Ken Norton and the hypnotist

[dagosd2000]

I'm glad I opened up the controversy of Ali/Norton and what this has manifested into. Some of the replies are a psychiatrist's dream. Some of you are really angry. Ali never paid my rent

[DaveV17]

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[I Feel Fine]

As I said earlier, I have shown that I am not biased, because there are fights that Ali won that I thought he should have lost; Norton III, Young, Shavers. There are plenty of people who thought Ali won those fights, if I was an Ali hugger I could easily find ways to say that he deserved those wins, but I don't think he did. You, on the other hand, have not shown yourself to be able to score a close Ali fight objectively. Ergo, you are in no position to accuse me of bias. That's all there is to say. What indication have you shown here of being even handed in terms of Ali? None.

I can confidently say I've forgotten more about boxing than either of you two will ever know.

[dagosd2000]

I remember the black reporter on 60 Minutes who passed away(I'm sorry I forgot his name) when he interviewed Ali a few years ago. He asked Ali where his trophies and awards were. His wife Lonnie said he put them in the barn. The reporter went inside the barn and to his surprise saw that the trophies,medals,belts,etc. were covered with dust and mold and bird droppings. I think that's Ali's way of saying that that part of his life is over and now he's in a better place,not physically,but spiritually. I remember Ali asked the Ayatollah to exchange himself for the hostages in Iran. I think Ali would tell his fans(and I'm one of them) to find peace. God bless you Muhammad Ali.

[Collins2000]

Decagon,
Here are the posts of my scoring of the fight, they are on page 2 of this thread. I had to watch the fight in sections so there are 3-4 posts.

Round 1 - Feeling out, Ali moving, Norton pressing. No big punches, I scored it EVEN. 10-10

Round 2 - Ali moving and slapping his punches off of his toes. The punches have no effect on Norton. Norton is pressing Ali, landing some solid blows, and even picked Ali up on the ropes. Norton round, 10-9.
Norton 20-19

Round 3 - Norton stalking Ali, hurt Ali to the body. Norton is starting to take control of the fight. Ali is running and flicking a mostly ineffective jab. Norton's round, 10-9
Norton 30-28.

Round 4 - Norton stalking Ali, landing solid shots. Ali doing a little better at times, but Norton won the round by hurting Ali at the bell. Norton's round, 10-9.
Norton 40-37.

Round 5 - Ali is starting to try to hold Norton. Norton is getting stronger and is getting to Ali with the jab then working inside. At the bell, Norton screamed at Ali, letting Ali know that he (Norton) is in charge. Norton 10-9.
Norton 50-46.

I'll watch the rest when I have some more time. So far it is cat and mouse, with Norton the cat having his way with Ali. Ali can not punch hard off of his toes and is going to have to plant his feet if he hopes to get Norton's respect. Norton is walking through him so far.

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DaveV17



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 289

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject:

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Round 6 - Ali's best round, he planted his feet and tried to throw some meaningful punches. Whenever Ali landed, Norton answered back and continued to make Ali miss while pressing him. Ali landed his best combination of the fight, but it didn't bother Norton. Close round, I gave it to Ali 10-9
59-56 Norton

Round 7 - Norton got to Ali big this round, hurting him and keeping him hurt the entire round. A dominant round for Norton that could be scored 10-8, but I scored it 10-9. Norton is dominating at this point.
69-65 Norton.

Last edited by DaveV17 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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DaveV17



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 289

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:

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Round 8 - More of the same, Ali is open for Norton's hook and took a good one late, Norton still pursuing effectively, Ali in retreat.
Norton 10-9
79-74 Norton

Round 9 - Ali looks tired, Norton landing well to the head and the body. Norton is walking Ali down. 10-9 Norton
89-83 Norton

Round 10 - Ali started off well in this round, landed some decent punches, but Norton still landing left hooks at will to Ali. Ali was stunned by a hook late. Norton 10-9
99-92 Norton.

Last edited by DaveV17 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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DaveV17



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 289

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject:

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Round 11 - Norton hurt Ali to the body early. Norton landing hooks and uppercuts at will. Norton tired late in the round, but Ali could not take adavantage. Norton 10-9
Norton 109-101

Round 12 - Ali starts fast, Norton pursues, Ali lands some of his best shots, but Norton answers and corners Ali at the 1:20 mark. They continue to exchange until the :20 second mark when Ali tires and Norton batters him for the last 20 seconds of the round. 10-10
Norton 119- 111

I would like to see punch stat numbers for this fight. Norton landed a huge percentage of his shots. The stiff jab, the uppercuts, and especially the hook landed consistently all night. At the end, it was obvious that Ali thought he had lost, he shoved Bundini Brown when he went back to his corner after the 12th. There was no happiness shown by Ali. I didn't remember that fight as being as one sided as it was. Ali just had nothing to keep Norton away or to get Norton's respect. Ali had difficulty landing anything on Norton, Norton slipped and parried Ali's jab effectively the entire fight.

Maybe the judges were swayed by the pro-Ali crowd or the idea that Ali would retire if he lost. Norton was robbed.

Dave, no offence but you have absolutely no idea of what you are seeing, mate.

I just watched and scored the first 3 rounds. Ali won them all. The 1st by a mile, the 2nd was closer and the 3rd by a mile.

Did you give Norton points for standing there like a statue getting cuffed around?

You need to sit down with someone who understands boxing and who can explain to you what is actually happening.

[DaveV17]

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[Collins2000]

Collins, I thought maybe you knew something about boxing. I was wrong.

Me, the judges, the commentators, the sports editors of the time, the magazine writers of the time, the majority of reasonable fans who post in here. In fact anyone who isn't an Ali hater. Yep, we were all wrong.

So, it was 9 rounds Norton, 1 round ali, with 2 even? Ali won 1 round? Fekkin ridiculous, mate.

You make Crankberry seem reasonable, Dave.

[DaveV17]

edit

[granberry]

Who was the "hypnotist?

Foreman?

Shavers?

Garcia?

[granberry]

I can confidently say I've forgotten more about boxing than either of you two will ever know.

Sorry, pal.

You can't forget something you never knew.

.

[granberry]

I remember the black reporter on 60 Minutes who passed away(I'm sorry I forgot his name) when he interviewed Ali a few years ago. He asked Ali where his trophies and awards were. His wife Lonnie said he put them in the barn. The reporter went inside the barn and to his surprise saw that the trophies,medals,belts,etc. were covered with dust and mold and bird droppings. I think that's Ali's way of saying that that part of his life is over and now he's in a better place,not physically,but spiritually. I remember Ali asked the Ayatollah to exchange himself for the hostages in Iran. I think Ali would tell his fans(and I'm one of them) to find peace. God bless you Muhammad Ali.

What a load of crap.

[elmersalsa]

I was there at the first fight and Ali was in real trouble in the last round. I knew Frank Rustich the ref and asked him if he was thinking of stopping the fight. He replied," There was too much money on the fight for me to stop it." Anyone else - stoppage TKO. They always show Ali's fights with Foreman,Frazier III, the fights before the retirement on TV. They should repeatedly show his fights with Norton on TV. Ali's image would certainly diminish. I know,Ali was past his prime,but Ken Norton's only impressive win was against Quarry. Ali never had a point taken away for holding behind the neck. He was like a cult hero after he came out of retirement and it clouded the fans and judges scoring of his fights. Even today people only seem to see him winning his fights later in his career. Put another head on that body and he would of had some more losses. Another 2 Ali fights you don't see on TV:Ali/Spinks I and II. Ali losing to a 7 and 0 pro. He looked awful. The judges couldn't give him that one. And the 2nd fight was a carbon copy of the 1st. Spinks was too fast for Ali. Ali clinched and grabbed. I remember Ferdi Pacheco at ringside calling the color. What in the hell was he looking at? Ali could do no wrong. On classic fight specials on TV I never hear Angelo Dundee talk about Norton or Spinks

I love this post...you are great!!!

[elmersalsa]

dagosd2000,
The ones who get angry are the ones who think Ali is Superman. They hate when anything about Ali is quesioned. They have had their way for so long, they don't want anyone to read the truth. They are afraid the Ali myth will crumble.

Another post that I love...great post Dave!!!

[theone]

hey always show Ali's fights with Foreman,Frazier III, the fights before the retirement on TV. They should repeatedly show his fights with Norton on TV. Ali's image would certainly diminish. I know,Ali was past his prime,but Ken Norton's only impressive win was against Quarry. Ali never had a point taken away for holding behind the neck. He was like a cult hero after he came out of retirement and it clouded the fans and judges scoring of his fights. Even today people only seem to see him winning his fights later in his career. Put another head on that body and he would of had some more losses. Another 2 Ali fights you don't see on TV:Ali/Spinks I and II. Ali losing to a 7 and 0 pro. He looked awful. The judges couldn't give him that one. And the 2nd fight was a carbon copy of the 1st. Spinks was too fast for Ali. Ali clinched and grabbed. I remember Ferdi Pacheco at ringside calling the color. What in the hell was he looking at? Ali could do no wrong. On classic fight specials on TV I never hear Angelo Dundee talk about Norton or Spinks

Whenever there is a special on Louis they almost never show the whole Schmeling fight, the first fight with Walcott or when he struggled with Farr.
Foremans fight with Jimmy Young, Fraziers fight with Cummings, Duran's loss to Hearns is hardly ever shown, and his losses to Laing and Simms are never shown at all.
I can go on and on. When a station televises a fight, they televise one that they think the majority of people wanna watch. For the most part fans want to see their favorite fighters best performances.
Not just Ali, but any great fighter of the past gets their best performances shown a lot more than their bad ones.

[Collins2000]

dagosd2000,
The ones who get angry are the ones who think Ali is Superman. They hate when anything about Ali is quesioned. They have had their way for so long, they don't want anyone to read the truth. They are afraid the Ali myth will crumble.

Another post that I love...great post Dave!!!

Esmerelda, instead of giggling like a schoolgirl who has just been goosed, how about giving us your score for the first 3 rounds?

[granberry]

dagosd2000,
The ones who get angry are the ones who think Ali is Superman. They hate when anything about Ali is quesioned. They have had their way for so long, they don't want anyone to read the truth. They are afraid the Ali myth will crumble.

Another post that I love...great post Dave!!!

Esmerelda, instead of giggling like a schoolgirl who has just been goosed, how about giving us your score for the first 3 rounds?

Spitefull young ladies like miss Collins show they don't have a leg to stand on when they resort to attempts at 'insults, as above.

Such juvenile posts destroy any chance this site has of being a worthwhile site.

[Collins2000]

Another post that I love...great post Dave!!!

Esmerelda, instead of giggling like a schoolgirl who has just been goosed, how about giving us your score for the first 3 rounds?

Spitefull young ladies like miss Collins show they don't have a leg to stand on when they resort to attempts at 'insults, as above.

Such juvenile posts destroy any chance this site has of being a worthwhile site.

This is from the old fellow who

(1) refers to everyone as clueless unless, of course they are so clueless as to agree with his world view.

(2) constantly talks about how certain posters couldn't beat their own sister in a fist fight. Such misogynyst views show he is a relic from the past.

(3) picks on poor old Buzz who never hurt a fly (or ever attacked his sister or anyone else's sister for that matter).

(4) probably smells of urine

[I Feel Fine]

I would just say one more time that while iconoclasm isn't necessarily a bad thing, and while skepticism and cynicism and questioning are all good things; many of you don't seem intelligent enough to do it right. Trying to expose myths is one thing, but some of you are trying to create controversy that just isn't there. Trying to say that Ali lost every round to Norton, that Liston threw both fights, and that Ali never fought someone of the caliber of Scott Frank is neither constructive nor legitimate scrutiny.

[granberry]

Esmerelda, instead of giggling like a schoolgirl who has just been goosed, how about giving us your score for the first 3 rounds?

Spitefull young ladies like miss Collins show they don't have a leg to stand on when they resort to attempts at 'insults, as above.

Such juvenile posts destroy any chance this site has of being a worthwhile site.

This is from the old fellow who

(1) refers to everyone as clueless unless, of course they are so clueless as to agree with his world view.

(2) constantly talks about how certain posters couldn't beat their own sister in a fist fight. Such misogynyst views show he is a relic from the past.

(3) picks on poor old Buzz who never hurt a fly (or ever attacked his sister or anyone else's sister for that matter).

(4) probably smells of urine

Boxrec smells of worse than urine once Collins-buzz posts on it.

Can you imagaine what lurkers who take a glance at boxrec think when they see the steady drumbeat of non-boxing, petty, juvenile posts by Collins-buzz cluttering the site?

They think, let me find something worth my time. This site sucks.

[I Feel Fine]

They think, let me find something worth my time. This site sucks.

Perhaps you should join them

[elmersalsa]

hey always show Ali's fights with Foreman,Frazier III, the fights before the retirement on TV. They should repeatedly show his fights with Norton on TV. Ali's image would certainly diminish. I know,Ali was past his prime,but Ken Norton's only impressive win was against Quarry. Ali never had a point taken away for holding behind the neck. He was like a cult hero after he came out of retirement and it clouded the fans and judges scoring of his fights. Even today people only seem to see him winning his fights later in his career. Put another head on that body and he would of had some more losses. Another 2 Ali fights you don't see on TV:Ali/Spinks I and II. Ali losing to a 7 and 0 pro. He looked awful. The judges couldn't give him that one. And the 2nd fight was a carbon copy of the 1st. Spinks was too fast for Ali. Ali clinched and grabbed. I remember Ferdi Pacheco at ringside calling the color. What in the hell was he looking at? Ali could do no wrong. On classic fight specials on TV I never hear Angelo Dundee talk about Norton or Spinks

Whenever there is a special on Louis they almost never show the whole Schmeling fight, the first fight with Walcott or when he struggled with Farr.
Foremans fight with Jimmy Young, Fraziers fight with Cummings, Duran's loss to Hearns is hardly ever shown, and his losses to Laing and Simms are never shown at all.
I can go on and on. When a station televises a fight, they televise one that they think the majority of people wanna watch. For the most part fans want to see their favorite fighters best performances.
Not just Ali, but any great fighter of the past gets their best performances shown a lot more than their bad ones.

Interesting point the one. I would like to see the losses of those guys on replays, but somehow they are not shown. Hearns vs Duran is never on tv. Norton vs Ali II was never shown in any replay at all. At least I have not seen it yet. Robinson vs Turpin I, I only saw it one time on tv.

There is no real sportsmanship when it comes to programming old fights...The reputations of the great fighters like Duran and Ali and others are well protected.

[I Feel Fine]

"VS." shows the Ali-Norton fights a lot. ESPN Classic has shown Robinson-Turpin.

[Ambling Alp]

The third Ali-Norton fights has been shown many times over the years. Both the Ali-Spinks fights have been on ESPN several times over the years. The Ali-Foreman fight (1974) and the 3rd Ali-Frazier fight (1975) weren't rebroadcast until 1990.

[theone]

There is no real sportsmanship when it comes to programming old fights...The reputations of the great fighters like Duran and Ali and others are well protected.

The point I was trying to make is that programmers telecast fights the majority of viewers want to see. Most fans of fighter like Ali and Duran want to see them at their best. It has nothing to do with protecting their reputations.

[granberry]

The reputations of the great fighters like Duran and Ali and others are well protected.

You got that right.