Sugar Ray Robinson: 5 guys that would have beaten him

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 26 Sep 2007, 19:04

These 5 guys I think at their very best would have beaten a prime Sugar Ray Robinson in a 5 fight series. Watching the original Sugar Ray fight, there is no question of his greatness. But I saw some flaws that the fighters below would have taken advantage of it.

1. Sugar Ray Leonard at 147 lbs: Like Robinson, Leonard was also exceptional. Probably a carbon copy of Ali or the real Sugar Ray. But in my opinion, Leonard was more complete than the original Sugar Ray. Maybe the original Sugar Ray had better punching power, but I do not think that Leonard would have get stopped by him. We witnessed that he took the best shots of Marcos Geraldo, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran when he was in his prime. Always a guy that liked to study his opponents on film before fights, Leonard would find something. In the latter rounds, Leonard used to get stronger as the fight progressed, while Robinson looked like he weakend in his stamina after the 10th round. Both guys will throw hooks to the body, but their bodies were so conditioned in that area that neither of the two will wilt. Leonard, like the way he fought Duran in those 2 fights, was great. I pick Leonard as better inside fighter than Robinson and more determined. Leonard wins the series probably 3-2 or 4-1. I pick Robinson to win at 160 though.

2. Roberto Duran at 147 lbs: When I see his fights with DeJesus (final match) and Leonard I in Montreal, we forget to see how magnificent "Manos de Piedra" was in his prime. A pure fighter. More complete fighter than Robinson in my view. I have never seen somebody making you miss at close range in the infighting, giving you all kinds of angles. Leonard nor DeJesus could do nothing about it. When Duran had something to prove, like Robinson, he was at his very best. Giving the styles, when Duran was motivated and in great shape, was a perfect fighting machine. I have not seen no one better in my 29 years of watching fights. We also tend to forget that Duran's most underrated asset was not his punching power or defense. It was his SPEED. If Carmen Basilio made Robinson missed and gave him unbeliavable pressure, what then we cannot think about Duran giving him pressure a la Montreal? Basilio does not have Duran technical abilities. If we say that Robinson was shot, then ain't Basilio was going up in weight and smaller than he? Duran wins the series or 4-1, that is if he is at his complete best.

3. Carlos Monzon at 160 lbs: NO MATTER WHAT VERSION OF ROBINSON YOU THROW AT KING CARLOS, I cannot see Robinson winning a fight here. Monzon's technique LOOKED TERRIBLE in some sort of way and in some people's standards, but he was a very tough man to discourage. I cannot see Robinson outboxing him either. Who was stronger? I give the edge to Monzon. Robinson had never fought someone of Monzon's physical attributes. Robinson never fought someone that had that long reach. Robinson probably never fought someone as intelligent as King Carlos, that made you fight at his pace, no matter what. In the infighting, probably Robinson had the edge there, but I cannot see King Carlos get rattled. If you came dirty at him, he fought dirtier. Monzon would probably not KO Robinson, but would win all the fights via unanimous decision.

4. Marvin Hagler at 160 lbs: Watching his fights at his very best, "Marvelous Marvin" was one of the most complete fighters that I have ever seen in my lifetime. He could box, he could trade, he could punch, had awesome stamina, great chin, and was tough as nails. Maybe Robinson had the advantage of speed and power and height, but that's about it. Marvin had better stamina than Robinson, punched more than Robinson in the latter rounds, and always finished strong in all his fights. In a 5 fight series, I pick Marvin 3-2. This is the closest that Robinson can get against all the 5 great ones.

5. Bob Foster at 175 lbs: At 175 lbs??? Forget it!!! I cannot see no one coming up in from the middleweights and defeat Bob Foster. One of the finest light heavys of all time and one of history of boxing greatest punchers. Robinson went up in weight and was beating the circles of Joey Maxim, a great fighter of the 175 lb class, but Maxim is not Bob Foster. Ask Dick Tiger. Can Robinson take a shot from this monster? Foster would keep him at bay with his long range jab. In the exchanges, probably Robinson would have have the edge, but will not have the power to stop a bigger foe like Foster. Foster was a monster at light heavyweight. Only 3 of his 8 losses were against light heavys, but those were losses when he was probably green or learning the trade or when he was in decline. Once he learned the trade, at 175, nobody could stop him!!! Foster would stop him every time they fight. Too much power for the Original Sugar Ray.

These are the 5 guys that I see beating Robinson in a 5-fight series. Others like the great Pernell Whitaker, and complete great fighters like Mike McCallum, and Bernard Hopkins could also would have beaten him, but I do not see them winning the series. First, Whitaker would probably win one fight of the series or two, because of his boxing cleverness, but Robinson would probably be too strong for him. Hopkins and McCallum? Well, Hopkins best night when he beat Felix "Tito" Trinidad looked awesome, but Robinson is not Tito. And McCallum probably win one fight or 2 against the original Sugar Ray, but will not win the series.

Let's see your opinions. I feel that this would be a long thread of opinions. Get ready experts.

theone · Post by **theone** » 26 Sep 2007, 19:22

Could have? Of course they're all great fighters. I believe though that Robinson would win a series against all of them except for Foster and Monzon. I think those two beat Robinson ALOT more often than not.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Sep 2007, 20:25

This is one of the most delusional threads ever.

Do you freaks ever deal with the REAL world?

That would be too terrifying, wouldn't it.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Sep 2007, 20:49

"Could" is one thing. Most of those men "could" beat Robinson. "Would" is another thing. That said, Robinson would kick Duran's ass, that one isn't much of a "could", let alone a "would." Robinson was something like 36 and 37 years old when he fought Basilio, Basilio would get whipped by a prime Robinson.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 26 Sep 2007, 20:54

granberry wrote:This is one of the most delusional threads ever.

Do you freaks ever deal with the REAL world?

That would be too terrifying, wouldn't it.

"Freaks"?

Really, Cranky, you do get away with a lot of abuse don't you?

I think it's because old Buzz actually feels sorry for you.

I mean, based on your bitter posts, what sort of existence can you lead?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:00

Of the men mentioned (i wont even talk Foster because that's ridiculous because he was 175 pounds and dabbled at Heavyweight, while Robinson only fought for the 175 title once), i think Duran, Hagler and Monzon stand the best chance at doing the job...no disrespect to Ray Leonard, but I always thought of him as a watered down version of Robinson, over-rated and nothing but a hot dogger who had more undeserved opprotunities and gift decisions than most fighters i have seen.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:01

HomicideHenry wrote:Of the men mentioned (i wont even talk Foster because that's ridiculous because he was 175 pounds and dabbled at Heavyweight, while Robinson only fought for the 175 title once), i think Duran, Hagler and Monzon stand the best chance at doing the job...no disrespect to Ray Leonard, but I always thought of him as a watered down version of Robinson, over-rated and nothing but a hot dogger who had more undeserved opprotunities and gift decisions than most fighters i have seen.

Hahahahah, apart from Ali, of course?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:03

granberry, Monzon would very likely defeat Robinson...you know it I know it and Bob Dole knows it. Your just whistling through the graveyard on that one and you know it.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:17

I Feel Fine wrote:"Could" is one thing. Most of those men "could" beat Robinson. "Would" is another thing. That said, Robinson would kick Duran's ass, that one isn't much of a "could", let alone a "would." Robinson was something like 36 and 37 years old when he fought Basilio, Basilio would get whipped by a prime Robinson.

Robinson at his very best never fought someone of Duran, Leonard or Hagler's caliber. At his best, he had a "GIFT DECISION" with the great Kid Gavilan which according to some sources, Gavilan beat him twice.

And beating a prime Basilio at welter? Probably would have. But I would not be surprised if Basilio at his best and Robinson at his best that Basilio would have won the series.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:31

Collins2000 wrote:
granberry wrote:This is one of the most delusional threads ever.

Do you freaks ever deal with the REAL world?

That would be too terrifying, wouldn't it.

"Freaks"?

Really, Cranky, you do get away with a lot of abuse don't you?

I think it's because old Buzz actually feels sorry for you.

I mean, based on your bitter posts, what sort of existence can you lead?

Has clueless Collins (buzz's boy) ever read any of his own posts?

LOL

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:47

elmersalsa wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:"Could" is one thing. Most of those men "could" beat Robinson. "Would" is another thing. That said, Robinson would kick Duran's ass, that one isn't much of a "could", let alone a "would." Robinson was something like 36 and 37 years old when he fought Basilio, Basilio would get whipped by a prime Robinson.
Robinson at his very best never fought someone of Duran, Leonard or Hagler's caliber. At his best, he had a "GIFT DECISION" with the great Kid Gavilan which according to some sources, Gavilan beat him twice.

And beating a prime Basilio at welter? Probably would have. But I would not be surprised if Basilio at his best and Robinson at his best that Basilio would have won the series.

Did Robinson steal your grandfathers lunch money or something?

Robinson may-may-have gotten a gift in the first Gavilan fight. I've never seen any questions about the second decision. Gene Fullmer would stomp on Duran, and if Robinson could beat Basilio at 37, Robinson at 27 shouldn't have too many problems with him.

If Robinson never met anyone as good as Hagler and Leonard, they never met anyone as good as Robinson.

And as henry said, mentioning Bob Foster is just silly... you may as well bring Joe Frazier into the mix.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Sep 2007, 22:28

TO REPEAT:

This is one of the most delusional threads ever.

Do you freaks ever deal with the REAL world?

That would be too terrifying, wouldn't it.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 27 Sep 2007, 00:51

..hey elmer...my buddy.....when you name these five fighters who could have beaten robinson i am assuming you mean if they all fought him AT THE SAME TIME.

re:gavilan....no...the keed didn't get robbed. the sugarman knew he would be the best gate attraction in a title fight, so he didn't go all out in the first one, though gavilan did make him step... and there were times in the title fight when the sortswriters said robinson was coasting for a few rounds. again, though , gavilan kept up a fast pace. and sugar ray often said he hit gavilan with as hard a punch as he ever did anybody, and the hawk didn't even blink.
for a closer robinson title defense, consider the virtually forgotten bernard docusen. he was a good boxer and so fast he kept pace with robinson for a while and was holding his own until robinson scored a knockdown in a later round. docusen got up, but he was more cautious for the rest of the fight and sugar ray closed stronger to win the decision.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 27 Sep 2007, 01:21

granberry wrote:TO REPEAT:

This is one of the most delusional threads ever.

Do you freaks ever deal with the REAL world?

That would be too terrifying, wouldn't it.

I agree with granberry on this one...

I was expecting a list like:

Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 27 Sep 2007, 04:09

Duran would get slaughtered at 147 against Robinson, Monzan at 160 and Foster at 175 have the best chance. I cant see Hagler beating him if he couldnt beat a worse version of SRR in SRL.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Sep 2007, 04:36

For me personally, Carlos Monzon & Ezzard Charles come to mind. Monzon, especially.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 27 Sep 2007, 09:15

HomicideHenry wrote:Of the men mentioned (i wont even talk Foster because that's ridiculous because he was 175 pounds and dabbled at Heavyweight, while Robinson only fought for the 175 title once), i think Duran, Hagler and Monzon stand the best chance at doing the job...no disrespect to Ray Leonard, but I always thought of him as a watered down version of Robinson, over-rated and nothing but a hot dogger who had more undeserved opprotunities and gift decisions than most fighters i have seen.

Homocide-Are you kidding?
No disrespect, but Leonard was overrated and nothing but a hotdogger?

I would say that is a lot of disrespect. An awful lot.
He was a fighter who had it all, speed,boxing skills, power, defense,chin, heart, smarts.
He beat 9 ranked opponents before he got a title shot. He beat four great fighters in his career, Benitez,Duran, Hearns and Hagler.
As for the amount of "gift decsions" that he got, the most you can say is one. You can plausibly say he should not have gotten the draw with Hearns, but that's it. He won a grand total of two decisions in title fights in his career.

A lot of people for whatever reason don't like Leonard, but it absolutely ridiculaus to call him nothing but a hotdogger. He is one of the greatest fighters of all time.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Sep 2007, 09:28

Leonard was a top fighter. If you want to compare him to Robinson the main difference would be that Robinson was a more powerful puncher, but Leonard was no slouch either in the power dept.

If I was to criticise Loenard it would be for the way his career was conducted, but when he was actually in the ring he was a great fighter.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Sep 2007, 09:31

I see the best middleweight Robinson vs Monzon as a 50/50 fight. Monzon's strength and consistency would've given Ray lots of problems but Carlos could have problems with slick boxers . . .he struggled vs an old Emile Griffith.

I love Hagler as a fighter but he just doesn't have the tools to beat Robinson. Ray would win a great spirited fight on points.

Duran-Robinson: Robinson too strong and fast at welterweight. The Duran that won a very close fight with Leonard is not beating a peak Robinson. P4P the lightweight Duran v a welter Robinson is a great matchup but in the real world Duran does not have enough.

Leonard-Robinson is a great matchup. I say Robinson's longer fast jab is the difference and the original wins on points. Remember this is a 147 Robinson who was also lightening fast, not the much slower version who warred with Fullmer and Basillo.

Elmer is clearly looking at Robinson's fights when he was in his mid 30s and equating that to a prime Ray. Robinson at his best had INCREDIBLE stamina and was extremely quick and crafty.

jonp · Post by **jonp** » 27 Sep 2007, 12:40

How do you think Charley Burley would have got on versus Robinson?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Sep 2007, 14:44

If anything Robinson was bigger than Hagler. Hagler was a small middleweight.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 27 Sep 2007, 15:33

elmersalsa wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:"Could" is one thing. Most of those men "could" beat Robinson. "Would" is another thing. That said, Robinson would kick Duran's ass, that one isn't much of a "could", let alone a "would." Robinson was something like 36 and 37 years old when he fought Basilio, Basilio would get whipped by a prime Robinson.
Robinson at his very best never fought someone of Duran, Leonard or Hagler's caliber. At his best, he had a "GIFT DECISION" with the great Kid Gavilan which according to some sources, Gavilan beat him twice.

And beating a prime Basilio at welter? Probably would have. But I would not be surprised if Basilio at his best and Robinson at his best that Basilio would have won the series.

The Robinson that fought Basilio would've lost to Duran (assuming a prime Duran, of course). However, a prime Robinson is a different story and I'll give the edge to Robinson. Although Duran would've been a live underdog.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Sep 2007, 16:06

Decagon wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:If anything Robinson was bigger than Hagler. Hagler was a small middleweight.
Robinson was three inches taller than Hagler, but when Robinson was at his best as a middleweight, he weighed at 152 to 154 pounds. Also, Hagler had a longer reach by 2 or 3 inches. Hagler was bigger in some ways, and Robinson was bigger in others. I'd say that Hagler was bigger myself, but that's just my opinion.

Hagler was regularly 157-58, Ray was 157 for the Graziano and Turpin knockouts.
He had the longer reach? It looks from film that Robinson has the longer punches. I could be wrong.

Regardless, to say Hagler was "too big" for Robinson is very faulty. Fullmer was a mountain of a middleweight and bigger than Hagler (not tall but he was very thick and solidly built), extremely durable and went the distance vs a lot of very tough hard hitters but only Robinson knocked him out.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 27 Sep 2007, 21:28

Basilio beat Ray. And Ray beat Basilio. And Ray was 36 and 37 years old. If you want to talk about Robinson at his best at Middleweight against Hagler at his best at Middleweight you would talk about Robinson in 51, when he was 31. That Robinson could beat Hagler. Personally, I think either man could win, which is why I think elmer is wrong in his premise that Hagler "would" win.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 28 Sep 2007, 03:13

I Feel Fine wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:"Could" is one thing. Most of those men "could" beat Robinson. "Would" is another thing. That said, Robinson would kick Duran's ass, that one isn't much of a "could", let alone a "would." Robinson was something like 36 and 37 years old when he fought Basilio, Basilio would get whipped by a prime Robinson.
Robinson at his very best never fought someone of Duran, Leonard or Hagler's caliber. At his best, he had a "GIFT DECISION" with the great Kid Gavilan which according to some sources, Gavilan beat him twice.

And beating a prime Basilio at welter? Probably would have. But I would not be surprised if Basilio at his best and Robinson at his best that Basilio would have won the series.
Did Robinson steal your grandfathers lunch money or something?

Robinson may-may-have gotten a gift in the first Gavilan fight. I've never seen any questions about the second decision. Gene Fullmer would stomp on Duran, and if Robinson could beat Basilio at 37, Robinson at 27 shouldn't have too many problems with him.

If Robinson never met anyone as good as Hagler and Leonard, they never met anyone as good as Robinson.

And as henry said, mentioning Bob Foster is just silly... you may as well bring Joe Frazier into the mix.

There was no questions of the second decision of course... This fight (Gavilan-Robinson) is one of the most hush-hush fights of all-time. It's like when Neil Armstrong supposedly "walk on the moon" or the terrorists attacks on 9/11, which many people believe that it was a conspiracy.

Hagler met someone as good as Robinson: Ray Leonard, LIKE IT OR NOT. NOW YOU ARE TRYING TO MATCH FULLMER VS DURAN AT MIDDLEWEIGHT. THAT IS A SILLY fight to compare one guy against the other. Put Fullmer at lightweight or at welterweight and we see a different story.

Robinson hardly beat Basilio....He chickened out to give him a rematch.

Sugar Ray Robinson is like Muhammad Ali in a couple of ways. American historians want to make him #1, he could never lose, he is all that, there would be no one like him. Well, there would never be anothet Sugar Ray Leonard, neither. There would never be another Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran or Marvin Hagler.

And why is silly putting Bob Foster into the mix? Robinson fought one time at 175lbs right?