Joe Frazier V Evander Holyfeild

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 19 Sep 2007, 23:24

markl wrote:You are talking about Holmes/Spinks. What is the effing difference?

We were discussing Holyfield fighting Ali in 76 and comparing that Ali's defense to a 40 something Holmes that Holy fought. You're spinning around in circles.

You compared Holmes' performance against Shavers to Ali's. That is a retarded comparison. If you want to compare one of Ali's later performances like Ali-Shavers to one of Holmes' later performances like Holmes-Spink that's a different story.

markl wrote:Ali got caught with the same right hand Holmes did. He just didn't hit the deck.

Shavers hit Ali three or four times with the punch he dropped Holmes with, and Ali didn't hit the deck. But the reason why Ali got caught that many times was his age.

markl wrote:Find me one post of mine shitting on Ali. Ali got caught too. Cooper,Banks, it happens to the best of them and they both got up and won. Big deal.

Yeah, Ali got caught with those punches and will never hear the end of it. Holmes got dropped by a 19-8 Weaver and got put on queer street for two rounds by Snipes. Fans talk constantly about Ali's knock downs and almost never bring up Holmes', then they make comments about how Holmes is a better defensive fighter. Again, retarded.

markl · Post by **markl** » 19 Sep 2007, 23:27

You're the retard. I am an Ali fan. Talk about ducking something. Show me a disrespectful post I have ever made about Ali.

Weaver's knockdown of Holmes was a flash knockdown. He was in trouble until he uncorked that uppercut. What that has to do with Holyfield/Frazier, you would have to tell me.

Don't forget about Kevin Isaac's. He dropped Larry as well.

Hell, he knocked himself down against Butterbean.

You usually seem to be quite reasonable. I guess Ali is a mighty sore subject for you people.

Thanks for dodging all my questions and you can finish this one alone.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 20 Sep 2007, 00:01

I would list their opponents and compare it for you dave, if this was an Ali or Holmes related thread, but it would be too long a post so I'll just have to respectfully disagree.

Mark... I haven't dodged anything you've said. Not sure why you're asking me what this has to do with Holyfield-Frazier, you're the one talking about Ali getting his ass kicked by Holyfield and how Holmes is a smarter, better defensive fighter, while comparing a prime Holmes to a dead Ali. I'm disagreeing.

Holmes' legs sure looked impressed by Weaver's punches.

markl · Post by **markl** » 20 Sep 2007, 00:28

He wasn't hurt in the 4th at all. He was in more trouble when he dropped him in the 11th.

I saw that on closed circuit. Duran/palamino was the cofeature.

I never said he had a better chin then Ali anyway.

You're the one on this Holmes tirade. Not me.

I was never even addressing you.

DO YOU THINK HOLYFIELD BELONGS IN A CATEGORY WITH

Ali,Holmes,Frazier & Foreman

or Quarry & Lyle?

That is the whole thing I was responding to. maybe you're not drunk and just bored. But this has been like pulling out your own teeth. Thanks

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 20 Sep 2007, 04:20

I think the 90s was a strong era for heavies but few of the big fights failed ot materialise until some of the fighters were past their best. Still, overall I think Holyfield was the best and I think he could be in the Ali, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman category.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Sep 2007, 09:36

DaveV17 wrote:IFF wrote:"Dave wants to talk about Ali's title challengers, he must have missed Holmes' title reign..."

I'll take Cooney, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, etc. over any of the 8 that Ali fought between Liston and Bonavena. In fact, I'd take Marvis Frazier over any of the Ali opponents with Patterson standing the best chance of beating him.

One of the most ridiculous posts I've ever come across EVER at boxrec, and they've been many . . . . . .

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2007, 09:41

dempseyfire wrote:
DaveV17 wrote:IFF wrote:"Dave wants to talk about Ali's title challengers, he must have missed Holmes' title reign..."

I'll take Cooney, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, etc. over any of the 8 that Ali fought between Liston and Bonavena. In fact, I'd take Marvis Frazier over any of the Ali opponents with Patterson standing the best chance of beating him.
One of the most ridiculous posts I've ever come across EVER at boxrec, and they've been many . . . . . .

I actually used that post to clean out the Pig Stye at the farm. Best Hogwash I've ever come across.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 20 Sep 2007, 10:50

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 20 Sep 2007, 11:08

dempseyfire wrote:
DaveV17 wrote:IFF wrote:"Dave wants to talk about Ali's title challengers, he must have missed Holmes' title reign..."

I'll take Cooney, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, etc. over any of the 8 that Ali fought between Liston and Bonavena. In fact, I'd take Marvis Frazier over any of the Ali opponents with Patterson standing the best chance of beating him.
One of the most ridiculous posts I've ever come across EVER at boxrec, and they've been many . . . . . .

Amen.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 20 Sep 2007, 11:30

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 20 Sep 2007, 12:09

DaveV17 wrote:Why don't you guys defend some of the Ali-8? There is nothing to say except they were Over The Hill, Never Was, or small and unathletic. That group would have made Carl "The Truth" Williams look like the best heavyweight of all time.

Marvis Frazier at 9-0 had already beaten Joe Bugner decisively and James Broad (12-0), a hot prospect at the time, who had made the U.S. Olympic team that didn't get to go to the Olympics, before Larry Holmes knocked him (Marvis) out. Even Bugner would be a heavy favorite against any of the Ali-8.

Copper and London weren't too hot though Cooper had had more success than most against Ali. Mildenberger wasn't awful but you're right in that he would be considered a poor challenger had he been in Holmes' defences list.

Chuvalo didn't have the style to trouble ALI IMO but he was a good challenger. Folley and Terrell were good fighters though, weren't they?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Sep 2007, 12:19

DaveV17 wrote:Dempseyfire and BoxBuzz,
I don't care if you agree with me, but I seldom miss when I pick a winner of a fight. And I stand by what I wrote.
I'll take Cooney, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, etc. over any of the 8 that Ali fought between Liston and Bonavena. In fact, I'd take Marvis Frazier over any of the Ali opponents with Patterson standing the best chance of beating him.

This group, London,Cooper,Patterson,Terrell, Chuvalo, Folley, Mildenberger, or the "shot" Cleveland Williams, may be the weakest group oif title challengers in the history of boxing. If not, it is a strong contender.

Terrell, Quarry and Chuvalo would beat Cooney, Smith and demolish Marvis Frazier. Chuvalo would've given Frazier a worse beating than he gave Mike DeJohn. I think Chuvalo also beats the passive Witherspoon with his activity and body work. Terrel-Witherspoon is an ugly fight that could go either way but I edge Ernie. I see Cooney and Witherspoon beating Mildenberger but wouldn't be surprised to see the southpaw outbox the mummy Smith. Folley by the time he fought Ali was well past it but I favor a prime Folley vs all of the 80s Holmes challengers besides maybe Witherspoon.
As for London, Cooper, and the washed up Williams, yeah they'd probably lose to the top Holmes challengers of the 80s, but I can't see Cooper or even that Williams ever losing to MARVIS FRAZIER!!

Frazier Beat Joe Bugner . . you mean the old Bugner who when he was young got a gift decision vs an old HENRY COOPER!!!!

The fact you are talking up James Broad, who was the 80s version of Calvin Brock, speaks volumes as to the rationality of your argument.

You seem to be just so impressed by any big HW with some athletic ability who can throw a fast jab, like glass-jawed Carl Williams. The Williams, who after doing well vs an old Holmes, got embarassed and KTFO vs Mike Weaver, who was smaller than Chuvalo, Williams, and Terrell and slightly bigger than Zora Folley.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2007, 12:42

DaveV17 wrote:Dempseyfire and BoxBuzz,
I don't care if you agree with me, but I seldom miss when I pick a winner of a fight. And I stand by what I wrote.
I'll take Cooney, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, etc. over any of the 8 that Ali fought between Liston and Bonavena. In fact, I'd take Marvis Frazier over any of the Ali opponents with Patterson standing the best chance of beating him.

This group, London,Cooper,Patterson,Terrell, Chuvalo, Folley, Mildenberger, or the "shot" Cleveland Williams, may be the weakest group oif title challengers in the history of boxing. If not, it is a strong contender.

It's not the process as much as the conclusion. But if your on a winning streak with your bets...ride it. Check that...the process is pretty weak as well.

markl · Post by **markl** » 20 Sep 2007, 14:02

Ezzard wrote:I think the 90s was a strong era for heavies but few of the big fights failed ot materialise until some of the fighters were past their best. Still, overall I think Holyfield was the best and I think he could be in the Ali, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman category.

Thank you. That is all I was trying to say.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 20 Sep 2007, 15:00

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Sep 2007, 15:34

DaveV17 wrote:Dempseyfire,
Quarry didn't fight Ali in the 60s. Chuvalo couldn't even beat Eduardo Corletti, much less Tim Witherspoon. As you admitted Folley was WAY past his peak. He was old, scared, and looking for a way out when he fought Ali. Terrrell was just a John Ruiz without the physical strength.

I'd take Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, and Cooney over any of Ali's 60s competition - and easy. Marvis too. Marvis beat Bugner, CONVINCINGLY when Bugner was 33. That Bugner would be the favorite against any of Ali's 60s competition. He would look like a big, fast, giant against most of them. Scott Frank would no worse than even money against any of them.

Chuvalo's beating Mike DeJohn is not that impressive. I knew the first guy who beat DeJohn and he said that DeJohn couldn't take it to the body. Beating DeJohn and beating Bonecrusher are two different things. Cooney might kill some of those guys with that hook of his. He demolished past their primes Lyle and Norton who were both still better than any of the Ali 8. If he could destroy big, strong fighters like that, it would be criminal to see him hit Folley or the crippled Williams. He might break Terrell's skinny body in two. It wasn't Ali's fault that the competiton was so weak in the 60s, he fought what was there, it just wasn't much there.

Why couldn't a young Bugner convincingly beat an even older Cooper than the one Ali fought?? Where was the big fast giant??? Haha, your arguments are too easily ripped apart by actual reality.

Former amatuer light HW turned chubby Heavyweight Ruiz stronger than 6'6, ripped to the tits 215 lb Ernie Terrell?? That makes a lot of sense.

Wow, so you picked on a fighter's record with Chuvalo being beaten by Corletti. I could go the other way saying "Witherspoon couldn't even beat Everett Martin, let alone George Chuvalo" . . .

Cooney's hook couldn't cripple Michael Spinks, but Folley gets destroyed. Smith loses to Aldison Rodriguez but Chuvalo has no chance.

Sound logic there. Keep the laugh parade rolling.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Sep 2007, 15:42

And let me also point out that Dave stated that Scott Frank would be "no worse than even money" vs the likes of Ernie Terrell, Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper etc.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 20 Sep 2007, 15:52

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 20 Sep 2007, 17:06

Dave-Have you ever seen the Bugner- Marvis Frazier fight? Have you ever seen the Joe Frazier-Bugner fight.? He was way past it. He wasn't nearly the same fighter who gave Joe Frazier a lot of trouble.

You think Marvis would beat Patterson? Are you insane? Doubtful Marvis lasts 3 rounds.

Which fighters that Ali defended his title against would have beaten Norton and Frazier that fought Cooney?
All of them except for perhaps London. Both Norton and Lyle were way past it when they fought Cooney. I think Cooney's biggest fans would acknowledge that.

Ernie Terrell was no legend but he could fight. He had a good jab and wasn't easy to hit. He a lot better than John Ruiz.
Folley was a good fighter. He certainly wasn't scared; he came to fight. Of course he got beat badly against Ali because he was fighting the greatest heavyweight of all time in his prime.
Cleveland Williams was big and strong (which about you are always talking about) and had just one loss in the previous 6 years (close decision to Terrell) when he fought Ali.

Chuvalo was tough as nails. His overall record speaks for itself.
Mildenberger was a decent fighter who was tough,athletic and a southpaw which of course gives a lot of guys trouble.

Of course winning the title against Liston was impressive but I'm sure you have some BS spin that makes it look like anyone could have beaten Liston for the title.

Scott Frank would be even money against Ali's challengers in the 1960's? Are you really that stupid that you say things like this or are you just trying to get people going?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Sep 2007, 17:47

DaveV17 wrote:DF,

Why don't you point out which of Ali's 8 title challengers could beat the Norton and Lyle that Cooney blasted out in minutes? If you need help, here is the answer - None of them.

I guess Lyn Ball and Scott Ledoux beat Patterson, Terrell, and Chuvalo as well.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2007, 17:48

Dave...are you granberry's crony? If not you both seem have this viewpoint in common.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 20 Sep 2007, 20:53

Well since the conversation has gone this way, I think it is now justifiable to compare, so...

Holmes and Ali's first nine title fights, Holmes opponents on the left, Ali opponents on the right:

Norton vs. Liston: Ali had the better opponent here... we wont count the rematch because I'm sure most of us thought Liston took a dive
Evangelista vs. Patterson: Ali with the better opponent
Ocasio vs. Chuvalo: Ali with better opponent
Weaver vs. Cooper: Holmes with better opponent, it should be noted that Ali had to fight Chuvalo, Cooper, London and Mildenberger because he could not get any fights in the United States at that point, so they were the best available opposition outside of this country
Shavers vs. London: Holmes clearly
Zanon vs. Mildenberger: Ali
Jones vs. Williams: Ali
LeDoux vs. Terrell: Ali
Ali (as a Holmes opponent) vs. Folley: Honestly, I don't think the Ali who fought Holmes could beat the Zora Folley who fought Ali in 67; Ali

So, there you go. Holmes would fight some more big names in his next 11 title fights, but so would Ali.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 20 Sep 2007, 22:05

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 20 Sep 2007, 22:28

That's... amazing.

Patterson was coming off wins over Machen and Chuvalo, and was fighting Ali in his absolute peak. Evangelista fought a shot Ali, and Ali still beat him with ease. It's not the same thing. Patterson would embarass Evangelista if they had fought.

Ocasio was a joke, Chuvalo would eat him alive. I haven't seen his fights with Young, but Young was basically finished at that stage to my knowledge.

As stated I of course agree with Weaver and Shavers. As I said, Ali had no other options but to fight Cooper and London, and it was probably a good idea to fight Cooper again anyway considering the knock down and the urban legends of the first fight.

Mildenberger wasn't great, but he was good, and a southpaw, while Holmes may as well have fought a dead man. Zanon was a glorified sparring partner.

Cleveland Williams could have had a bullet in his brain, he was still a more dangerous fighter than Jones. Jones was an overweight fighter with no clue.

You're out of this world stupid if you think Ali was any kind of legitimate opponent for Holmes at that stage, or that Ali was in "great shape" for the fight. I'm sure Jeffries thought he was in great shape too when he was going into the Johnson fight. Ali had a hole in his membrane, was 38, hadn't fought in two years, lost a lot of weight going into the fight, took thyroid pills, lost his next fight to Berbick. Folley showed skill in the first couple of rounds of the Ali fight and even landed some big shots, though Ali was probably warming up. Still, a much more live opponent than the Ali who fought Larry. Not really comparable.

Your conclusions are ridiculous and your bias is yet again obvious.