Ken Norton and the hypnotist

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 15 Sep 2007, 00:46

BoxBuzz wrote:The Hypnotist must not have been truly working for Kenny, because according to most of you he must have "HIP-MO-TIZED" the judges into thinking that Ali won two out of three.

Fight One: referee: Frank Rustich | 5-4 | 5-6 | 7-5 ~ SD NORTON for the NABF Title Fight

Fight Two: referee: Dick Young 5-7 | judge: John Thomas 5-6 | judge: George Latka 6-5 ~ SD Ali For the NABF Title

Fight Three:~ referee: Arthur Mercante 6-8 | judge: Harold Lederman 7-8 | judge: Barney Smith 7-8 ~for the WBC heavyweight title ~and WBA heavyweight title ~ UD Ali

Grand Total for trilogy based on 9 separate up close official assessments

57 Ali 53 Norton.

It was very close and maybe the whole trilogy can be characterized as a "near draw" I would say it makes for more interesting conversation to say Norton won. When you come that close to beating a legend and along the way breaking his jaw, you end up with the "sentamentalists" making it out to be a win. Kenny hung in there so he gets the "moral victory". But the hard data/empircal evidence does not support the "emotional" claim. IMHO.

Their first fight was not close at all . . .

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Sep 2007, 02:16

DaveV17 wrote:Collins, sounds good. I'll be interested in how you score it. I don't think you will be disappointed in my scoring.

Some of the things I look for: I do score for aggression and I give more credence to solid punches than to punches thrown when a fighter is not properly set to get power from the punch. I don't give style points, i.e. Ali could do the Ali shuffle 10 times per round, but if he doesn't land effectively and he takes a lot of shots, he is not going to win the round on my card. I like good defense and I try to watch to see if punches are getting through and landing. Slipping, rolling, and parrying while within distance to punch back, along with good footwork are important defensive skills. I score the entire round and a flurry toward the bell will not win a round on my card unless the other fighter is affected by the punches. A good, solid shot toward the end of a round that hurts the other man is a different matter. I don't want to say anything that might prejudice your scoring, but I wanted to let you know what I look for in a fight.

Looking forward to seeing how you score the fight.

Don't worry Dave, Ali won't get any scoring credits from me for The Shuffle or for pulling faces and talking to the crowd at ringside. Having said that, I didn't mind him doing that stuff as long as he was also landing plenty of scoring punches. I certainly didn't penalise him for The Shuffle and I assume you didn't either.

I agree that a lone flurry towards the end of a round shouldn't sway anyone if the person who throws the flurry has been outfought all round. Of course, the other thing that doesn't win a round is a single solid (non knockdown) punch if the fellow who lands it has had his head jabbed off the rest of the round.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Sep 2007, 08:06

Collins....will you be going for sport forum drama....or simple transparent unbiased neutrality?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 15 Sep 2007, 15:17

I'm not sure anyone has claimed that an Ali-Norton fight at any stage would be easy, but I think it would be evident to most people that any advantage helps in a close fight. I'd have to question the eye sight of someone who doesn't see the difference in hand speed between Ali in the Folley fight and Ali in the Norton rematch, and his leg speed is where he really lost something, more so than the hand speed. And that's not all he lost.

As for the actual fights, it's easy for people to sit behind their computer and talk about how none of these things matter, but just imagine Norton trying to beat Ali with a broken jaw with two weeks training, or trying to beat a prime Ali at 34 years old. He would have no chance.

As for scoring a fight, I always give Ali a 10-8 round for doing the shuffle...

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 15 Sep 2007, 15:43

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Sep 2007, 16:23

BoxBuzz wrote:Collins....will you be going for sport forum drama....or simple transparent unbiased neutrality?

Buzz, I'll write it in neutral anorak style.

If you feel the urge you can lob in a some flowery prose to set the scene. A bit of background stuff. For instance, could Kenny sing at all?

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 15 Sep 2007, 16:25

It was fractured early and broken later from my understanding.

Norton didn't win all three fights, and he hardly won anything "big" outside of the first fight. This is obstinate nonsense.

I'd like to see you and dempsey in the next thread about another controversial fight that doesn't involve Ali acting so fervently in support of the fighter who should have won.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Sep 2007, 16:25

Collins2000 wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Collins....will you be going for sport forum drama....or simple transparent unbiased neutrality?
Buzz, I'll write it in neutral anorak style.

If you feel the urge you can lob in a some flowery prose to set the scene. A bit of background stuff. For instance, could Kenny sing at all?

.....not a lick....but the man was a Thespian! ACTING! Now that was Kenny's calling

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 15 Sep 2007, 17:33

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 15 Sep 2007, 17:59

Only a small number of boxing fans would say Norton beat Ali in the rematch, and you're in a minority of one calling that second fight a robbery. You're biased and you don't know how to score a fight.

Anyway, I think I'm about done with this thread, unless dempsey has anything else to say. As for dave, I would say just about every post that he has has made here should be moved to the disinformation thread.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 15 Sep 2007, 18:31

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 15 Sep 2007, 19:28

What the hell. Norton got a title shot against Foreman and got flattened in very short order. If he had won the title against Ali he would have had a reign no longer than the one he finished up with.

I thought that he tended to hit with open gloves and land a lot of punches to the back of the head. The fact that he broke a half-fit Ali's jaw in the first round of their first round and could not KO him in 12 must mean something. Norton lacked consistency.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:29

I Feel Fine wrote:It was fractured early and broken later from my understanding.

Norton didn't win all three fights, and he hardly won anything "big" outside of the first fight. This is obstinate nonsense.

I'd like to see you and dempsey in the next thread about another controversial fight that doesn't involve Ali acting so fervently in support of the fighter who should have won.

If someone wants to start a thread talking about how Norton beat Holmes and that it was a big robbery, I'll glady take all the guns a'blazing to prove the contrary. And I have in past threads strongly defended my decision to score the Holyfield-Lewis rematch a close win for Evander. And how I feel Jones Jr beat Tarver in the first fight fair and square, how Kid Diamond was giving a blatant gift vs Huerta 2 months ago etc. There are many others. I'm focusing on the Ali-Norton fights this thread b/c that's what the focus is on.

As to the point of me scoring the rematch a draw, if someone has a major issue please address my scorecard. I don't think one can objectively find major faults with it whatsoever.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:56

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 16 Sep 2007, 19:44

dempseyfire wrote:If someone wants to start a thread talking about how Norton beat Holmes and that it was a big robbery, I'll glady take all the guns a'blazing to prove the contrary. And I have in past threads strongly defended my decision to score the Holyfield-Lewis rematch a close win for Evander. And how I feel Jones Jr beat Tarver in the first fight fair and square, how Kid Diamond was giving a blatant gift vs Huerta 2 months ago etc. There are many others. I'm focusing on the Ali-Norton fights this thread b/c that's what the focus is on.

As to the point of me scoring the rematch a draw, if someone has a major issue please address my scorecard. I don't think one can objectively find major faults with it whatsoever.

I can see how someone could score Ali-Norton II a draw or even for Norton, even if I disagree. What I find odd is the new, monthly thread these fights seem to get that other controversial fights don't.

I'll have to take your word for the rest of that.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 21 Sep 2007, 17:53

DaveV17 wrote:Norton had a style that Ali couldn't handle. Norton beats him everytime. None of the 3 fights were even close. The judges could give them to Ali, the Ali fans can pretend that Ali won, but he lost them all. Look at Ali after the fight, he KNOWS he LOST.

Ali was only 212 for the second fight, danced as much as he ever did (ineffectively), most of the fight. He just couldn't punch hard enough to keep Norton away. Nobody beats everybody. Ali couldn't beat Norton, Norton couldn't beat Foreman, Foreman couldn;t beat Ali, etc.

Nobody can punch off of their toes. If Shavers, Marciano, Dempsey, Tyson, or anyone else bounced on their toes, they wouldn't be able to punch. Ali was no exception. Norton exploited that weakness, easily handled Ali's jab, and handled Ali. Norton could exploit that same technique at anytime in Ali's career. Norton would always win.

YOU HIT CLEAR ON THE HEAD, MAN...CONGRATULATIONS!!!

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 21 Sep 2007, 20:58

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 21 Sep 2007, 21:25

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 21 Sep 2007, 21:39

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 21 Sep 2007, 22:37

Now you can read Ali's mind, too? He never attempted to make any kind of claim about winning the first fight, and he even admitted that he thought he lost the third, as I said earlier in the thread. But he was pretty adamant that he won the second.

If you want to be biased thats one thing. You could get away with saying that you thought Norton won the second fight. But you make it so obvious how full of shit you are by childishly giving Norton almost every round.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 21 Sep 2007, 22:50

I was there at the first fight and Ali was in real trouble in the last round. I knew Frank Rustich the ref and asked him if he was thinking of stopping the fight. He replied," There was too much money on the fight for me to stop it." Anyone else - stoppage TKO. They always show Ali's fights with Foreman,Frazier III, the fights before the retirement on TV. They should repeatedly show his fights with Norton on TV. Ali's image would certainly diminish. I know,Ali was past his prime,but Ken Norton's only impressive win was against Quarry. Ali never had a point taken away for holding behind the neck. He was like a cult hero after he came out of retirement and it clouded the fans and judges scoring of his fights. Even today people only seem to see him winning his fights later in his career. Put another head on that body and he would of had some more losses. Another 2 Ali fights you don't see on TV:Ali/Spinks I and II. Ali losing to a 7 and 0 pro. He looked awful. The judges couldn't give him that one. And the 2nd fight was a carbon copy of the 1st. Spinks was too fast for Ali. Ali clinched and grabbed. I remember Ferdi Pacheco at ringside calling the color. What in the hell was he looking at? Ali could do no wrong. On classic fight specials on TV I never hear Angelo Dundee talk about Norton or Spinks

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 21 Sep 2007, 22:50

I was there at the first fight and Ali was in real trouble in the last round. I knew Frank Rustich the ref and asked him if he was thinking of stopping the fight. He replied," There was too much money on the fight for me to stop it." Anyone else - stoppage TKO. They always show Ali's fights with Foreman,Frazier III, the fights before the retirement on TV. They should repeatedly show his fights with Norton on TV. Ali's image would certainly diminish. I know,Ali was past his prime,but Ken Norton's only impressive win was against Quarry. Ali never had a point taken away for holding behind the neck. He was like a cult hero after he came out of retirement and it clouded the fans and judges scoring of his fights. Even today people only seem to see him winning his fights later in his career. Put another head on that body and he would of had some more losses. Another 2 Ali fights you don't see on TV:Ali/Spinks I and II. Ali losing to a 7 and 0 pro. He looked awful. The judges couldn't give him that one. And the 2nd fight was a carbon copy of the 1st. Spinks was too fast for Ali. Ali clinched and grabbed. I remember Ferdi Pacheco at ringside calling the color. What in the hell was he looking at? Ali could do no wrong. On classic fight specials on TV I never hear Angelo Dundee talk about Norton or Spinks

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 21 Sep 2007, 23:03

This is what it comes down to, really. Those who look at Ali as some sort of protected fighter who couldn't have survived in boxing without his fame, others who have a bit more insight. Ali isn't the only fighter who has been allowed to go the distance with a broken jaw; Liston, Tarver, Abraham come to mind immediately. Ali-Norton II was not a bad decision. Looking at Ali's condition today, it should be obvious to the modern viewer what was behind Ali's performances with Spinks. But this is not obvious to the casual boxing fan, who wants to look iconoclastic. You're not iconoclastic, you're just narrow and uninsightful. You don't know or see the full picture.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 21 Sep 2007, 23:07

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 21 Sep 2007, 23:25

I'm glad I opened up the controversy of Ali/Norton and what this has manifested into. Some of the replies are a psychiatrist's dream. Some of you are really angry. Ali never paid my reny

Ken Norton and the hypnotist

Almost stopped by Ref/Spinks Jinxed

Almost stopped by Ref/Spinks Jinxed

I'm loving every minute of it