfield has ever encountered. If Holyfield tries to fight, Frazier will out fight him. If Holyfield tries to box, Frazier will hunt him down. Evander could beat Frazier, but Frazier wins 7 out of 10.

Prime Holyfield vs. 76 Ali? Huh? What does prime Ali do to the Holyfield who got stopped by James Toney? Comments like that just go to show what I was talking about in that other thread. We make a lot out of Ali's decline, as if he's the only one who had a bad ending to his career.

90's Foreman gave Evander a bit of a tough fight. 70's Foreman might run over Holyfield. Or maybe not. But I would not favor prime Evander vs. prime George.

Holyfield is my second favorite Heavyweight of all time, but lets be realistic.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 17:52

I Feel Fine wrote:Frazier is a whole other species of animal than anything Holyfield has ever encountered. If Holyfield tries to fight, Frazier will out fight him. If Holyfield tries to box, Frazier will hunt him down. Evander could beat Frazier, but Frazier wins 7 out of 10.

Prime Holyfield vs. 76 Ali? Huh? What does prime Ali do to the Holyfield who got stopped by James Toney? Comments like that just go to show what I was talking about in that other thread. We make a lot out of Ali's decline, as if he's the only one who had a bad ending to his career.

90's Foreman gave Evander a bit of a tough fight. 70's Foreman might run over Holyfield. Or maybe not. But I would not favor prime Evander vs. prime George.

Holyfield is my second favorite Heavyweight of all time, but lets be realistic.

I was just responding to the blanket statement that Holyfield would be nothing but a contender in the 70's. The man is too great and proven too many people wrong for me to accept that.

I would favor any Evander over any George.

I said Joe/Holy is a toss up. I don't see any hugging in my post.

For the record. I grew up watching Ali and in his prime he had the worst possible style for any Holyfield. But if he layed on the ropes he would get his ass kicked.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 18:46

Any Evander over any Foreman? So a 40-45 year old Holyfield beats a 40-45 year old Foreman, the same one who gave prime Holyfield a rough fight? I don't see that.

I do think Holyfield would beat a 76 Ali, though no worse than Ali beats a 2004 Holyfield. But as for the rope-a-dope, a lot of people make that claim. The idea is that just any quality fighter would be able to beat, say, a 74 or 75 Ali, if he uses the rope-a-dope against them, while Foreman was too dumb to figure it out. Marciano would kill Ali in the rope-a-dope, Liston would, Holyfield. And yet Frazier understood the rope-a-dope and Ali beat him. You say Holyfield would kick Ali's ass in the rope-a-dope, and yet Evander never came close to stopping a 40+ Larry Holmes, who laid on the ropes for a majority of their fight.

It's like they say, everyone has a plan until they get hit. On paper everyone should kill Ali if he uses the rope-a-dope, but boxing doesn't work that way. And as I said in the other thread, there was a lot more to 70's Ali than just a rope-a-dope.

And your claim that Holyfield hit "much" harder than Ali is absurd. He might have hit a bit harder, mostly because he planted himself more than Ali, but "much" is an over statement.

But as to this topic, Holyfield is a great fighter, a special fighter, an extraordinary fighter; but so is Joe Frazier. Frazier would give Evander hell.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Sep 2007, 18:53

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 19:00

Am I the only one who saw Holyfield-Moorer, Holyfield-Foreman, Holyfield-Cooper? Ali was better than Holyfield in near every facet of the game. I like how you say its Holyfield vs. 60's Ali and yet find room for Norton.

Anything Holyfield can muster in terms of toughness Frazier can, and more. I admire the hell out of Holyfield, but you guys are going over board.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 19:32

I Feel Fine wrote:Am I the only one who saw Holyfield-Moorer, Holyfield-Foreman, Holyfield-Cooper? Ali was better than Holyfield in near every facet of the game. I like how you say its Holyfield vs. 60's Ali and yet find room for Norton.

Anything Holyfield can muster in terms of toughness Frazier can, and more. I admire the hell out of Holyfield, but you guys are going over board.

I have no idea wtf you're talking about. I haven't come close to going overboard with any statement. You certainly can disagree with them. But you're the one reading into things and going overboard.

Holyfield hit much harder then Ali. That isn't absurd, it's a fact. Ali was never a big puncher. Certainly not feather fisted. But no where near the pop of Evander.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Sep 2007, 19:37

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 19:51

Holyfield has issues with lateral movement and speed. He would lose clearly to a younger Ali imo.

For my money Holy was the best counter puncher in Heavyweight history. Ali would not give him those openings.

Nobody would beat a prime Evander without having some difficulty. But I think 10-5 seems about right.

The Cooper fight was a great performance. He got caught with one shot and dominated every other second of the fight.

It's a shame Tyson got a "boo-boo" or he would have been eating one uppercut after another.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:14

It seems like any topic can turn into an Ali thread on this forum. Ok...

I don't dispute, per se, that Holyfield hit harder than Ali. But "much" is an overstatement. I see you dodged the Holyfield-Holmes comparison, I guess my theory that things don't work out as well in real life as they do on paper proves valid.

----

Clay-Jones was no more competitive than Holyfield-Qawi. Qawi isn't Ali. If we're going to act like Ali was at 100% for his Norton fights, which he wasn't, then we can also say that Evander was at 100% for his first Moorer fight, which he wasn't, and by that logic Ali kills Evander, since Ali is a bigger, better boxer than Moorer with a superior jab.

Holyfield-Frazier would be nothing like Holyfield-Cooper. That's as superficial as comparing Ray Robinson to Cory Spinks.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:19

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:21

DaveV17 wrote:I don't know how the 60s Ali compares to the 70s Ali. IMO, Ali fought some of the weakest competition any heavyweight champion ever fought between Liston and Bonavena. London, Patterson, Mildenberger, Chuvalo, Cooper, Terrell, Williams, and Folley were either too small and unathletic to test Ali or they were over the hill.

Cleveland Williams was "shot", literally and had no business fighting for the titel, Brian London had no business fighting for a title, Folley was 35 going on 65 and was clearly intimidated in his first title shot. Patterson was too small, Chuvalo gave Ali problems and that probably says something about Ali, Terrell was a tall, skinny clutcher who survived, Cooper was a workman like fighter, nothing more. In the 60s, Ali struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper, then had the two controversial "fights" with Liston, then fought 8 guys who would make any champion look good.

I sure don't see any of those guys giving Holyfield any problems. If you think Ali handles Holyfield, that is your opinion, but IMO, Holyfield would be one of the worst match ups in history for Ali. That is one I would like to have the chance to bet on.

Ok but good luck explaining to your wife that your buddy Buzz ran off with all your money.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:36

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:36

I can buy someone saying Norton won all three fights, even if I disagree. But questioning Ali's resume is a different kind of stupidity.

Liston vs. overweight Douglas?
Patterson vs. Cooper?
Terrell vs. Bean?

How about prime Foreman vs. 43 year old 240+ Foreman?

Evander has a great resume, but comparing it to Ali's is like comparing Gehrig's numbers to Ruth's. Both great, but...

Anyway, lets get back on topic, Evander vs. Frazier...

theone · Post by **theone** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:36

Holyfield would be one of the worst match ups in history for Ali. That is one I would like to have the chance to bet on.

Spoken like someone who never saw Holyfield fight. Holyfield was murder on fighters who came right at him. Guys that were slippery and had good movement always gave him trouble. Shit, even Bobby Czyz and Vaughn Bean frustrated "The Real deal" a bit by using alot of movement.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:38

I Feel Fine wrote:It seems like any topic can turn into an Ali thread on this forum. Ok...

I don't dispute, per se, that Holyfield hit harder than Ali. But "much" is an overstatement. I see you dodged the Holyfield-Holmes comparison, I guess my theory that things don't work out as well in real life as they do on paper proves valid.

----

Clay-Jones was no more competitive than Holyfield-Qawi. Qawi isn't Ali. If we're going to act like Ali was at 100% for his Norton fights, which he wasn't, then we can also say that Evander was at 100% for his first Moorer fight, which he wasn't, and by that logic Ali kills Evander, since Ali is a bigger, better boxer than Moorer with a superior jab.

Holyfield-Frazier would be nothing like Holyfield-Cooper. That's as superficial as comparing Ray Robinson to Cory Spinks.

I never said Holyfield/Frazier would be anything like Holyfield/Cooper. You brought it up like some sort of indictment against Holyfield when it was a dominating performance.

I don't recall saying Holyfield would knock out Ali at any point. If Ali drove his elbow into his eye and split it wide open he would have more trouble.

Holmes was more clever then Ali anyway. He didn't quite have Ali's natural gifts. But he was better defensively and a little smarter.

I really don't see anything logical in your posts at all. It's like you're just responding to stuff you make up yourself.

I have been here a short time. But this is unusual. I guess you're drunk.

You're theory about things working out on paper is exactly what my first post was about. Saying Holyfield could never beat Ali,Frazier,Foreman or Holmes is insane.

Damn dude

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:56

markl wrote:I never said Holyfield/Frazier would be anything like Holyfield/Cooper. You brought it up like some sort of indictment against Holyfield when it was a dominating performance.

I don't recall saying Holyfield would knock out Ali at any point. If Ali drove his elbow into his eye and split it wide open he would have more trouble.

Holmes was more clever then Ali anyway. He didn't quite have Ali's natural gifts. But he was better defensively and a little smarter.

I really don't see anything logical in your posts at all. It's like you're just responding to stuff you make up yourself.

I have been here a short time. But this is unusual. I guess you're drunk.

The Holyfield-Cooper response was to dave, not to you.

I didn't say that you said that Holyfield would knock out Ali. I said that Holyfield didn't destroy an old, over weight Holmes, and Holmes used the ropes for most of the fight. Therefore saying that Ali would "get his ass kicked" by Evander doesn't hold much water.

You must have missed Holmes-Norton, Holmes-Weaver, Holmes-Shavers II, Holmes-Snipes, Holmes-Witherspoon, Holmes-Spinks and a few other fights if you believe Holmes was a better defensive fighter than Ali. I wouldn't say Ali was a better defensive fighter, either, I'd call it about even. I wouldn't say Holmes was smarter than Ali, either, or vice versa.

Perhaps I do need a drink with some of the comments you two are making.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Sep 2007, 20:58

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 21:13

I Feel Fine wrote:
markl wrote:I never said Holyfield/Frazier would be anything like Holyfield/Cooper. You brought it up like some sort of indictment against Holyfield when it was a dominating performance.

I don't recall saying Holyfield would knock out Ali at any point. If Ali drove his elbow into his eye and split it wide open he would have more trouble.

Holmes was more clever then Ali anyway. He didn't quite have Ali's natural gifts. But he was better defensively and a little smarter.

I really don't see anything logical in your posts at all. It's like you're just responding to stuff you make up yourself.

I have been here a short time. But this is unusual. I guess you're drunk.
The Holyfield-Cooper response was to dave, not to you.

I didn't say that you said that Holyfield would knock out Ali. I said that Holyfield didn't destroy an old, over weight Holmes, and Holmes used the ropes for most of the fight. Therefore saying that Ali would "get his ass kicked" by Evander doesn't hold much water.

You must have missed Holmes-Norton, Holmes-Weaver, Holmes-Shavers II, Holmes-Snipes, Holmes-Witherspoon, Holmes-Spinks and a few other fights if you believe Holmes was a better defensive fighter than Ali. I wouldn't say Ali was a better defensive fighter, either, I'd call it about even. I wouldn't say Holmes was smarter than Ali, either, or vice versa.

Perhaps I do need a drink with some of the comments you two are making.

I saw all those fights live and own them. Ali used his feet and speed more as a defense. When they got older Holmes was harder to catch then Ali was.

Snipes and Shavers landed one punch on Holmes. In 23 rounds he hit Larry with one significant right hand. It took him 4 minutes to hit Ali.

I used the wrong terminology by saying destroy. He would beat him convincingly is what I meant. He won 8 out of 12 rounds against an old Holmes.

He was lighting him up early and things got tighter after the elbow. Still a good win over a far from shot Holmes.

I am done here. But what statements of mine are causing you trouble?

My only issue befoire this mind numbing volley was that Holyfield deserves to be grouped with Ali,Holmes,Foreman & Frazier a lot more then he does with Lyle & Quarry.

Holyfield/Frazier. A war for the ages. I couldn't confidently pick a winner. They would meet in the middle of the ring and go to war.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 19 Sep 2007, 21:24

DaveV17 wrote:In the 70s, Ali fought some good competition, in the 60s he didn't. London, Cooper, Patterson, Williams, Terrell, Chuvalo, Folley, and Mildenberger were all either too small and unathletic or over the hill or both.
Ali was not in prison during his 3 year absence from the ring. He could train, spar, do whatever he wanted to stay in shape. He returned to the ring at 28, if it affected him at all, he probably just got stronger. Ali might not have looked as good in the 70s, but his competition had a lot to do with it. Fighting Frazier, Norton, Foreman, etc. is a lot different than fighting small guys like Patterson or over the hill pacifists like Folley.

if you can give a reason why after you have been banned and told you can never fight again you would keep training when it is going nowhere and when you train it hurts you because you want to fight but you cant ali gave up on his dream during these years he didnt get stronger he just stopped to punch more than previosly but i still dont think he knocked anymore people out for a guyu that had no punch he stopped moore, liston 2x, patterson(after giving him a brutal beating were he refused to knock him out), london, mildenberger, williams, folley, foreman to name a few also the 1st guy to stop bonevena who took frazier the distance twice ali a prime ali beats any version of holyfield 10/10 holyfield couldnt catch a young ali ali was to quick and too good

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 19 Sep 2007, 21:32

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 21:33

You have to be kidding comparing the Holmes, in his absolute prime, who fought Shavers to the 35 year old Ali who on his way to Parkinsons. Ali was so shot at that point that MSG banned him from fighting there again after that fight.

If we're going to make that kind of comparison then I might as well start mentioning fights like Holmes-Ferguson where Holmes got hit by one bomb every thirty seconds.

Shavers and Snipes caught Holmes with flush shots right on the chin, and if it was Ali getting caught with those punches he would get all the criticism in the world for it. Lets be a little more even handed here, you people don't let Ali get away with anything yet Holmes can get put on queer street for two whole rounds by Renaldo freaking Snipes, and its no big deal?

Holmes and Ali were about even in terms of defense. Holmes was hit flush plenty of times and was not impossible to hit. If Holmes appeared harder to hit at times, perhaps its because he wasn't fighting Frazier and Liston. Dave wants to talk about Ali's title challengers, he must have missed Holmes' title reign...

Dave's last post is so ridiculous I won't touch that one. Hopefully now we can get back to the actual topic.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 21:35

I think they are comparable. But Ali defeated a higher level of opposition so he has to get the historical nod.

I do think Holmes was better defensively. While Ali was a more gifted athlete and had an edge offensively.

I would take Ali by razor close decision over Holmes.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 21:38

I Feel Fine wrote:You have to be kidding comparing the Holmes, in his absolute prime, who fought Shavers to the 35 year old Ali who on his way to Parkinsons. Ali was so shot at that point that MSG banned him from fighting there again after that fight.

If we're going to make that kind of comparison then I might as well start mentioning fights like Holmes-Ferguson where Holmes got hit by one bomb every thirty seconds.

Shavers and Snipes caught Holmes with flush shots right on the chin, and if it was Ali getting caught with those punches he would get all the criticism in the world for it. Lets be a little more even handed here, you people don't let Ali get away with anything yet Holmes can get put on queer street for two whole rounds by Renaldo freaking Snipes, and its no big deal?

Holmes and Ali were about even in terms of defense. Holmes was hit flush plenty of times and was not impossible to hit. If Holmes appeared harder to hit at times, perhaps its because he wasn't fighting Frazier and Liston. Dave wants to talk about Ali's title challengers, he must have missed Holmes' title reign...

Dave's last post is so ridiculous I won't touch that one. Hopefully now we can get back to the actual topic.

You are talking about Holmes/Spinks. What is the fornicating difference?

We were discussing Holyfield fighting Ali in 76 and comparing that Ali's defense to a 40 something Holmes that Holy fought. You're spinning around in circles.

Ali got caught with the same right hand Holmes did. He just didn't hit the deck.

Larry had completely toyed with Shavers for 18 rounds and got careless. WTF is this you people shit?

Find me one post of mine shitting on Ali. Ali got caught too. Cooper,Banks, it happens to the best of them and they both got up and won. Big deal.