Welterweights: Kid Gavilan vs Thomas Hearns

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 08 Aug 2007, 11:46

Two of the greatest all time welterweights go at it for 15 rounds. One has a helluva punch and the other a granite chin. Both of them fast with their hands...Who wins? I pick The Keed from Cuba.

theone · Post by **theone** » 08 Aug 2007, 13:44

i believe Hearns is more than capable of denting Gavilan's chin the way he did to Duran and Cuevas. However, i'll give Gavilan the benefit of the doubt and go with Hearns in a clear 15 round decision. Gavilan doesnt have the power to ko Hearns which would in my opinion would be the only way he could defeat him. With the possible exception of Sugar Ray Robinson i cant imagine any welterweight out boxing Tommy Hearns.

tgchungmj · Post by **tgchungmj** » 09 Aug 2007, 05:03

I have thought this match-up for a long time. I have wondered who could defeat Tommy Hearns in welterweight? One of the fighters is Cuban Hawk.

Kid Gavilan was the typical boxer who has a big chance to defeat Tommy Hearns.

Kid Gavilan's chin was really one of all time the best. He was very good at attacking the body(Hearns was not so good at defending body).

Hearns was great at fighting an opponent maintaining a long distance with him, but was not so good at fighting close toghether with short punches-hook and upper.

It was Leonard' body punch in middle rounds that made Hearns' pace slow down in their first fight. Hearns cannot be defeated letting him throw jabs and crosses freely at a long distance. Rememger that Hearns was not easily outboxed. Fighters should be very good at pressing and fighting at close distance to defeat Hitman---- like Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Gavilan was the type. He would defeat Hearns.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 25 Sep 2007, 00:05

The pressure that Gavilan put on Hearns would be too much for him. I do not see Hearns knocking him out. Gavilan had too much chin and was as fast and more durable than Hearns.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 25 Sep 2007, 01:03

..... i cant imagine any welterweight out boxing Tommy Hearns......

How about not imagining?......Sugar Ray Leonard ring a bell?

markl · Post by **markl** » 25 Sep 2007, 01:38

ringsider wrote:
..... i cant imagine any welterweight out boxing Tommy Hearns......
How about not imagining?......Sugar Ray Leonard ring a bell?

Lol, Hearns boxed circles around Leonard.

He beats Gavilan by a 9-6ish decision. The kid would have him hang on a bit at the end. But he didn't have the power to stop him

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 25 Sep 2007, 03:22

markl wrote:
ringsider wrote:
..... i cant imagine any welterweight out boxing Tommy Hearns......
How about not imagining?......Sugar Ray Leonard ring a bell?
Lol, Hearns boxed circles around Leonard.

He beats Gavilan by a 9-6ish decision. The kid would have him hang on a bit at the end. But he didn't have the power to stop him

I may agree with you on that, but I give The Keed the victory. Gavilan would invite him to trade punches in the latter rounds, plus the pressure he'd put on The Hitman, it would be too much. Gavilan is more aggressive than Leonard. Every time a boxer gave Hearns pressure, he could not handle it: Aaron Pryor (in the amateurs), Leonard (when he really decided to turn it on), Hagler and Barkley.

theone · Post by **theone** » 25 Sep 2007, 08:27

I may agree with you on that, but I give The Keed the victory. Gavilan would invite him to trade punches in the latter rounds, plus the pressure he'd put on The Hitman, it would be too much. Gavilan is more aggressive than Leonard. Every time a boxer gave Hearns pressure, he could not handle it: Aaron Pryor (in the amateurs), Leonard (when he really decided to turn it on), Hagler and Barkley.

Gavilan had the chin, but did not posses the power of any of those guys mentioned. That was the key to all of them beating Hearns. Gavalan hardly ever scored any ko's over top fighters he faced. At Welterweight Hearns chin wasn't an issue; Leonard had to land ALOT of clean hard punches to finish him. So did Hagler actually, who I think was the one that damaged Hearns ability to take a shot.

Now While i believe Hearns would win a UD, a ko is not out of the question. Duran and Cuevas were both granite chinned until Hearns landed that laser beam right hand. Even Hagler was staggered by it.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 25 Sep 2007, 10:52

Lol, Hearns boxed circles around Leonard.

Oh he did, did he? Then how come he was stopped in the 14th, if he boxed so well?

What a dumbshit you are..

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 25 Sep 2007, 11:11

My fellow Cubans will not like this, but I believe that Tommy would win. He had more power and his long height would give Gavilan fits. Also Gavilan would not have the power to hurt Hearns.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 25 Sep 2007, 17:24

ringsider wrote:
Lol, Hearns boxed circles around Leonard.
Oh he did, did he? Then how come he was stopped in the 14th, if he boxed so well?

What a dumbshit you are..

No one on here is a dumber dumbshit than you are. Hearns out boxed Leonard handily prior to the knock out. Thats like saying that Taylor boxed terribly against Chavez before Chavez rallied to stop him.

I would favor Hearns to win maybe three fights out of five against Gavilan, but to be fair I've only seen three Gavilan fights on film.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 25 Sep 2007, 18:15

theone wrote:
I may agree with you on that, but I give The Keed the victory. Gavilan would invite him to trade punches in the latter rounds, plus the pressure he'd put on The Hitman, it would be too much. Gavilan is more aggressive than Leonard. Every time a boxer gave Hearns pressure, he could not handle it: Aaron Pryor (in the amateurs), Leonard (when he really decided to turn it on), Hagler and Barkley.
Gavilan had the chin, but did not posses the power of any of those guys mentioned. That was the key to all of them beating Hearns. Gavalan hardly ever scored any ko's over top fighters he faced. At Welterweight Hearns chin wasn't an issue; Leonard had to land ALOT of clean hard punches to finish him. So did Hagler actually, who I think was the one that damaged Hearns ability to take a shot.

Now While i believe Hearns would win a UD, a ko is not out of the question. Duran and Cuevas were both granite chinned until Hearns landed that laser beam right hand. Even Hagler was staggered by it.

Gavilan does not have to win by KO. Hearns chin was not up to par either with a feather fisted fellow like Gvilan. In the 50s, guys were a lot stronger to stop. Gavilan in the 70s or 80s would have had a much better KO percentage.

Aaron Pryor in the amateurs beat him with pressure. Iran Barkley did the same twice, even though Hearns was past his best. Hagler's pressure was unbeliavable and when Leonard heat it on, it was over.

Gavilan had the technical skills of Hagler and Leonard. He was almost a complete fighter like Hearns. One did not had the punch, and the other did not had the chin.

But I believe at 154 or above, Hearns would win because he looked stronger there than at 147, could carry the weight better than the Keed because of his long frame (6'1") and probably at 154 and 160 Hearns hit harder.

theone · Post by **theone** » 25 Sep 2007, 18:54

Gavilan does not have to win by KO. Hearns chin was not up to par either with a feather fisted fellow like Gvilan.

As I mention before, Hearns didn't start having trouble taking punches until after the Hagler fight. Both Hagler and Leonard hit him with alot of power shots and he ended both fights, barely, on his feet.

In the 50s, guys were a lot stronger to stop. Gavilan in the 70s or 80s would have had a much better KO percentage.

With all due respect, I don't buy this at all. Whats makes you say that?

Aaron Pryor in the amateurs beat him with pressure. Iran Barkley did the same twice, even though Hearns was past his best.

None of that happened in Hearns welterweight prime so its irrelevant.

markl · Post by **markl** » 25 Sep 2007, 18:59

ringsider wrote:
Lol, Hearns boxed circles around Leonard.
Oh he did, did he? Then how come he was stopped in the 14th, if he boxed so well?

What a dumbshit you are..

He was outslugged and wore down from body punches. But he won the majority of the rounds by outboxing Leonard. it was a great fight. You should watch it sometime.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 25 Sep 2007, 21:53

Hearns out boxed Leonard handily prior to the knock out. Thats like saying that Taylor boxed terribly against Chavez before Chavez rallied to stop him.

You guys are idiots........you don't out box someone and then get KO'd....you get KO'd because you didn't box properly. Watch the fight, Chavez destroyed Taylor's body.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 25 Sep 2007, 22:08

You're the idiot my little friend. Hearns was up considerably against Leonard at the time of the knockout. Leonard had some moments in the middle rounds, but he had to rally to win the fight. Prior to Leonard's rally Hearns was winning handily.

theone · Post by **theone** » 25 Sep 2007, 22:57

You guys are idiots........you don't out box someone and then get KO'd....you get KO'd because you didn't box properly.

That statement doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

So Walcott wasn't outboxing Marciano in the first fight?
Nunn wasn't outboxing Toney?
John David Jackson wasnt outboxing Castro?
Laurent Dauthuille wasnt outboxing Lamotta?

Theres tons of other examples I'm sure, but its strange i would even need to site four.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Sep 2007, 06:26

theone wrote:
In the 50s, guys were a lot stronger to stop. Gavilan in the 70s or 80s would have had a much better KO percentage.
With all due respect, I don't buy this at all. Whats makes you say that?

I think elmer means that in the 1950s refs didn't stop fights as quickly or as easily as they did in the 1980s.

Gavilan would have had more KOs if he had been fighting in the 80s.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Sep 2007, 07:04

Terry D wrote:Hearns' body was weaker at the weight so Ray played the long game and made him use a lot of steam.

Overall I think Thomas was the better fighter but Ringsider is correct in that Hearns knew it was 15 rounds and as his body was writing checks it could not cash then Ray did not get a fluke win.

This was not a single shot bolt from the blue. Sometimes to win a fight, or a round for that matter, you have to put a lot into it whereas your opponent is doing his work and saving himself for when his work comes to fruition.

A trainer watched a fight with one of his boxers and with one guy winning, seemingly, his boxer turned to the trainer and said guy A was going t win but the trainer pointed out that guy A was putting a lot into winning the rounds and it would tell. Sure enough fighter B won the fight a little later on with A a spent force.

Hearns was giving a lot of himself to keep his nose in front and it came crashing down around him. Leonard won the fight fairly and squarely. At LM it may have been a different story but who is to say that Hearns' fragility in certain areas would not have left him facing a loss.

The same proviso can be applied to the Chavez-Tayor fight and Nunn-Toney. There are still people who think Toney winged a left hook and got a win. These people should be banned from the sport.

I think the Toney win over Nunn was in the game plan.

Leonard and Chavez's wins are great and legitimate but I think they were improvised (maybe all the greater because of it). Both Chavez and Leonard look bemused and defeated at points in the fight.

I'm not suggesting they were lucky bolts out of the blue, or that they did not put the worlk in, just that neither of them anticipated being so far behind in their fights.

tgchungmj · Post by **tgchungmj** » 26 Sep 2007, 07:13

Robinson was in his prime when he fought Gavilan and the fight was very close. I don't think Hearns can fight with Robinson as well as Gavilan.

Hearns is not good at close trading and has a weak body. Gavilan was very tough and 15 rounds is too long for Hearns to fight with such a ferocious fighter-Gavilan.

I am sure Gavilan will get a KO at late rounds against Hearns. Hearns showed he had problems with fighters such as Roldan, Barkley, Leonard and Hagler. Hearns' stamina was not good with the fighters who has a good pressing and great stamina. Gavilan' punch power is not good but has relentless attack and unbelievable stamina.Stamina will make the 15 round fight favorable to Gavilan.

Even prime Robinson and Williams couldn't knock out Gavilan.

Gavilan was too tough for Hearns.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 26 Sep 2007, 18:16

tgchungmj wrote:Robinson was in his prime when he fought Gavilan and the fight was very close. I don't think Hearns can fight with Robinson as well as Gavilan.

Hearns is not good at close trading and has a weak body. Gavilan was very tough and 15 rounds is too long for Hearns to fight with such a ferocious fighter-Gavilan.

I am sure Gavilan will get a KO at late rounds against Hearns. Hearns showed he had problems with fighters such as Roldan, Barkley, Leonard and Hagler. Hearns' stamina was not good with the fighters who has a good pressing and great stamina. Gavilan' punch power is not good but has relentless attack and unbelievable stamina.Stamina will make the 15 round fight favorable to Gavilan.

Even prime Robinson and Williams couldn't knock out Gavilan.

Gavilan was too tough for Hearns.

That is the same thing I am trying to say. Kid Gavilan was an exceptional fighter. Too tough, fast, skilled, granite chin, awesome stamina and great work-rate. The pressure he put on Gil Turner was unbelievable. I do not think that Hearns could last 15 rounds of pure fighting in heated exchanges. Once you pass the 5th round against him, it looks that he did not had no more power in his fists. I cannot see him stop Gavilan. Especially when Gavilan was at his very best.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 26 Sep 2007, 18:18

To add more, this fight is like Benn-McClellan version at 147. I probably pick Hearns at 160 to win. But at 147, I pick Gavilan.

markl · Post by **markl** » 27 Sep 2007, 20:41

Is there an ignore function?

It would be nice to never have to read another post from Ringsider.