To the Tyson 'haters' :)

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 29 Sep 2007, 05:43

Who could have Mike Tyson have faced to satisfy his nay-Sayers?

Gerry Cooney – Would have beating or fighting the post Holmes, Cooney made any difference to how people thought about Tyson. Should the pair met before Tyson won the title or during his reign, it would most likely have ended in a mid fight TKO win for Tyson.

Greg Page- The talented though inconsistent Page made a name for himself as a sparring partner for Tyson leading up to the Douglas fight, when he dropped Tyson with a short right hand. If Tyson met Page around 1986-88, Page’s cleverness and legs would have seen him lose a boring run and clinch fight where his jab and uppercuts would done little to stave of most of Tyson’s assaults and flurries. A decision win for Tyson reminiscent of Tyson Vs Tillis or Smith.

Tim Witherspoon- The best of the crop of Alphabet champions from the late 1970s and mid 1980s, Terrible Tim had a ferocious right hand and a style that could confuse Tyson throughout. Though the in-shape Tyson would have won a fun filled fight via a stoppage around round 6.

Gerrie Coetzer- The South African’s best was during the early 1980s, though he still had a name and was a former ‘title’ holder, that would have legitimised Tyson’s legacy as often does many past their primes scalps have done in the past. He was also white, which would have seen an angle for some promoters. Tyson wins this fight by KO around round 3.

Mike Weaver- The body beautiful former WBA champion was beyond his supreme days, however he would have provided a nostalgic aura to the fight. Tyson would have blown away Weaver early in the night.

John Tate- Big Tate made a come back around the time of the Tyson era that would have sold some tickets for those that remembered Tate’s brief reign that blessed the boxing scene during the early 80s. Tate would have fallen prey to Tyson’s power and speed around the fifth round.

George Foreman- Big George started his come back when Tyson was hot property and the former champion though working his way up the ranks slowly by gorging himself on journeymen still had a newly found charm and great name sake that would have made the fight an exciting prospect. Tyson would have been too much for Foreman at this time, which had yet to reach his comeback prime and who would have been to big and slow a target, Tyson by decision.

Leon Spinks- By this time Neon Leon was exposed as the gap tooth potential that he was, apart from his Ali fights, Leon had his gold medal to be proud of. Still the former linear champion Spinks was around the place and would have made some people satisfied to see him succumb to his brother’s fate by falling inside a round.

Dwight Qawi- The cruiserweight legend started to make his way about the place in the heavyweight division, not a worthy challenger to any top ten heavyweights at this time, he however is a former title holder and had a name that would have looked good on his record.

I do not need to mention those who Tyson did face, but he did fight linear champions at or near there best, as well as former and current Alphabet champions, however history may view Tyson’s reign or that period in time, let it not be remembered for its controversies, let it be remembered for a colourful chunk of our sports history that saw some of the most talented men ever to lace up gloves show us a glimpse of what they possessed before addiction, affliction and fame drained and robbed them of histories place of pride.

Perhaps should Tyson have drawn a colour line, and refused to have faced ‘coloured’ fighters, or then again maybe if he had of pursued cinema and not defended his title for three years many would consider him a superb legend. Then again he could have campaigned on a tour that saw him face non ranked fighters to challenge him for his title, giving contenders, journeymen, club fighters and former names a chance at glory. Or perhaps he could have fought light-heavyweight greats and retired with a perfect record just before he flew over the Japan. Maybe what Tyson needed was to find a ‘phantom’ punch that would have dropped a normally ironed jawed legend to help satisfy his legacy. Either way no matter who the man is of destiny, there shall always be those who stand from the side lines ready to condemn and find fault. The fact however remains, that they shall always have a place reseserved in our curiosities that will provide hours of thought, debate and pleasure.

Contrary to this rant, I am not a Mike Tyson apologist, more so I am a fan of the era of Heavyweight history, a fan of the men who failed to be great. I just wished to address some thoughts that I had on Mike Tyson and wished to address some of his critics.

Thank You
Kym Robinson

Datsue · Post by **Datsue** » 29 Sep 2007, 08:27

Ummm.... Surely the most important definition of "great" is that one faces adversity and overcomes it.

And every single time Mikey faced adversity, he folded like a deck-chair, or fouled, or quit.

I believe the most vociferous proponents of the "Tyson was always shit" school are simply reacting to oft-told, breathless tales of "legendary Iron Mike" who did slayeth the giant dragon Jose Ribalta, and destroyed the fearsome Henry Tillman et cetera... It's just a reaction against hype, people get rubbed the wrong way and lash out, almost...

Plus, some don't like him 'cos he's a rapist, as anti-social as a nuclear warhead, and is a rapist (in my opinion that's a pretty heavy charge, so I thought I'd mention it twice); also he probably scares white people. These factors combine to an attitude of not giving Mikey his dues, I believe; so he gets dropped from where he should be (about #10 of all-time, but with the proviso that anyone who he hit right could in theory have ended up looking for their head in the cheap seats) to the level where we get people who claim Danny Williams would've beaten him at any point in his career.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 29 Sep 2007, 09:37

Robinson wrote:Who could have Mike Tyson have faced to satisfy his nay-Sayers?
.

Thank You
Kym Robinson

He could've not gotten his ass kicked by Buster Douglas . . .for starters

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 29 Sep 2007, 09:45

Why is this post for so-called Tyson haters?

Does the fact that a fight fan does not think he is the greatest HW (or boxer) ever, mean that you hate him?

The problem with Tyson for me is, he does not get judged the same way as other fighters.

His jockstrap carriers take the period from 1986 - 1988 & say categorically that he would have beaten any HW in history.

That may well be the case, but it's all speculative & we will never truly know.

There is no doubt that Tyson was an extremely gifted fighter.

I've gone on record as saying that his KO of Reggie Gross was one of the finest feats of boxing I've ever seen.

However, when you judge a fighter, you have to look at his WHOLE career.

If you applied that Tyson logic to Donald Curry, you could feasibly argue that he is the greatest Welterweight ever, but it would be plain stupid to do so.

Tyson proved that he could not handle adversity, that he could not fight back from a true losing position or that he had a plan B when things weren't going right.

You need to be able to do all these things if you are to be considered truly great.

Imagine what we would think of Muhammad Ali if he had not returned to the ring in 1970 & went on to dominate the toughest era in HW, with dimished skills?

A fighter needs tio be judged on his WHOLE career, not just a couple of prime years.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 29 Sep 2007, 11:21

Robinson wrote:Who could have Mike Tyson have faced to satisfy his nay-Sayers?

Ahhh...nobody...he demonstrated exactly what he was by the guys he did face...his legacy is crystal clear, the greatest under-achiever in the history of the division...

Talented...yes, heart...none, brains...non-existant, self destructive...massive understatement...

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 29 Sep 2007, 13:25

Decagon wrote:Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis, to start with.

And Hexagon's boy Ali lost to Leon Spinks "to start with."

LOL

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 29 Sep 2007, 14:02

As mentioned above, not losing to Buster Douglas would have done wonders for his legacy.

It is nobodies fault that Tyson dominated during a relatively weak period.

Lewis,Holyfield and Bowe would all have beat a prime Mike

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 29 Sep 2007, 15:26

Wow, I agree w/Decagon, your comparing a 36 year old Ali to a 23 year old Tyson!

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 29 Sep 2007, 20:41

dempseyfire wrote:
Robinson wrote:Who could have Mike Tyson have faced to satisfy his nay-Sayers?
.

Thank You
Kym Robinson
He could've not gotten his ass kicked by Buster Douglas . . .for starters

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 29 Sep 2007, 21:36

Thanks for your replies guys :)

I should have made my rant a tad clearer as I was focusing on hiw
'best' years.

I do however feel that Tyson did show heart inside of the ring,
sure he did try to do things to get himself out of frustrating situations
but he also always tried to get up from the floor on some occasions
and showed when being tested that he had the ability to work through
the situation.

I think Tyson is one of the most complicated characters of the sport
and whether people hate or like him, comdemned or appologise
he is no doubt compelling.

Kym

Des1 · Post by **Des1** » 30 Sep 2007, 12:15

Sweet Scientist wrote:
Robinson wrote:Who could have Mike Tyson have faced to satisfy his nay-Sayers?
Ahhh...nobody...he demonstrated exactly what he was by the guys he did face...his legacy is crystal clear, the greatest under-achiever in the history of the division...

Talented...yes, heart...none, brains...non-existant, self destructive...massive understatement...

How can you say Tyson had no heart? He took a beating like a man in the fights he lost, he looked like he had heart to me againts Douglas and Lewis

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 30 Sep 2007, 17:15

I've posted so many replies on Tyson's standing in HW history, I might aswell not stop now, so here's my view for what it's worth!

Tyson was not the greatest HW, but I believe he had the skills & ability to be the best HW ever. However, he was not. I'm a huge Tyson fan (Mike's my favourite all-time fighter), but it's about keeping things into perspective.

I also think head-to-head, Tyson would only lose to Ali, Louis & Holmes. I really believe Tyson, at his best, was that good. Losing to the three above, there's no shame in that at all.

I remember Tyson once talking about Joe Louis, saying how he couldn't even contemplate boxing Louis, because Louis was to Tyson, that good.

In this day & age, when most fighters are always saying they're the best, could have beaten fighters of the past etc, it's nice too see/hear a guy like Tyson who did achieve a lot in boxing, acknowledging how good past great were!

I expect Tyson to be inducted in the HOF when he eligeable. Other fighters, who never achieved near what Mike did, have been inducted, so on the basis of that, why shouldn't Tyson?

markl · Post by **markl** » 01 Oct 2007, 05:01

Rocky Balboa wrote:I've posted so many replies on Tyson's standing in HW history, I might aswell not stop now, so here's my view for what it's worth!

Tyson was not the greatest HW, but I believe he had the skills & ability to be the best HW ever. However, he was not. I'm a huge Tyson fan (Mike's my favourite all-time fighter), but it's about keeping things into perspective.

I also think head-to-head, Tyson would only lose to Ali, Louis & Holmes. I really believe Tyson, at his best, was that good. Losing to the three above, there's no shame in that at all.

I remember Tyson once talking about Joe Louis, saying how he couldn't even contemplate boxing Louis, because Louis was to Tyson, that good.

In this day & age, when most fighters are always saying they're the best, could have beaten fighters of the past etc, it's nice too see/hear a guy like Tyson who did achieve a lot in boxing, acknowledging how good past great were!

I expect Tyson to be inducted in the HOF when he eligeable. Other fighters, who never achieved near what Mike did, have been inducted, so on the basis of that, why shouldn't Tyson?

He could never beat Holyfield. Put him in the ring instead of Spinks and Mike surely loses.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 03 Oct 2007, 19:00

I think its more of a resentment of the media and publicty machine,that built him up.He probably would have beaten all those oppents if they just let him fight them before he went on the downslide,which in my opion was when he won the "heavyweight" championship from Berbick.
Mission accomplished,youngest heavyweight champion.
It was all down there from that point

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 04 Oct 2007, 04:15

Decagon wrote:
Des1 wrote: How can you say Tyson had no heart? He took a beating like a man in the fights he lost, he looked like he had heart to me againts Douglas and Lewis
When we talk about the positive characteristics or talents of a fighter, we talk about characteristics and talents that actually helped him win fights. Tyson's heart never helped him out of adversity. Tyson's heart never won him a match. Tyson's heart was purely narcissistic; he didn't want to get knocked out, so he stayed in the fight as long as he could, except in the Holyfield rematch, the Williams fight and the McBride fight. Well, I guess his heart didn't come to play in half of his losses, so why mention it in the first place.

Dec is right. Taking a beating doesn't mean you can face adversity and win.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 04 Oct 2007, 05:56

Kym, I agree with all your analyses of Tyson's potential fights, bar Witherspoon. The peak Tim Witherspoon would have been very difficult for Tyson. I think he would have at least gone the distance, and may have done a "Buster Douglas" on Tyson and stopped him late

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 Oct 2007, 23:49

I loved the way Witherspoon fought in a cross defence stance
almost like an old Ambrose Palmer or Johnny Famechon.

Witherspoon Vs Tyson would have been so cool. Shame he got
TKO'd by Smith.

Kym

markl · Post by **markl** » 04 Oct 2007, 23:51

Robinson wrote:I loved the way Witherspoon fought in a cross defence stance
almost like an old Ambrose Palmer or Johnny Famechon.

Witherspoon Vs Tyson would have been so cool. Shame he got
TKO'd by Smith.

Kym

That was pretty much a dive. Not saying he wasn't hit. But he was going through a huge battle with King and put absolutely nothing into that effort. I don't recall him ever touching the canvas in any other fight.

He had manhandled Smith shortly before that.

markl · Post by **markl** » 05 Oct 2007, 02:01

Decagon wrote:
markl wrote:That was pretty much a dive. Not saying he wasn't hit. But he was going through a huge battle with King and put absolutely nothing into that effort. I don't recall him ever touching the canvas in any other fight.

He had manhandled Smith shortly before that.
He was knocked down, and simply didn't know how to deal with it. A lot of fighters get stopped the first time they get badly hurt.

Maybe, it has long been speculated that he took a dive there.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 05 Oct 2007, 08:11

Decagon wrote:
markl wrote:That was pretty much a dive. Not saying he wasn't hit. But he was going through a huge battle with King and put absolutely nothing into that effort. I don't recall him ever touching the canvas in any other fight.

He had manhandled Smith shortly before that.
He was knocked down, and simply didn't know how to deal with it. A lot of fighters get stopped the first time they get badly hurt.

Witherspoon was rocked in the Frank Bruno fight and dealt very well with it......he seemed to have very fine recuperative powers - Bruno could really bang.
The Smith fight was very odd, Tim might not have taken a dive, but it was a very strange result. It didnt seem like the real Tim Witherspoon in there that night

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 05 Oct 2007, 08:51

dr_devious wrote:
Decagon wrote:
markl wrote:That was pretty much a dive. Not saying he wasn't hit. But he was going through a huge battle with King and put absolutely nothing into that effort. I don't recall him ever touching the canvas in any other fight.

He had manhandled Smith shortly before that.
He was knocked down, and simply didn't know how to deal with it. A lot of fighters get stopped the first time they get badly hurt.
Witherspoon was rocked in the Frank Bruno fight and dealt very well with it......he seemed to have very fine recuperative powers - Bruno could really bang.
The Smith fight was very odd, Tim might not have taken a dive, but it was a very strange result. It didnt seem like the real Tim Witherspoon in there that night

Don't forget though that he lost on the 3 KD rule. He looked stunned but he never looked in danger of being counted out. Even if he had lost that roudn 10-6 I think he could have turned it around over 15.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 11 Oct 2007, 08:09

Smith was a big puncher and did a simular one round job to Mike Weaver.... also Witherspoon went into the Smith fight with his mind on his out of the ring problems, and Smith started fast and caught him cold... to say it was a dive is just silly.... Tim was genuinely hurt and knocked down, and he never got another shot at the title due to his fallout with King and Tysons people being afraid of matching them...

chiricahua · Post by **chiricahua** » 14 Oct 2007, 08:34

He could never beat Holyfield. Put him in the ring instead of Spinks and Mike surely loses.

Sure ruiz defeated holyfield and tyson couldn't.Yeah ruiz better than tyson

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 14 Oct 2007, 12:14

chiricahua wrote:
He could never beat Holyfield. Put him in the ring instead of Spinks and Mike surely loses.
Sure ruiz defeated holyfield and tyson couldn't.Yeah ruiz better than tyson

Ruiz beat an old Holifield, or is that a bit hard for you to understand...

chiricahua · Post by **chiricahua** » 14 Oct 2007, 15:41

silkov wrote:
chiricahua wrote:
He could never beat Holyfield. Put him in the ring instead of Spinks and Mike surely loses.
Sure ruiz defeated holyfield and tyson couldn't.Yeah ruiz better than tyson

Ruiz beat an old Holifield, or is that a bit hard for you to understand...

Everytime holyfield loses a fight he is old when he wins well he is great,lol.
Against bowe or moorer was he old too??
Who saw those fights knows very well holyfield fought in his level and he lost period.
When moorer defeated holyfield Teddy atlas was in his corner,can you imagine Teddy atlas in mike tyson's corner??
A bloodbath with holy on the floor.

To the Tyson 'haters' :)

To the Tyson 'haters' :)

Re: To the Tyson 'haters' :)

Re: To the Tyson 'haters' :)

Re: To the Tyson 'haters' :)

Re: To the Tyson 'haters' :)

Mike Tyson

Re: To the Tyson 'haters' :)