Boxing Monthlys All Time Great Super Middles List

[Max Molyneux]

1. Roy Jones
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Nigel Benn
4. Chris Eubank
5. James Toney
6. Steve Collins
7. Sven Ottke
8. Frankie Liles
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Mikkel Kessler

Thats the list.

Roy Jones Jr would beat everyone on that list so he deserves to be number one, remember some people thought Toney would dominate him going into that fight.

I think It's 50/50 with Calzaghe, Roy was too reliant on reflexes and wouldn't of been able to do weird shotgun showboating tatics like with who he fought.

Calzaghe has skills and reflexes to relie on and a better chin.

Roy Is one of the only reasonable fighters you could favour over Calzaghe though.

[pundit]

1. Roy Jones
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Nigel Benn
4. Chris Eubank
5. James Toney
6. Steve Collins
7. Sven Ottke
8. Frankie Liles
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Mikkel Kessler

Thats the list.

Roy Jones Jr would beat everyone on that list so he deserves to be number one, remember some people thought Toney would dominate him going into that fight.

I think It's 50/50 with Calzaghe, Roy was too reliant on reflexes and wouldn't of been able to do weird shotgun showboating tatics like with who he fought.

Calzaghe has skills and reflexes to relie on and a better chin.

Roy Is one of the only reasonable fighters you could favour over Calzaghe though.

I thought you had started to grow up....

[dr_devious]

Why does Roy Jones get the No 1 spot when he was hardly there? Toney and Lucas are the only names on his list worth mentioning too.

According to Farhood he gets the No 1 spot for beating Toney, defending 5 times and winning his belt at 25 then vacating at 28.

Seems he basically gets It on talent.

Because he is a yank like Farhood. Talented or not, he simply wasn't the best S Middle of his own era, never mind all time.

If RJJ wasnt the best SM of his era, who the hell was? He beat the second best SM of his era - Toney - and was unbeaten at the weight. Who would have beaten him - Eubank, Benn, Collins? Get real.
The only criticisms of the list is that Toney and Kessler should be higher.

[dr_devious]

1. Roy Jones
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Nigel Benn
4. Chris Eubank
5. James Toney
6. Steve Collins
7. Sven Ottke
8. Frankie Liles
9. Chong Pal Park
10. Mikkel Kessler

Thats the list.

Roy Jones Jr would beat everyone on that list so he deserves to be number one, remember some people thought Toney would dominate him going into that fight.

I think It's 50/50 with Calzaghe, Roy was too reliant on reflexes and wouldn't of been able to do weird shotgun showboating tatics like with who he fought.

Calzaghe has skills and reflexes to relie on and a better chin.

Roy Is one of the only reasonable fighters you could favour over Calzaghe though.

Jones - Calzaghe 50:50 this is BVLLSH1T. Who has Calzaghe beat that comes anywhere near to Jones' class?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Jones Jr was as close to unbeatable as I've seen a fighter look at Middle and Super Middle.

Calzaghe said in an interview a few years ago that he knew he wouldn't have beaten Jones Junior, and for someone like Calzaghe to say that, is quite something.

Eubank's style may have given Jones Junior problems, as he was so unorthodox and unpredictable, but Calzaghe would have walked onto untold shots against Jones.

[WildWaylon]

Jones Jr was as close to unbeatable as I've seen a fighter look at Middle and Super Middle.

Calzaghe said in an interview a few years ago that he knew he wouldn't have beaten Jones Junior, and for someone like Calzaghe to say that, is quite something.

Eubank's style may have given Jones Junior problems, as he was so unorthodox and unpredictable, but Calzaghe would have walked onto untold shots against Jones.

Yes, agree with that, but I still say the list is a load of bollocks - Where does Kessler come on the list if he was to KO joe?

[STP]

Calzaghe only has (had) a punchers chance against Jones, but since '98 he hasn't had as much of a punch.

Eubank's the one who would cause him problems and Jones admits this. But I think Eubank would have only won the first four rounds against Jones.

[STP]

I don't understand why Collins is so high on the list, didn't he have only something like 8 fights at SM, 4 against a faded Benn and Eubank and then retired instead of fighting Joe C.

Yanks like him because he went to America to improve his skills. It's a symbolic thing IMO

Yanks remember him as 'Irish' Steve Collins and think he was very average.

They remember and respect Benn more.

[STP]

Roy would have had things much tougher in this era I belive, and Liles actually had the style to beat him.

Liles did actually beat him in 1988, knocked him down as well

yeah, Liles did a Tarver before Tarver (in the amas) I believe. Nunn also had the style, size, speed combo, if not the discipline, to beat Jones. Otherwise Jones could look pretty untouchable.

Nunn was definitely the most talented fighter of his era IMO and beats anyone at his best.

[Max Molyneux]

Roy Jones Jr would beat everyone on that list so he deserves to be number one, remember some people thought Toney would dominate him going into that fight.

I think It's 50/50 with Calzaghe, Roy was too reliant on reflexes and wouldn't of been able to do weird shotgun showboating tatics like with who he fought.

Calzaghe has skills and reflexes to relie on and a better chin.

Roy Is one of the only reasonable fighters you could favour over Calzaghe though.

Jones - Calzaghe 50:50 this is BVLLSH1T. Who has Calzaghe beat that comes anywhere near to Jones' class?

Who has Jones beaten near to Calzaghe's class?

[Max Molyneux]

Roy Jones Jr would beat everyone on that list so he deserves to be number one, remember some people thought Toney would dominate him going into that fight.

I think It's 50/50 with Calzaghe, Roy was too reliant on reflexes and wouldn't of been able to do weird shotgun showboating tatics like with who he fought.

Calzaghe has skills and reflexes to relie on and a better chin.

Roy Is one of the only reasonable fighters you could favour over Calzaghe though.

I thought you had started to grow up....

What's wrong with saying Calzaghe Vs Jones would of been 50/50?

Roy Jones cherry picked his opposition as well but hardly gets criticised for It.

[Max Molyneux]

Why does Roy Jones get the No 1 spot when he was hardly there? Toney and Lucas are the only names on his list worth mentioning too.

According to Farhood he gets the No 1 spot for beating Toney, defending 5 times and winning his belt at 25 then vacating at 28.

Seems he basically gets It on talent.

Because he is a yank like Farhood. Talented or not, he simply wasn't the best S Middle of his own era, never mind all time.

If RJJ wasnt the best SM of his era, who the hell was? He beat the second best SM of his era - Toney - and was unbeaten at the weight. Who would have beaten him - Eubank, Benn, Collins? Get real.
The only criticisms of the list is that Toney and Kessler should be higher.

RJJ didn't stay at Super Middle to count as an atg at the weight though. He's still active and at Light Heavy.

Howcome achievements don't count when It's Jones but has to when It's Calzaghe or anyone else?

[jimmy the gent]

Who has Jones beaten near to Calzaghe's class?

Toney!!!

[Max Molyneux]

Toney and Calzaghe are completely different fighters.

Calzaghe's hand speed and work rate would beat Toney as well.

Toney's a fighter who slips and shoulder punches and countering when they are made to miss, totally different to Calzaghe.

[m1kee50]

Toney and Calzaghe are completely different fighters.

Calzaghe's hand speed and work rate would beat Toney as well.

Toney's a fighter who slips and shoulder punches and countering when they are made to miss, totally different to Calzaghe.

not comparing styles, you have to say that they both operate(d) at a very high level

[STP]

I actually think Toney at his best would maybe beat Jones. We all know he wasn't 10% of his self in the Jones fight for obvious reasons. I know Toney was made for Jones stylistically, but I do see Jones having a nightmare trying to land clean on James and one time he jumps in to let off three or four hooks with a hand at once he gets timed and taken by Toney, IMO. There's a reason Jones hasn't given him a rematch.

As for Jones's opponents.... Hopkins was a terror and accurate, and what he did to Malinga and Thornton compared to Eubank shows how hard he punched at 168 (ie VERY). Joe is too square-on and gets taken out by Jones soon enough.

[Autobarn]

I actually think Toney at his best would maybe beat Jones. We all know he wasn't 10% of his self in the Jones fight for obvious reasons. I know Toney was made for Jones stylistically, but I do see Jones having a nightmare trying to land clean on James and one time he jumps in to let off three or four hooks with a hand at once he gets timed and taken by Toney, IMO. There's a reason Jones hasn't given him a rematch.

As for Jones's opponents.... Hopkins was a terror and accurate, and what he did to Malinga and Thornton compared to Eubank shows how hard he punched at 168 (ie VERY). Joe is too square-on and gets taken out by Jones soon enough.

I think Toney got out of shape as an in built excuse, personally. The man was a brilliant counter puncher but always was off his head. Even though he didn't prepare properly he was totally bemused by Jones - look at him in the corner nodding his head to cover up his incomprehension when Miller was giving him instructions. Toney was a counter puncher but it seems couldn't operate vs a fast guy in the middle of the ring.

Calzaghe operated with high speed pressure, so no way would Jones commit. He'd just be negative and try to steal openings. It takes a tall southpaw like Liles or Nunn to beat Jones. More so than a short armed one like Calzaghe. A really simple enough antidote, because Jones circles into a southpaw's left hand and pulls away after punching, making him vulnerable to along counter left.

Hopkins had been criticised for fighting atrocous competition on his way up and was pretty crap until the 2nd Mercado fight, IMO.

Jones is quite a bigger bloke than Calzaghe. Would Jones have been considered such a great supe rmiddle if he'd stayed there? I don't know - he would have been pretty weight drained if he's stayed there for long. Whereas Calzaghe can stil make 168 since 1993 & fight a fast pace.

Also, there's the steroid factor. Warren made a good point that Jones juiced and got caaght for one fight, and that RJJ fought in a lot of places that lacked stringent steroid testing. But I don't buy that they always felt they'd beat Jones, not really.

[DavidPayne]

Joe Calzaghe once said in a reputable interview that he fight anyone "except Roy Jones, he's just unbelievable", or words to that effect.

The belief he would beat Jones came shortly after he got knocked out. It was classless.

[Deram]

I actually think Toney at his best would maybe beat Jones. We all know he wasn't 10% of his self in the Jones fight for obvious reasons. I know Toney was made for Jones stylistically, but I do see Jones having a nightmare trying to land clean on James and one time he jumps in to let off three or four hooks with a hand at once he gets timed and taken by Toney, IMO. There's a reason Jones hasn't given him a rematch.

As for Jones's opponents.... Hopkins was a terror and accurate, and what he did to Malinga and Thornton compared to Eubank shows how hard he punched at 168 (ie VERY). Joe is too square-on and gets taken out by Jones soon enough.

I think Toney got out of shape as an in built excuse, personally. The man was a brilliant counter puncher but always was off his head. Even though he didn't prepare properly he was totally bemused by Jones - look at him in the corner nodding his head to cover up his incomprehension when Miller was giving him instructions. Toney was a counter puncher but it seems couldn't operate vs a fast guy in the middle of the ring.

Calzaghe operated with high speed pressure, so no way would Jones commit. He'd just be negative and try to steal openings. It takes a tall southpaw like Liles or Nunn to beat Jones. More so than a short armed one like Calzaghe. A really simple enough antidote, because Jones circles into a southpaw's left hand and pulls away after punching, making him vulnerable to along counter left.

Hopkins had been criticised for fighting atrocous competition on his way up and was pretty crap until the 2nd Mercado fight, IMO.

Jones is quite a bigger bloke than Calzaghe. Would Jones have been considered such a great supe rmiddle if he'd stayed there? I don't know - he would have been pretty weight drained if he's stayed there for long. Whereas Calzaghe can stil make 168 since 1993 & fight a fast pace.

Also, there's the steroid factor. Warren made a good point that Jones juiced and got caaght for one fight, and that RJJ fought in a lot of places that lacked stringent steroid testing. But I don't buy that they always felt they'd beat Jones, not really.

I agree. Toney is vastly overrated by some. He was a good fighter that had a huge ego. Some people think he was as good as his ego. Imo. Roy would beat him 10 out of 10 times. The weight thing in their fight is just an excuse.

Either it is an excuse or Toney is even dumber than anyone could have imagined. This was the biggest fight of his career. Toney was slight favorite, but everyone knew it was his first real serious fight. I believe toney was 100% for that and therefore the subsequent excuses were just that - excuses. Or he was not 100% - in which case he is extraordinarily dumb, and does not deserve any credits for his own stupidity.

[STP]

I actually think Toney at his best would maybe beat Jones. We all know he wasn't 10% of his self in the Jones fight for obvious reasons. I know Toney was made for Jones stylistically, but I do see Jones having a nightmare trying to land clean on James and one time he jumps in to let off three or four hooks with a hand at once he gets timed and taken by Toney, IMO. There's a reason Jones hasn't given him a rematch.

As for Jones's opponents.... Hopkins was a terror and accurate, and what he did to Malinga and Thornton compared to Eubank shows how hard he punched at 168 (ie VERY). Joe is too square-on and gets taken out by Jones soon enough.

Jones is quite a bigger bloke than Calzaghe. Would Jones have been considered such a great supe rmiddle if he'd stayed there? I don't know - he would have been pretty weight drained if he's stayed there for long. Whereas Calzaghe can stil make 168 since 1993 & fight a fast pace.

Calzaghe is a bigger bloke than Jones. Joe walks around at 195lbs without looking the least bit chubby, and has been talking about light-heavy/cruiser since before he even turned pro!

Jones, for example, says it won't be a problem making 170 for Trinidad in Jan because he's weighing 172 right now. He was never a light-heavy.

He won the 1984 Jr Olympics as a BANTUMWEIGHT, fought at featherweight in 1985 and light-welterweight in 1986. He was a super-welterweight in 1992.

[STP]

I actually think Toney at his best would maybe beat Jones. We all know he wasn't 10% of his self in the Jones fight for obvious reasons. I know Toney was made for Jones stylistically, but I do see Jones having a nightmare trying to land clean on James and one time he jumps in to let off three or four hooks with a hand at once he gets timed and taken by Toney, IMO. There's a reason Jones hasn't given him a rematch.

As for Jones's opponents.... Hopkins was a terror and accurate, and what he did to Malinga and Thornton compared to Eubank shows how hard he punched at 168 (ie VERY). Joe is too square-on and gets taken out by Jones soon enough.

I think Toney got out of shape as an in built excuse, personally. The man was a brilliant counter puncher but always was off his head. Even though he didn't prepare properly he was totally bemused by Jones - look at him in the corner nodding his head to cover up his incomprehension when Miller was giving him instructions. Toney was a counter puncher but it seems couldn't operate vs a fast guy in the middle of the ring.

Calzaghe operated with high speed pressure, so no way would Jones commit. He'd just be negative and try to steal openings. It takes a tall southpaw like Liles or Nunn to beat Jones. More so than a short armed one like Calzaghe. A really simple enough antidote, because Jones circles into a southpaw's left hand and pulls away after punching, making him vulnerable to along counter left.

Hopkins had been criticised for fighting atrocous competition on his way up and was pretty crap until the 2nd Mercado fight, IMO.

Jones is quite a bigger bloke than Calzaghe. Would Jones have been considered such a great supe rmiddle if he'd stayed there? I don't know - he would have been pretty weight drained if he's stayed there for long. Whereas Calzaghe can stil make 168 since 1993 & fight a fast pace.

Also, there's the steroid factor. Warren made a good point that Jones juiced and got caaght for one fight, and that RJJ fought in a lot of places that lacked stringent steroid testing. But I don't buy that they always felt they'd beat Jones, not really.

I agree. Toney is vastly overrated by some. He was a good fighter that had a huge ego. Some people think he was as good as his ego. Imo. Roy would beat him 10 out of 10 times. The weight thing in their fight is just an excuse.

Either it is an excuse or Toney is even dumber than anyone could have imagined. This was the biggest fight of his career. Toney was slight favorite, but everyone knew it was his first real serious fight. I believe toney was 100% for that and therefore the subsequent excuses were just that - excuses. Or he was not 100% - in which case he is extraordinarily dumb, and does not deserve any credits for his own stupidity.

Toney was 222 six weeks out. He looked like a zombie at the weigh-in.

His first 'real serious fight'?? What do you mean by that? Nunn, Johnson, McCallum x 2, Barkley, Littles, these weren't serious fights?

[STP]

Jones said recently that he felt weight-drained for only two fights in his career - Hopkins and first Tarver fight. As for fish-eyes about the steroid testing, it's piss easy to avoid in Britain - 80+% of our athletes are still juiced up to the gills and I'd say around 10+% of Premiership and Championship footballers.

Jones just priced himself out because Calzaghe was a complete no-name in the States before the Lacy fight (due to Warren not letting him go Stateside, for his own wealth) and yet had the graft and wings to cause Jones some problems.

Jones was calling Eubank out pretty much every single week from June 1992 (when he left his dad) to March 1995 and always insisted it be in London. Infact, he wanted Eubank more than he wanted Toney. And said a few years ago Eubank would have beaten Toney "What beat Eubanks was counter-punchers with a high workrate -
Collins, Watson and Calzaghe were perfect for them, Roy would win, Toney would of lost but only because Eubanks outside work far better than James." - said in 3.2 seconds

[STP]

Just found this, see post-fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rD9aIePdjI

[STP]

I actually think Toney at his best would maybe beat Jones. We all know he wasn't 10% of his self in the Jones fight for obvious reasons. I know Toney was made for Jones stylistically, but I do see Jones having a nightmare trying to land clean on James and one time he jumps in to let off three or four hooks with a hand at once he gets timed and taken by Toney, IMO. There's a reason Jones hasn't given him a rematch.

As for Jones's opponents.... Hopkins was a terror and accurate, and what he did to Malinga and Thornton compared to Eubank shows how hard he punched at 168 (ie VERY). Joe is too square-on and gets taken out by Jones soon enough.

Also, there's the steroid factor. Warren made a good point that Jones juiced and got caaght for one fight, and that RJJ fought in a lot of places that lacked stringent steroid testing. But I don't buy that they always felt they'd beat Jones, not really.

[Deram]

I think Toney got out of shape as an in built excuse, personally. The man was a brilliant counter puncher but always was off his head. Even though he didn't prepare properly he was totally bemused by Jones - look at him in the corner nodding his head to cover up his incomprehension when Miller was giving him instructions. Toney was a counter puncher but it seems couldn't operate vs a fast guy in the middle of the ring.

Calzaghe operated with high speed pressure, so no way would Jones commit. He'd just be negative and try to steal openings. It takes a tall southpaw like Liles or Nunn to beat Jones. More so than a short armed one like Calzaghe. A really simple enough antidote, because Jones circles into a southpaw's left hand and pulls away after punching, making him vulnerable to along counter left.

Hopkins had been criticised for fighting atrocous competition on his way up and was pretty crap until the 2nd Mercado fight, IMO.

Jones is quite a bigger bloke than Calzaghe. Would Jones have been considered such a great supe rmiddle if he'd stayed there? I don't know - he would have been pretty weight drained if he's stayed there for long. Whereas Calzaghe can stil make 168 since 1993 & fight a fast pace.

Also, there's the steroid factor. Warren made a good point that Jones juiced and got caaght for one fight, and that RJJ fought in a lot of places that lacked stringent steroid testing. But I don't buy that they always felt they'd beat Jones, not really.

I agree. Toney is vastly overrated by some. He was a good fighter that had a huge ego. Some people think he was as good as his ego. Imo. Roy would beat him 10 out of 10 times. The weight thing in their fight is just an excuse.

Either it is an excuse or Toney is even dumber than anyone could have imagined. This was the biggest fight of his career. Toney was slight favorite, but everyone knew it was his first real serious fight. I believe toney was 100% for that and therefore the subsequent excuses were just that - excuses. Or he was not 100% - in which case he is extraordinarily dumb, and does not deserve any credits for his own stupidity.

Toney was 222 six weeks out. He looked like a zombie at the weigh-in.

His first 'real serious fight'?? What do you mean by that? Nunn, Johnson, McCallum x 2, Barkley, Littles, these weren't serious fights?

Noone (or at least very few) would argue that the fight with Roy Jones Junior was no Toney's biggest at this point in his carreer.

So, you are arguing that Toney was being dumber than everyone already knows? You are claiming that he has the self-control of a cockroach?

Well, I don't know.

Either it is an excuse because:
A) It is not true.
B) It is true, but it is common for Toney to do that and therefore he has no business suddenly using it as an excuse.

Or

C) It is true and it was completely unusual and actually hindered him in the fight - in which case, he DOES have the self-control of a cockroach and it certainly an unworthy champion and rolemodel.