This is a very hypothetical topic, but....
Where do you rate the following four fighters on your all-time heavyweight list?
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe
Personally, I have Lewis at No7, Holyfield No11, Tyson No12, and Bowe somewhere between No16 and No20.
My second question, now this is the hypothetical part...
Where would you rate the fighters if their careers had remained the same, except that the following fights had taken place:
1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
1996 - Lewis v. Tyson
You can choose the results for the fights, and how they would have affected your rankings of the fighters.
For mine:
1991 Holyfield TKO12 Tyson (closer than their eventual meetings, but Holy takes over in the middle and later rounds)
1993 Bowe TKO3 Lewis (awesome short fight, Bowe down in round 2, lots of action)
1996 Lewis KO8 Tyson (closer than their eventual meeting, but the result is the same)
If these fights had happened, I would rate the fighters as such:
Lewis slips to No8 of all time
Holyfield rises to No9
Tyson stays at No12
How would these fights have changed boxing history?
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jezzamundo
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3127
- Joined: 16 Jun 2004, 13:11
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pundit
- Heavyweight
Re: How would these fights have changed boxing history?
I don't think Lewis would have lost to Bowe, but who knows.jezzamundo wrote:This is a very hypothetical topic, but....
Where do you rate the following four fighters on your all-time heavyweight list?
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe
Personally, I have Lewis at No7, Holyfield No11, Tyson No12, and Bowe somewhere between No16 and No20.
My second question, now this is the hypothetical part...
Where would you rate the fighters if their careers had remained the same, except that the following fights had taken place:
1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
1996 - Lewis v. Tyson
You can choose the results for the fights, and how they would have affected your rankings of the fighters.
For mine:
1991 Holyfield TKO12 Tyson (closer than their eventual meetings, but Holy takes over in the middle and later rounds)
1993 Bowe TKO3 Lewis (awesome short fight, Bowe down in round 2, lots of action)
1996 Lewis KO8 Tyson (closer than their eventual meeting, but the result is the same)
If these fights had happened, I would rate the fighters as such:
Lewis slips to No8 of all time
Holyfield rises to No9
Tyson stays at No12
At the time I thought Bowe would beat Lewis. But Riddick ducked him for a reason. He obviously didn't think as much of the matchup as I did.
Holyfield beats Tyson anytime,anyplace.
Tyson would have a punchers chance against Lennox. But odds are he gets beat up.
So to answer your question.
Nothing at all would change with the exception of Lewis maybe ranking a little higher.
The fight you didn't mention would be Holyfield/Lewis earlier. I think that would have changed a lot.
Holyfield beats Tyson anytime,anyplace.
Tyson would have a punchers chance against Lennox. But odds are he gets beat up.
So to answer your question.
Nothing at all would change with the exception of Lewis maybe ranking a little higher.
The fight you didn't mention would be Holyfield/Lewis earlier. I think that would have changed a lot.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Well Holyfield certainly fought everybody. He had several great fights.Ambling Alp wrote:Bowe-Tyson was another important fight that never happened. The 1990's was a funny decade for heavyweights. You had a lot of talent, but not that many great matchups actually took place.
Wasn't Bowe supposedly going to fight Tyson if he had gotten past Golota?
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
I do remember them being friends. I remember in a post-fight interview after he beat Holyfield that Bowe said he was going to go visit Tyson in prison. But still, friends fight all the time in boxing. Holyfield-Tillis comes to mind.
I think I heard it on Legendary Nights, actually, that Tyson and Bowe might have fought each other if Bowe had beaten Golota.
I think I heard it on Legendary Nights, actually, that Tyson and Bowe might have fought each other if Bowe had beaten Golota.
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streetsaresafer
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 02:49
Great question - Warning - this is a long post
To me you picked the 3 biggest missed heavyweights fights of the 90s. Those are the 3 fights that absolutely could have happened but didn't. Where as a fight like Bowe/Tyson and Holyfield/Lewis earlier were not that close to happening.
Holyfield/Tyson in 1991
Damn this fight was signed. Everything was set up. Evander was 29, undefeated, and in the prime of his career. Mike was 25, physically was prime (although he had lost his technique in terms of bobbing and weaving), and was coming off two hard hitting wins over Razor Ruddock.
And then Elijiah Tillery injured Tyson ribs in a sparring session 3 weeks before the fight and boxing fans were cheated of a potentially all time classic fight between a prime Holyfield and a near prime Tyson.
As to how the fight would have gone, I think Holyfield takes it like you said by 12th round TKO. I see Tyson winning 4 out of the first 5 rounds, possibly dominating Holyfield in those rounds. But Holyfield's iron chin and will, and superior boxing ability takes over in the middle and late rounds. I see Holyfield starting to time Tyson better coming in. I see Holyfield's counter punching style as almost a perfect foil for Mike past round 5. Tyson would slow down just enough for a prime Holyfield to take over. And Holyfield eventually gets him in the 12th in a great fight.
Bowe/Lewis 1993
Damn this fight should happened. Rock Newman and Bowe's beef with the WBC, their desire for an easy payday from HBO for a 3 fight deal, first two opponents being pushovers (Dokes and Ferguson), and Newman/Bowe also in effect ducking the danger that Lewis posed by not fighting him, all led to this fight not happening. A damn shame.
I'm sure Bowe thought that at age 25, he had plenty of time to fight Lennox Lewis. I'm sure he'd figure he'd fight Lewis after crushing Dokes and Ferguson, and then having an easier time beating Holyfield in the rematch. I imagine Bowe figured he'd fight Lewis in 94. Too bad that Bowe couldn't stay in shape and ballooned up betwee fights, thus shortening his prime. Bowe was only prime from 91-93. He was past-prime but still formidable in 94-95. And he was badly faded/shot by the time he fought Golota twice in 96. A damn shame.
But yeah assuming the fight goes off I'd pick Bowe to win by 9th round KO for a lot of reasons. First of all, Bowe was further advanced than Lewis in 93. Bowe was prime/peak, Lewis was not. A 93 Bowe would have given most ATG heavies a tough fight. Bowe offensively was pretty great. He had a great left jab when he used it, he had a very good right hand, he threw great uppercuts (see Bowe/Holyfield I), and was arguably the best in fighter ever for a heavyweight his size. He also had heart and a pretty strong chin. And he had the stamina in 93 to be able to go a hard 12 rounds.
Bowe's only weakness in 93 was his defense. He had a good chin, but other than that, you could hit Bowe pretty easily. In fact, many of his opponents had connect percentages of 50 percent or more. Now part of that was his aggressive style, but nontheless this was the one big weakness of a prime Bowe in 93. He could be hit fairly easily.
Now Lewis in 93 was not prime. He was a very good, promising heavweight. But he was still pretty raw. He pawed way too much with his jab. His defense was also much more suspect than it was once Steward got a hold of him (dropped his right hand too much). He also fell too much in love with his right hand (no doubt because of his destruction of Rudduck). A good fight to look at is Lewis's fight with Tony Tucker in 93. Lewis won that fight, but to me he wasn't very impressive. Tucker was a pretty big heavyweight, but no where near as talented as Bowe, and he gave Lewis some problems in that fight, and made Lewis look fairly ordinary at times.
So I see Eddie Futch getting Bowe to focus on blocking Lewis's right hand. They would make it a priorty not to get hit with that punch. And as that point, Bowe's superior offensive and aggressive style would be too much for Lewis in 93.
Bowe had the better jab, better uppercut, better chin, threw the better combinations, was the vastly superior in fighter, and fought a more aggressive, judge pleasing style than a fairly raw Lewis in 93.
So I see what would have been the best big man fight of all time. Two of the most skilled heavyweights of all time going at it. But I see Bowe eventually wearing Lewis down and putting Lewis out in the 9th round.
So Bowe wins by 9th round KO. And the great thing is, is that it would have led to a trilogy in all likelihood.
For the rematch in 95, I'd favor Lewis by a close but clear UD. Now Lewis is prime because he has Manny Steward. Steward made Lewis's jab a much better jab, and he also tightened up Lewis's defense. Plus the extra 10 plus pounds of muscle Lewis put on (particularly in the legs) made Lewis a more balanced and complete fighter. On the other hand, Bowe by 95 was a bit past his prime. He would be pretty competitive with Lewis. But I see a prime Lewis winning this on the cards, or possibly a late round TKO for Lewis.
And then they would have had the rubber match in 96. Here Lewis takes Bowe out by 5th round KO. Bowe is too faded at this point and is probably almost a shot fighter. Lewis is too strong for him and wins in dominant fashion.
So I see Bowe winning in 93, and Lewis winning in 95 and 96 to win the trilogy 2-1.
Lewis/Tyson 96
This fight I go back and forth on, but I have settled on thinking Lewis wins this by 11th round TKO.
Lewis was prime. Tyson was not. Tyson was a past prime, but still formidable heavyweight in 96.
I see Tyson being a lot more competive than he was in their real fight in 2002. For one, Tyson was basically shot by 2002. He came into that fight at 234 pounds!
Tyson in 96 would have come into that fight at a perfect 218 pounds. He was only 30 years old. And he had only the 1 loss to Douglas, and oustide of that fight had not suffered much ring wear. In addition, Tyson's stamina was better in 96 than 02, not great but better.
But still the physical advantages for Lewis are too much here. Lewis is 6-5, a full 6 inches taller than the 5-11 Tyson. Lewis's reach is 84 inches, a full 13 inch advantage on the 71 inch Tyson. Lewis was also a good 25 pounds heavier.
I see Tyson doing pretty well in the first 5 rounds though. In fact, I think he wins 3 out of the first 5 rounds in a pretty competitive fight. But then Lewis takes over. He eventually hurts Mike with an uppercut in the mid rounds. Mike starts to slow down, becomes less aggressive, and becomes even easier to hit. It is at this point (past round 5) that the fight starts to look a lot like their fight in 2002. Lewis starts hitting Tyson almost at will with his jab, and then starts hammering the right hand successfully. Tyson's near granite chin though, plus Lewis's generally cautious style and healthy fear for Tyson's power keeps Tyson in the fight though. But eventually Lewis is too much and the ref stops the fight in the 11th.
So Lewis wins by 11th round TKO.
For the record, I think it would take a prime (88) Tyson to beat a prime Lewis. Tyson would need his peek a boo style defense to win the fight, most notably with his bobbing and weaving. Also Tyson's superior combination punching and stamina over his 96 self would be key as well.
I see a prime Tyson destroying a prime Lewis by 3rd round KO.
96 Tyson certainly would have a live shot to catch Lewis with a right hand (ala Hasim Rahman), and win by KO, but I wouldn't bet on it.
So had those 3 fights happened how would their stocks have been raised?
Well I think all 4 - Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis's stock would be raised. Now we would have had more prime v. prime or prime v. near prime fights to use as barometers. Instead of Bowe/Holyfield I and II being the only prime v. prime clashes. We'd now have a prime/near prime clashes with Holyfield/Tyson in 91 and Bowe/Lewis in 93. And the 96 Lewis would be a prime v. past prime but still formidable clash.
Basically the 90s era heavyweights would be rated right up there close to the Golden Age of the 70s had those 3 fights happened.
I think Holyfield and Lewis would be on EVERY ones all time top 10 HWs list had those fights happened, instead of these two appearing on many but not all. Both Holyfield and Lewis would be locks for top 10 heavyweights.
I also think you might see Bowe sneak into the end of a top 15 HW list with a win over Lennox Lewis.
Tyson would be the hardest to rank. But I think a competive loss to a prime Holyfield in 91 and a competitive loss to a prime Lewis in 96 would nonetheless raise Tyson's stock some. Whether that would put him in most people's top ten, I don't know. But he'd be ranked higher with those quality lossed I'd say.
Here's how the 90s could have gone IF
1. Tyson was acquitted and stayed focused on boxing
2. Holyfield didn't have any health problems - heart/shoulder/hepatitis A
3. Bowe (Rock Newman) was willing to fight Lewis, plus stay in shape
4. Lewis was willing to not be so beholdent to the WBC and be willing to fight anyone
Imagine these fights........plus my predictions.......
1991 - Holy/Tyson - Holyfield 12th round TKO
1992 - Bowe/Holyfield - same as actually happened - Bowe UD
1993 - Bowe/Lewis - Bowe 9th round KO
Bowe/Holy II - same as actually happened - Holy MD
1994 - Tournament announced ala the 74 tournament (Ali/Frazier II and
Foreman/Norton with winners squaring off later that year)
With the undisputed champion Holyfield fighting Lennox Lewis on
one side of the bracket, and Bowe and Tyson fighting on the other
side of the bracket, with the winners squaring off later that year
Results of the 94 HW tournament
Holy/Lewis - Holyfield UD
Bowe/Tyson - Tyson 6th round KO (think Hagler/Hearns for HWs)
Holy/Tyson II - Holyfield UD (Tyson makes adjustments from their
first fight but it is not enough)
1995 - Bowe/Lewis II - Lewis UD (non title fight)
Holyfield as undisputed champ fights Michael Moorer and knocks
him out like he did in their real fight in 97
Lewis/Tyson - Tyson KO 5th round (Tyson is losing competitvely on
the cards but catches Lewis perfectly with a ferocious right hand
and gets the KO)
Holyfield fights Ray Mercer and wins the decision just like he did in
real life in 95
Bowe/Holy III - Holyfield 6th round TKO - this time Holyfield
doesn't have Hepatitis A, and thus when he knocks Bowe down in
the 6th he finishes the job in the corner and Cortez stops the fight
Afterwards, Holyfield retires as undisputed champion with only the
one loss to Bowe on his record. Holyfield is ranked as high as 3rd
all time on some lists with his resume - 2 wins over a near prime
Tyson, 2 wins over a prime Bowe, 1 win over a near prime Lewis,
plus the victories over Dokes, Foreman, etc. And again only the 1
loss to a prime Bowe in 92.
1996 - With Holyfield retired, the 3 major belts are up for grabs again...
Tyson beats Bruno for the WBA crown
Bowe beats Golota by disqualification for the IBF crown
Lewis beats Morrison for the WBC crown
Lewis/Bowe III - Lewis 5th round KO
Lewis has the WBC and IBF crowns now
Bowe fights Golota again to get respect back but again he gets
battered but wins by disqualification
Bowe retires after his 2nd fight with Golota at the end of 96
1997 - Lewis/Tyson II for the undisputed championship
Lewis - 11th round TKO
Lewis is undisputed champ
Tyson fights another year or two then retires
Lewis goes on to fight many of the same opponents he did in real
life, and retires after the Vitali fight in 2003
So after how the 90s should have gone..........
Holyfield is a top 5 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Tyson, 2 wins over prime Bowe, win over a near prime Lewis (thus posting an impressive 5-1 mark aganst the other 3), plus the wins over Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Moorer, and Mercer, and again only the single loss to a prime Bowe in 92
Lewis is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Bowe, 2 wins over a past prime but still formidable Tyson, a competitive loss to Holyfield, plus the wins he racked up like Rudduck, Mercer, Tua, Vitali, etc.
Tyson is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list as well with wins over a prime Bowe in 94, prime Lewis in 95, near prime Spinks in 88, prime Rudduck twice in 91, two competitive losses to Holyfield, one competitive loss to Lewis in 97, and the other wins he racked up.
Bowe is a top 15 HW on nearly everyone's list with having the only win over a prime Holyfield, wins over a near prime Lewis in 93, competitive losses to Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis, and the other wins he racked up.
All in all, the 90s era HWs would have ended up matching the golden era of the 70s HWs had the above happened. Too bad it didn't.
Hope you enjoyed the post and weren't offended by its length.
To me you picked the 3 biggest missed heavyweights fights of the 90s. Those are the 3 fights that absolutely could have happened but didn't. Where as a fight like Bowe/Tyson and Holyfield/Lewis earlier were not that close to happening.
Holyfield/Tyson in 1991
Damn this fight was signed. Everything was set up. Evander was 29, undefeated, and in the prime of his career. Mike was 25, physically was prime (although he had lost his technique in terms of bobbing and weaving), and was coming off two hard hitting wins over Razor Ruddock.
And then Elijiah Tillery injured Tyson ribs in a sparring session 3 weeks before the fight and boxing fans were cheated of a potentially all time classic fight between a prime Holyfield and a near prime Tyson.
As to how the fight would have gone, I think Holyfield takes it like you said by 12th round TKO. I see Tyson winning 4 out of the first 5 rounds, possibly dominating Holyfield in those rounds. But Holyfield's iron chin and will, and superior boxing ability takes over in the middle and late rounds. I see Holyfield starting to time Tyson better coming in. I see Holyfield's counter punching style as almost a perfect foil for Mike past round 5. Tyson would slow down just enough for a prime Holyfield to take over. And Holyfield eventually gets him in the 12th in a great fight.
Bowe/Lewis 1993
Damn this fight should happened. Rock Newman and Bowe's beef with the WBC, their desire for an easy payday from HBO for a 3 fight deal, first two opponents being pushovers (Dokes and Ferguson), and Newman/Bowe also in effect ducking the danger that Lewis posed by not fighting him, all led to this fight not happening. A damn shame.
I'm sure Bowe thought that at age 25, he had plenty of time to fight Lennox Lewis. I'm sure he'd figure he'd fight Lewis after crushing Dokes and Ferguson, and then having an easier time beating Holyfield in the rematch. I imagine Bowe figured he'd fight Lewis in 94. Too bad that Bowe couldn't stay in shape and ballooned up betwee fights, thus shortening his prime. Bowe was only prime from 91-93. He was past-prime but still formidable in 94-95. And he was badly faded/shot by the time he fought Golota twice in 96. A damn shame.
But yeah assuming the fight goes off I'd pick Bowe to win by 9th round KO for a lot of reasons. First of all, Bowe was further advanced than Lewis in 93. Bowe was prime/peak, Lewis was not. A 93 Bowe would have given most ATG heavies a tough fight. Bowe offensively was pretty great. He had a great left jab when he used it, he had a very good right hand, he threw great uppercuts (see Bowe/Holyfield I), and was arguably the best in fighter ever for a heavyweight his size. He also had heart and a pretty strong chin. And he had the stamina in 93 to be able to go a hard 12 rounds.
Bowe's only weakness in 93 was his defense. He had a good chin, but other than that, you could hit Bowe pretty easily. In fact, many of his opponents had connect percentages of 50 percent or more. Now part of that was his aggressive style, but nontheless this was the one big weakness of a prime Bowe in 93. He could be hit fairly easily.
Now Lewis in 93 was not prime. He was a very good, promising heavweight. But he was still pretty raw. He pawed way too much with his jab. His defense was also much more suspect than it was once Steward got a hold of him (dropped his right hand too much). He also fell too much in love with his right hand (no doubt because of his destruction of Rudduck). A good fight to look at is Lewis's fight with Tony Tucker in 93. Lewis won that fight, but to me he wasn't very impressive. Tucker was a pretty big heavyweight, but no where near as talented as Bowe, and he gave Lewis some problems in that fight, and made Lewis look fairly ordinary at times.
So I see Eddie Futch getting Bowe to focus on blocking Lewis's right hand. They would make it a priorty not to get hit with that punch. And as that point, Bowe's superior offensive and aggressive style would be too much for Lewis in 93.
Bowe had the better jab, better uppercut, better chin, threw the better combinations, was the vastly superior in fighter, and fought a more aggressive, judge pleasing style than a fairly raw Lewis in 93.
So I see what would have been the best big man fight of all time. Two of the most skilled heavyweights of all time going at it. But I see Bowe eventually wearing Lewis down and putting Lewis out in the 9th round.
So Bowe wins by 9th round KO. And the great thing is, is that it would have led to a trilogy in all likelihood.
For the rematch in 95, I'd favor Lewis by a close but clear UD. Now Lewis is prime because he has Manny Steward. Steward made Lewis's jab a much better jab, and he also tightened up Lewis's defense. Plus the extra 10 plus pounds of muscle Lewis put on (particularly in the legs) made Lewis a more balanced and complete fighter. On the other hand, Bowe by 95 was a bit past his prime. He would be pretty competitive with Lewis. But I see a prime Lewis winning this on the cards, or possibly a late round TKO for Lewis.
And then they would have had the rubber match in 96. Here Lewis takes Bowe out by 5th round KO. Bowe is too faded at this point and is probably almost a shot fighter. Lewis is too strong for him and wins in dominant fashion.
So I see Bowe winning in 93, and Lewis winning in 95 and 96 to win the trilogy 2-1.
Lewis/Tyson 96
This fight I go back and forth on, but I have settled on thinking Lewis wins this by 11th round TKO.
Lewis was prime. Tyson was not. Tyson was a past prime, but still formidable heavyweight in 96.
I see Tyson being a lot more competive than he was in their real fight in 2002. For one, Tyson was basically shot by 2002. He came into that fight at 234 pounds!
Tyson in 96 would have come into that fight at a perfect 218 pounds. He was only 30 years old. And he had only the 1 loss to Douglas, and oustide of that fight had not suffered much ring wear. In addition, Tyson's stamina was better in 96 than 02, not great but better.
But still the physical advantages for Lewis are too much here. Lewis is 6-5, a full 6 inches taller than the 5-11 Tyson. Lewis's reach is 84 inches, a full 13 inch advantage on the 71 inch Tyson. Lewis was also a good 25 pounds heavier.
I see Tyson doing pretty well in the first 5 rounds though. In fact, I think he wins 3 out of the first 5 rounds in a pretty competitive fight. But then Lewis takes over. He eventually hurts Mike with an uppercut in the mid rounds. Mike starts to slow down, becomes less aggressive, and becomes even easier to hit. It is at this point (past round 5) that the fight starts to look a lot like their fight in 2002. Lewis starts hitting Tyson almost at will with his jab, and then starts hammering the right hand successfully. Tyson's near granite chin though, plus Lewis's generally cautious style and healthy fear for Tyson's power keeps Tyson in the fight though. But eventually Lewis is too much and the ref stops the fight in the 11th.
So Lewis wins by 11th round TKO.
For the record, I think it would take a prime (88) Tyson to beat a prime Lewis. Tyson would need his peek a boo style defense to win the fight, most notably with his bobbing and weaving. Also Tyson's superior combination punching and stamina over his 96 self would be key as well.
I see a prime Tyson destroying a prime Lewis by 3rd round KO.
96 Tyson certainly would have a live shot to catch Lewis with a right hand (ala Hasim Rahman), and win by KO, but I wouldn't bet on it.
So had those 3 fights happened how would their stocks have been raised?
Well I think all 4 - Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis's stock would be raised. Now we would have had more prime v. prime or prime v. near prime fights to use as barometers. Instead of Bowe/Holyfield I and II being the only prime v. prime clashes. We'd now have a prime/near prime clashes with Holyfield/Tyson in 91 and Bowe/Lewis in 93. And the 96 Lewis would be a prime v. past prime but still formidable clash.
Basically the 90s era heavyweights would be rated right up there close to the Golden Age of the 70s had those 3 fights happened.
I think Holyfield and Lewis would be on EVERY ones all time top 10 HWs list had those fights happened, instead of these two appearing on many but not all. Both Holyfield and Lewis would be locks for top 10 heavyweights.
I also think you might see Bowe sneak into the end of a top 15 HW list with a win over Lennox Lewis.
Tyson would be the hardest to rank. But I think a competive loss to a prime Holyfield in 91 and a competitive loss to a prime Lewis in 96 would nonetheless raise Tyson's stock some. Whether that would put him in most people's top ten, I don't know. But he'd be ranked higher with those quality lossed I'd say.
Here's how the 90s could have gone IF
1. Tyson was acquitted and stayed focused on boxing
2. Holyfield didn't have any health problems - heart/shoulder/hepatitis A
3. Bowe (Rock Newman) was willing to fight Lewis, plus stay in shape
4. Lewis was willing to not be so beholdent to the WBC and be willing to fight anyone
Imagine these fights........plus my predictions.......
1991 - Holy/Tyson - Holyfield 12th round TKO
1992 - Bowe/Holyfield - same as actually happened - Bowe UD
1993 - Bowe/Lewis - Bowe 9th round KO
Bowe/Holy II - same as actually happened - Holy MD
1994 - Tournament announced ala the 74 tournament (Ali/Frazier II and
Foreman/Norton with winners squaring off later that year)
With the undisputed champion Holyfield fighting Lennox Lewis on
one side of the bracket, and Bowe and Tyson fighting on the other
side of the bracket, with the winners squaring off later that year
Results of the 94 HW tournament
Holy/Lewis - Holyfield UD
Bowe/Tyson - Tyson 6th round KO (think Hagler/Hearns for HWs)
Holy/Tyson II - Holyfield UD (Tyson makes adjustments from their
first fight but it is not enough)
1995 - Bowe/Lewis II - Lewis UD (non title fight)
Holyfield as undisputed champ fights Michael Moorer and knocks
him out like he did in their real fight in 97
Lewis/Tyson - Tyson KO 5th round (Tyson is losing competitvely on
the cards but catches Lewis perfectly with a ferocious right hand
and gets the KO)
Holyfield fights Ray Mercer and wins the decision just like he did in
real life in 95
Bowe/Holy III - Holyfield 6th round TKO - this time Holyfield
doesn't have Hepatitis A, and thus when he knocks Bowe down in
the 6th he finishes the job in the corner and Cortez stops the fight
Afterwards, Holyfield retires as undisputed champion with only the
one loss to Bowe on his record. Holyfield is ranked as high as 3rd
all time on some lists with his resume - 2 wins over a near prime
Tyson, 2 wins over a prime Bowe, 1 win over a near prime Lewis,
plus the victories over Dokes, Foreman, etc. And again only the 1
loss to a prime Bowe in 92.
1996 - With Holyfield retired, the 3 major belts are up for grabs again...
Tyson beats Bruno for the WBA crown
Bowe beats Golota by disqualification for the IBF crown
Lewis beats Morrison for the WBC crown
Lewis/Bowe III - Lewis 5th round KO
Lewis has the WBC and IBF crowns now
Bowe fights Golota again to get respect back but again he gets
battered but wins by disqualification
Bowe retires after his 2nd fight with Golota at the end of 96
1997 - Lewis/Tyson II for the undisputed championship
Lewis - 11th round TKO
Lewis is undisputed champ
Tyson fights another year or two then retires
Lewis goes on to fight many of the same opponents he did in real
life, and retires after the Vitali fight in 2003
So after how the 90s should have gone..........
Holyfield is a top 5 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Tyson, 2 wins over prime Bowe, win over a near prime Lewis (thus posting an impressive 5-1 mark aganst the other 3), plus the wins over Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Moorer, and Mercer, and again only the single loss to a prime Bowe in 92
Lewis is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Bowe, 2 wins over a past prime but still formidable Tyson, a competitive loss to Holyfield, plus the wins he racked up like Rudduck, Mercer, Tua, Vitali, etc.
Tyson is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list as well with wins over a prime Bowe in 94, prime Lewis in 95, near prime Spinks in 88, prime Rudduck twice in 91, two competitive losses to Holyfield, one competitive loss to Lewis in 97, and the other wins he racked up.
Bowe is a top 15 HW on nearly everyone's list with having the only win over a prime Holyfield, wins over a near prime Lewis in 93, competitive losses to Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis, and the other wins he racked up.
All in all, the 90s era HWs would have ended up matching the golden era of the 70s HWs had the above happened. Too bad it didn't.
Hope you enjoyed the post and weren't offended by its length.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I agree with streetsaresafer that if all 4 fought each other relatively close to their primes that probably all 4 would have been benefited. Even Bowe who beat Holyfield and didn't fight either Lewis or Tyson, would have benefitted. As long as he didn't get completely destroyed by Lewis or Tyson (and he probably wouldn't have been) he would probably would be rated higher today than he generally is. It would have been regarded as a great era in the heavyweight division.
Potentially there were 6 different matchups that could have taken place and only two materialized. If all 6 happened there would have been a lot of exciting fights that we would still be talking about. Instead we have to compare these guys mostly by how they did against the "B" level opponents that they fought.
There is a good chance that all would be considered top 15 fighters and possibly even higher.
The only way it couldn't have benifitted someone was if they lost to all 3 of the other guys and never beat any of the other three. In that case he may be ranked even lower than they are today.
Still, the chances are that the fighters themselves and certainly the fans would have benefitted greatly if these guys would have fought each other more.
Potentially there were 6 different matchups that could have taken place and only two materialized. If all 6 happened there would have been a lot of exciting fights that we would still be talking about. Instead we have to compare these guys mostly by how they did against the "B" level opponents that they fought.
There is a good chance that all would be considered top 15 fighters and possibly even higher.
The only way it couldn't have benifitted someone was if they lost to all 3 of the other guys and never beat any of the other three. In that case he may be ranked even lower than they are today.
Still, the chances are that the fighters themselves and certainly the fans would have benefitted greatly if these guys would have fought each other more.
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Yes, of course. I meant if he had beaten him how he expected; by an early knockout.Decagon wrote:He did beat Golota. Twice.I Feel Fine wrote:I do remember them being friends. I remember in a post-fight interview after he beat Holyfield that Bowe said he was going to go visit Tyson in prison. But still, friends fight all the time in boxing. Holyfield-Tillis comes to mind.
I think I heard it on Legendary Nights, actually, that Tyson and Bowe might have fought each other if Bowe had beaten Golota.
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jezzamundo
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3127
- Joined: 16 Jun 2004, 13:11
Not offended at all. The above is my favourite part of your post. I agree with all the results you chose, with the exception of Tyson-Lewis is '95, where I think Lewis would have won. If the 90s had gone as you described, I agree that it would have been another 70s like golden era for heavyweights (thus making the 00s look even worse than they already are!). My all-time heavyweight list would look as such:Here's how the 90s could have gone IF
1. Tyson was acquitted and stayed focused on boxing
2. Holyfield didn't have any health problems - heart/shoulder/hepatitis A
3. Bowe (Rock Newman) was willing to fight Lewis, plus stay in shape
4. Lewis was willing to not be so beholdent to the WBC and be willing to fight anyone
Imagine these fights........plus my predictions.......
1991 - Holy/Tyson - Holyfield 12th round TKO
1992 - Bowe/Holyfield - same as actually happened - Bowe UD
1993 - Bowe/Lewis - Bowe 9th round KO
Bowe/Holy II - same as actually happened - Holy MD
1994 - Tournament announced ala the 74 tournament (Ali/Frazier II and
Foreman/Norton with winners squaring off later that year)
With the undisputed champion Holyfield fighting Lennox Lewis on
one side of the bracket, and Bowe and Tyson fighting on the other
side of the bracket, with the winners squaring off later that year
Results of the 94 HW tournament
Holy/Lewis - Holyfield UD
Bowe/Tyson - Tyson 6th round KO (think Hagler/Hearns for HWs)
Holy/Tyson II - Holyfield UD (Tyson makes adjustments from their
first fight but it is not enough)
1995 - Bowe/Lewis II - Lewis UD (non title fight)
Holyfield as undisputed champ fights Michael Moorer and knocks
him out like he did in their real fight in 97
Lewis/Tyson - Tyson KO 5th round (Tyson is losing competitvely on
the cards but catches Lewis perfectly with a ferocious right hand
and gets the KO)
Holyfield fights Ray Mercer and wins the decision just like he did in
real life in 95
Bowe/Holy III - Holyfield 6th round TKO - this time Holyfield
doesn't have Hepatitis A, and thus when he knocks Bowe down in
the 6th he finishes the job in the corner and Cortez stops the fight
Afterwards, Holyfield retires as undisputed champion with only the
one loss to Bowe on his record. Holyfield is ranked as high as 3rd
all time on some lists with his resume - 2 wins over a near prime
Tyson, 2 wins over a prime Bowe, 1 win over a near prime Lewis,
plus the victories over Dokes, Foreman, etc. And again only the 1
loss to a prime Bowe in 92.
1996 - With Holyfield retired, the 3 major belts are up for grabs again...
Tyson beats Bruno for the WBA crown
Bowe beats Golota by disqualification for the IBF crown
Lewis beats Morrison for the WBC crown
Lewis/Bowe III - Lewis 5th round KO
Lewis has the WBC and IBF crowns now
Bowe fights Golota again to get respect back but again he gets
battered but wins by disqualification
Bowe retires after his 2nd fight with Golota at the end of 96
1997 - Lewis/Tyson II for the undisputed championship
Lewis - 11th round TKO
Lewis is undisputed champ
Tyson fights another year or two then retires
Lewis goes on to fight many of the same opponents he did in real
life, and retires after the Vitali fight in 2003
So after how the 90s should have gone..........
Holyfield is a top 5 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Tyson, 2 wins over prime Bowe, win over a near prime Lewis (thus posting an impressive 5-1 mark aganst the other 3), plus the wins over Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Moorer, and Mercer, and again only the single loss to a prime Bowe in 92
Lewis is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Bowe, 2 wins over a past prime but still formidable Tyson, a competitive loss to Holyfield, plus the wins he racked up like Rudduck, Mercer, Tua, Vitali, etc.
Tyson is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list as well with wins over a prime Bowe in 94, prime Lewis in 95, near prime Spinks in 88, prime Rudduck twice in 91, two competitive losses to Holyfield, one competitive loss to Lewis in 97, and the other wins he racked up.
Bowe is a top 15 HW on nearly everyone's list with having the only win over a prime Holyfield, wins over a near prime Lewis in 93, competitive losses to Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis, and the other wins he racked up.
All in all, the 90s era HWs would have ended up matching the golden era of the 70s HWs had the above happened. Too bad it didn't.
Hope you enjoyed the post and weren't offended by its length.
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Marciano
8. Frazier
9. Johnson
10. Tyson
Agree completely! - Good post -streetsaresafer wrote:Great question - Warning - this is a long post
To me you picked the 3 biggest missed heavyweights fights of the 90s. Those are the 3 fights that absolutely could have happened but didn't. Where as a fight like Bowe/Tyson and Holyfield/Lewis earlier were not that close to happening.
Holyfield/Tyson in 1991
Damn this fight was signed. Everything was set up. Evander was 29, undefeated, and in the prime of his career. Mike was 25, physically was prime (although he had lost his technique in terms of bobbing and weaving), and was coming off two hard hitting wins over Razor Ruddock.
And then Elijiah Tillery injured Tyson ribs in a sparring session 3 weeks before the fight and boxing fans were cheated of a potentially all time classic fight between a prime Holyfield and a near prime Tyson.
As to how the fight would have gone, I think Holyfield takes it like you said by 12th round TKO. I see Tyson winning 4 out of the first 5 rounds, possibly dominating Holyfield in those rounds. But Holyfield's iron chin and will, and superior boxing ability takes over in the middle and late rounds. I see Holyfield starting to time Tyson better coming in. I see Holyfield's counter punching style as almost a perfect foil for Mike past round 5. Tyson would slow down just enough for a prime Holyfield to take over. And Holyfield eventually gets him in the 12th in a great fight.
Bowe/Lewis 1993
Damn this fight should happened. Rock Newman and Bowe's beef with the WBC, their desire for an easy payday from HBO for a 3 fight deal, first two opponents being pushovers (Dokes and Ferguson), and Newman/Bowe also in effect ducking the danger that Lewis posed by not fighting him, all led to this fight not happening. A damn shame.
I'm sure Bowe thought that at age 25, he had plenty of time to fight Lennox Lewis. I'm sure he'd figure he'd fight Lewis after crushing Dokes and Ferguson, and then having an easier time beating Holyfield in the rematch. I imagine Bowe figured he'd fight Lewis in 94. Too bad that Bowe couldn't stay in shape and ballooned up betwee fights, thus shortening his prime. Bowe was only prime from 91-93. He was past-prime but still formidable in 94-95. And he was badly faded/shot by the time he fought Golota twice in 96. A damn shame.
But yeah assuming the fight goes off I'd pick Bowe to win by 9th round KO for a lot of reasons. First of all, Bowe was further advanced than Lewis in 93. Bowe was prime/peak, Lewis was not. A 93 Bowe would have given most ATG heavies a tough fight. Bowe offensively was pretty great. He had a great left jab when he used it, he had a very good right hand, he threw great uppercuts (see Bowe/Holyfield I), and was arguably the best in fighter ever for a heavyweight his size. He also had heart and a pretty strong chin. And he had the stamina in 93 to be able to go a hard 12 rounds.
Bowe's only weakness in 93 was his defense. He had a good chin, but other than that, you could hit Bowe pretty easily. In fact, many of his opponents had connect percentages of 50 percent or more. Now part of that was his aggressive style, but nontheless this was the one big weakness of a prime Bowe in 93. He could be hit fairly easily.
Now Lewis in 93 was not prime. He was a very good, promising heavweight. But he was still pretty raw. He pawed way too much with his jab. His defense was also much more suspect than it was once Steward got a hold of him (dropped his right hand too much). He also fell too much in love with his right hand (no doubt because of his destruction of Rudduck). A good fight to look at is Lewis's fight with Tony Tucker in 93. Lewis won that fight, but to me he wasn't very impressive. Tucker was a pretty big heavyweight, but no where near as talented as Bowe, and he gave Lewis some problems in that fight, and made Lewis look fairly ordinary at times.
So I see Eddie Futch getting Bowe to focus on blocking Lewis's right hand. They would make it a priorty not to get hit with that punch. And as that point, Bowe's superior offensive and aggressive style would be too much for Lewis in 93.
Bowe had the better jab, better uppercut, better chin, threw the better combinations, was the vastly superior in fighter, and fought a more aggressive, judge pleasing style than a fairly raw Lewis in 93.
So I see what would have been the best big man fight of all time. Two of the most skilled heavyweights of all time going at it. But I see Bowe eventually wearing Lewis down and putting Lewis out in the 9th round.
So Bowe wins by 9th round KO. And the great thing is, is that it would have led to a trilogy in all likelihood.
For the rematch in 95, I'd favor Lewis by a close but clear UD. Now Lewis is prime because he has Manny Steward. Steward made Lewis's jab a much better jab, and he also tightened up Lewis's defense. Plus the extra 10 plus pounds of muscle Lewis put on (particularly in the legs) made Lewis a more balanced and complete fighter. On the other hand, Bowe by 95 was a bit past his prime. He would be pretty competitive with Lewis. But I see a prime Lewis winning this on the cards, or possibly a late round TKO for Lewis.
And then they would have had the rubber match in 96. Here Lewis takes Bowe out by 5th round KO. Bowe is too faded at this point and is probably almost a shot fighter. Lewis is too strong for him and wins in dominant fashion.
So I see Bowe winning in 93, and Lewis winning in 95 and 96 to win the trilogy 2-1.
Lewis/Tyson 96
This fight I go back and forth on, but I have settled on thinking Lewis wins this by 11th round TKO.
Lewis was prime. Tyson was not. Tyson was a past prime, but still formidable heavyweight in 96.
I see Tyson being a lot more competive than he was in their real fight in 2002. For one, Tyson was basically shot by 2002. He came into that fight at 234 pounds!
Tyson in 96 would have come into that fight at a perfect 218 pounds. He was only 30 years old. And he had only the 1 loss to Douglas, and oustide of that fight had not suffered much ring wear. In addition, Tyson's stamina was better in 96 than 02, not great but better.
But still the physical advantages for Lewis are too much here. Lewis is 6-5, a full 6 inches taller than the 5-11 Tyson. Lewis's reach is 84 inches, a full 13 inch advantage on the 71 inch Tyson. Lewis was also a good 25 pounds heavier.
I see Tyson doing pretty well in the first 5 rounds though. In fact, I think he wins 3 out of the first 5 rounds in a pretty competitive fight. But then Lewis takes over. He eventually hurts Mike with an uppercut in the mid rounds. Mike starts to slow down, becomes less aggressive, and becomes even easier to hit. It is at this point (past round 5) that the fight starts to look a lot like their fight in 2002. Lewis starts hitting Tyson almost at will with his jab, and then starts hammering the right hand successfully. Tyson's near granite chin though, plus Lewis's generally cautious style and healthy fear for Tyson's power keeps Tyson in the fight though. But eventually Lewis is too much and the ref stops the fight in the 11th.
So Lewis wins by 11th round TKO.
For the record, I think it would take a prime (88) Tyson to beat a prime Lewis. Tyson would need his peek a boo style defense to win the fight, most notably with his bobbing and weaving. Also Tyson's superior combination punching and stamina over his 96 self would be key as well.
I see a prime Tyson destroying a prime Lewis by 3rd round KO.
96 Tyson certainly would have a live shot to catch Lewis with a right hand (ala Hasim Rahman), and win by KO, but I wouldn't bet on it.
So had those 3 fights happened how would their stocks have been raised?
Well I think all 4 - Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis's stock would be raised. Now we would have had more prime v. prime or prime v. near prime fights to use as barometers. Instead of Bowe/Holyfield I and II being the only prime v. prime clashes. We'd now have a prime/near prime clashes with Holyfield/Tyson in 91 and Bowe/Lewis in 93. And the 96 Lewis would be a prime v. past prime but still formidable clash.
Basically the 90s era heavyweights would be rated right up there close to the Golden Age of the 70s had those 3 fights happened.
I think Holyfield and Lewis would be on EVERY ones all time top 10 HWs list had those fights happened, instead of these two appearing on many but not all. Both Holyfield and Lewis would be locks for top 10 heavyweights.
I also think you might see Bowe sneak into the end of a top 15 HW list with a win over Lennox Lewis.
Tyson would be the hardest to rank. But I think a competive loss to a prime Holyfield in 91 and a competitive loss to a prime Lewis in 96 would nonetheless raise Tyson's stock some. Whether that would put him in most people's top ten, I don't know. But he'd be ranked higher with those quality lossed I'd say.
Here's how the 90s could have gone IF
1. Tyson was acquitted and stayed focused on boxing
2. Holyfield didn't have any health problems - heart/shoulder/hepatitis A
3. Bowe (Rock Newman) was willing to fight Lewis, plus stay in shape
4. Lewis was willing to not be so beholdent to the WBC and be willing to fight anyone
Imagine these fights........plus my predictions.......
1991 - Holy/Tyson - Holyfield 12th round TKO
1992 - Bowe/Holyfield - same as actually happened - Bowe UD
1993 - Bowe/Lewis - Bowe 9th round KO
Bowe/Holy II - same as actually happened - Holy MD
1994 - Tournament announced ala the 74 tournament (Ali/Frazier II and
Foreman/Norton with winners squaring off later that year)
With the undisputed champion Holyfield fighting Lennox Lewis on
one side of the bracket, and Bowe and Tyson fighting on the other
side of the bracket, with the winners squaring off later that year
Results of the 94 HW tournament
Holy/Lewis - Holyfield UD
Bowe/Tyson - Tyson 6th round KO (think Hagler/Hearns for HWs)
Holy/Tyson II - Holyfield UD (Tyson makes adjustments from their
first fight but it is not enough)
1995 - Bowe/Lewis II - Lewis UD (non title fight)
Holyfield as undisputed champ fights Michael Moorer and knocks
him out like he did in their real fight in 97
Lewis/Tyson - Tyson KO 5th round (Tyson is losing competitvely on
the cards but catches Lewis perfectly with a ferocious right hand
and gets the KO)
Holyfield fights Ray Mercer and wins the decision just like he did in
real life in 95
Bowe/Holy III - Holyfield 6th round TKO - this time Holyfield
doesn't have Hepatitis A, and thus when he knocks Bowe down in
the 6th he finishes the job in the corner and Cortez stops the fight
Afterwards, Holyfield retires as undisputed champion with only the
one loss to Bowe on his record. Holyfield is ranked as high as 3rd
all time on some lists with his resume - 2 wins over a near prime
Tyson, 2 wins over a prime Bowe, 1 win over a near prime Lewis,
plus the victories over Dokes, Foreman, etc. And again only the 1
loss to a prime Bowe in 92.
1996 - With Holyfield retired, the 3 major belts are up for grabs again...
Tyson beats Bruno for the WBA crown
Bowe beats Golota by disqualification for the IBF crown
Lewis beats Morrison for the WBC crown
Lewis/Bowe III - Lewis 5th round KO
Lewis has the WBC and IBF crowns now
Bowe fights Golota again to get respect back but again he gets
battered but wins by disqualification
Bowe retires after his 2nd fight with Golota at the end of 96
1997 - Lewis/Tyson II for the undisputed championship
Lewis - 11th round TKO
Lewis is undisputed champ
Tyson fights another year or two then retires
Lewis goes on to fight many of the same opponents he did in real
life, and retires after the Vitali fight in 2003
So after how the 90s should have gone..........
Holyfield is a top 5 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Tyson, 2 wins over prime Bowe, win over a near prime Lewis (thus posting an impressive 5-1 mark aganst the other 3), plus the wins over Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Moorer, and Mercer, and again only the single loss to a prime Bowe in 92
Lewis is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list with 2 wins over a near prime Bowe, 2 wins over a past prime but still formidable Tyson, a competitive loss to Holyfield, plus the wins he racked up like Rudduck, Mercer, Tua, Vitali, etc.
Tyson is a top 10 HW on nearly everyone's list as well with wins over a prime Bowe in 94, prime Lewis in 95, near prime Spinks in 88, prime Rudduck twice in 91, two competitive losses to Holyfield, one competitive loss to Lewis in 97, and the other wins he racked up.
Bowe is a top 15 HW on nearly everyone's list with having the only win over a prime Holyfield, wins over a near prime Lewis in 93, competitive losses to Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis, and the other wins he racked up.
All in all, the 90s era HWs would have ended up matching the golden era of the 70s HWs had the above happened. Too bad it didn't.
Hope you enjoyed the post and weren't offended by its length.
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streetsaresafer
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 11
- Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 02:49
Yeah the Tyson win over Lewis in 95 is probably the least likely of the outcomes I chose for all those hypo fights that should have happened. But I was partially basing it on the fact that if I assumed 2 fights took place between Lewis and Tyson between 95-97 (which I did), that Tyson would catch Lewis with a big shot in one of the two contests and put him out. But certainly could see Lewis winning that one in 95.
Overall, the 90s were a very good era, but I can't help but being grossly disappointed when I think about how much better it could have been.
Really it has to be the most frustrating era in the history of the division in terms of the fights that didn't happen (Bowe/Lewis, Bowe/Tyson), fights that happened too late (Lewis/Tyson), and fights that I appreciated getting, but still wished they were earlier (Holy/Tyson and Holy/Lewis).
I mean if you think about the 70s for a second - nearly every fight that should have happened did. We got 3 Ali/Frazier fights, the first of which was an almost ideal prime (Frazier) v. near prime (Ali) clash.
We got 2 Foreman/Frazier fights and 1 Foreman/Ali fight. Foreman was prime and Frazier and Ali were past prime but still formidable. The key though is that there is no way those fights could have happened sooner to match up better with Ali/Frazier's prime. Foreman simply hadn't come on the scene big enough yet to even have a chance of getting in the ring with Ali or Frazier from 71 or before, so no hope for getting a more prime Ali or Frazier. Point being I guess is that we have nothing to complain about with Foreman against those 2 in terms of the timing of the fights.
We got 3 Ali/Norton fights, and just like Foreman, no way could you match Norton up with Ali any earlier than they did for that first fight. So again no complaints as to the timing. We also got Foreman and Norton as well.
The only fight we missed was Frazier and Norton. In 77 or 78 a Holmes/Foreman clash was the other big event that was missed. So 2 fights missed out of getting nearly every other fight you could want as a boxing fan. I mean we even got Ali/Shavers, Holmes/Shavers, Holmes/Norton. Not much to complain about.
So the 70s were almost perfect in terms of the fights we got between the top guys, and the timing of them. Quite frankly the only fight from 75 and earlier that I really would have wanted to see is Ali/Frazier in 68 - but of course that didn't happen due to Ali's suspension.
Then look at the 80s era HW fights. Not a great era. But still we got Holmes/Cooney and Holmes/Witherspoon. I know Holmes missed some guys like Michael Dokes, Greg Page, and Pinklon Thomas. But missing those fights is a far cry from not getting Bowe/Lewis or Bowe/Tyson. Huge difference.
And then for Tyson's reign - he fought nearly everyone. In fact, I would say the 1 fight I wish would have happened during Tyson's run was a fight against Tim Witherspoon. Don't know when it would have been practical (maybe 86 on his way to the title?), but a Tyson/Witherspoon clash is the 1 fight to me that was missed in the 80s. And I still wouldn't put that fight anywhere near as important as a Bowe/Lewis or Bowe/Tyson clash.
Then you have the 90s - Holyfield/Tyson happens 5-7 years too late. Holyfield was ready for Tyson after beating Dokes in March of 1989. He was the clear no. 1 contender after that fight. He even offered a winner take all prize money just cause he wanted Tyson so bad. Then they finally sign in 90, all Tyson has to do is beat Douglas. Ugh. Then in 91 the fight is signed - and no opponents are in the way to screw it up. And then Elijiah Tillery ruins boxing fans by injuring Tyson's ribs in a sparring session 3 weeks before the fight. And alas a potentially epic Holyfield/Tyson clash in 89-91 didn't materialize. Instead we got their fight in 96 between two past prime, but still formidable HWs. A good and memorable fight of course, but still one can't help but imagine how much better both would have been a few years earlier.
Obviously Bowe/Lewis was supposed to happen. Should have happened in 93 but Bowe/Newman ducked Lewis and took the easy money and easy victories. And then in early 95 it could have happened again but Lewis lost to McCall, thus screwing boxing fans again. Amazing that these 2 never fought against each other in the pros. Easily the biggest missed HW fight maybe ever (outside of a Holmes/Foreman clash in 78 perhaps).
We got Lewis/Tyson in 2002. 2002 - ridiculous. Great
we got to see a badly faded/shot 234 pound Tyson fight a Lewis probably at the tail end of his prime - great for Lewis - bad for boxing. If we get this fight in 96, like we should have - things would be much clearer as to the historical standing of these two. A prime Lewis v. a past prime but still formidable Tyson - would have been interesting in 96. Anyway, one thing I can say about Lewis/Tyson is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to match up a prime Tyson against a prime Lewis since Tyson's prime ended with Spinks in 88, and Lewis wasn't prime till Morrison in 95. But still a 96 clash I would have taken.
Holyfield/Lewis we got in 99, 2 of them. Holyfield was past prime but still formidable, Lewis was prime. Lewis, as we know dominated Holyfield in the first fight with his jab and was robbed of the decision. The 2nd fight was damn close though, I have scored it for both men, though the last time I watched it, I watched several rounds multiple times, and I ended up thinking that Holyfield JUST edged out Lewis for the decision. But anyway, this fight certainly could and should have happened somewhere between 93-96. I think Holyfield would have won a UD over Lewis anytime before 96 (he would have a much better workrate than his 99', 36/37 yr old self, and would be the effective aggressor enough to get the decision over Lewis). Anyway, the 2 fights we did get were nice to have, but still should have happened earlier.
Lastly is Bowe/Tyson. Much like Frazier/Norton, these 2 were reputed friends. Still they should have fought. I know Tyson was in prison. But they could have fought in late 95. Amazing that we never got to see this fight as I think it would have been a HW version of Hagler/Hearns.
Notice a theme running throughout though - Tyson being in prison for 3 years really prevented the HW division from being as great as it could have been. With Tyson in jail, not many in the mainstream press thought the Bowe's and Holyfield's of the world were that great. And then Foreman beating Moorer in 94 really added to the PR perception at the time that the HW division wasn't that strong. A bogus perception I believe.
So you see if Tyson had not gone to prison - he legimitizes the whole division, especially if a Holyfield or Bowe beats him, they get instant credibility.
Actually though, if just the Holy/Tyson clash goes off in 91, things would have been much better. Let's say Holyfield wins by late round TKO in a great fight (think 96 fight but less clinches, a better Tyson, and overall more action packed fight). Now let's say Tyson still goes to jail. Well the torch has been passed even with Tyson in prison. Now Holyfield is undisputed champ - he has beaten Tyson. Thus when Bowe beats Holy in 92 - Bowe looks even better, and the when Holyfield returns the favor in 93, and so on and so forth.
So you see how JUST the Holy/Tyson fight in 91 could have really improved the PR of the heavies in the 90s. And more importantly we as boxing fans would have gotten a prime (Holy) v. near prime (Tyson) clash that would have answered nearly every question out there about who was better. The 96 fight leaves too many excuses out there (legitimate or not) - Tyson was in prison for 3 years, Tyson was 8 years removed from best fight (Spinks), Tyson didn't take Holyfield seriously - thought he was shot, etc. A 91 clash removes almost all excuses no matter who wins. Tyson would be in top shape for a 91 Holyfield because Holyfield was the undefeated champion and Tyson knew from the 84 Olympics that Holy was tough.
But yeah let's just say the following 4 fights happen (since they were most likely to happen).
Holyfield/Tyson 1991
Bowe/Lewis in 1993
Bowe/Lewis rematch in 1995
Lewis/Tyson in 1996
Those above fights absolutely could and should have happened. Just imagine if they did, plus the fights we did get - 3 Bowe/Holyfield clashes.
If those fights had happened, the 90s would have been right there with the 70s. We as boxing fans would have gotten some potentially classic fights, and a lot more questions would have been answered about these 4 guys.
Thanks for the responses; good discussion.
Overall, the 90s were a very good era, but I can't help but being grossly disappointed when I think about how much better it could have been.
Really it has to be the most frustrating era in the history of the division in terms of the fights that didn't happen (Bowe/Lewis, Bowe/Tyson), fights that happened too late (Lewis/Tyson), and fights that I appreciated getting, but still wished they were earlier (Holy/Tyson and Holy/Lewis).
I mean if you think about the 70s for a second - nearly every fight that should have happened did. We got 3 Ali/Frazier fights, the first of which was an almost ideal prime (Frazier) v. near prime (Ali) clash.
We got 2 Foreman/Frazier fights and 1 Foreman/Ali fight. Foreman was prime and Frazier and Ali were past prime but still formidable. The key though is that there is no way those fights could have happened sooner to match up better with Ali/Frazier's prime. Foreman simply hadn't come on the scene big enough yet to even have a chance of getting in the ring with Ali or Frazier from 71 or before, so no hope for getting a more prime Ali or Frazier. Point being I guess is that we have nothing to complain about with Foreman against those 2 in terms of the timing of the fights.
We got 3 Ali/Norton fights, and just like Foreman, no way could you match Norton up with Ali any earlier than they did for that first fight. So again no complaints as to the timing. We also got Foreman and Norton as well.
The only fight we missed was Frazier and Norton. In 77 or 78 a Holmes/Foreman clash was the other big event that was missed. So 2 fights missed out of getting nearly every other fight you could want as a boxing fan. I mean we even got Ali/Shavers, Holmes/Shavers, Holmes/Norton. Not much to complain about.
So the 70s were almost perfect in terms of the fights we got between the top guys, and the timing of them. Quite frankly the only fight from 75 and earlier that I really would have wanted to see is Ali/Frazier in 68 - but of course that didn't happen due to Ali's suspension.
Then look at the 80s era HW fights. Not a great era. But still we got Holmes/Cooney and Holmes/Witherspoon. I know Holmes missed some guys like Michael Dokes, Greg Page, and Pinklon Thomas. But missing those fights is a far cry from not getting Bowe/Lewis or Bowe/Tyson. Huge difference.
And then for Tyson's reign - he fought nearly everyone. In fact, I would say the 1 fight I wish would have happened during Tyson's run was a fight against Tim Witherspoon. Don't know when it would have been practical (maybe 86 on his way to the title?), but a Tyson/Witherspoon clash is the 1 fight to me that was missed in the 80s. And I still wouldn't put that fight anywhere near as important as a Bowe/Lewis or Bowe/Tyson clash.
Then you have the 90s - Holyfield/Tyson happens 5-7 years too late. Holyfield was ready for Tyson after beating Dokes in March of 1989. He was the clear no. 1 contender after that fight. He even offered a winner take all prize money just cause he wanted Tyson so bad. Then they finally sign in 90, all Tyson has to do is beat Douglas. Ugh. Then in 91 the fight is signed - and no opponents are in the way to screw it up. And then Elijiah Tillery ruins boxing fans by injuring Tyson's ribs in a sparring session 3 weeks before the fight. And alas a potentially epic Holyfield/Tyson clash in 89-91 didn't materialize. Instead we got their fight in 96 between two past prime, but still formidable HWs. A good and memorable fight of course, but still one can't help but imagine how much better both would have been a few years earlier.
Obviously Bowe/Lewis was supposed to happen. Should have happened in 93 but Bowe/Newman ducked Lewis and took the easy money and easy victories. And then in early 95 it could have happened again but Lewis lost to McCall, thus screwing boxing fans again. Amazing that these 2 never fought against each other in the pros. Easily the biggest missed HW fight maybe ever (outside of a Holmes/Foreman clash in 78 perhaps).
We got Lewis/Tyson in 2002. 2002 - ridiculous. Great
we got to see a badly faded/shot 234 pound Tyson fight a Lewis probably at the tail end of his prime - great for Lewis - bad for boxing. If we get this fight in 96, like we should have - things would be much clearer as to the historical standing of these two. A prime Lewis v. a past prime but still formidable Tyson - would have been interesting in 96. Anyway, one thing I can say about Lewis/Tyson is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to match up a prime Tyson against a prime Lewis since Tyson's prime ended with Spinks in 88, and Lewis wasn't prime till Morrison in 95. But still a 96 clash I would have taken.Holyfield/Lewis we got in 99, 2 of them. Holyfield was past prime but still formidable, Lewis was prime. Lewis, as we know dominated Holyfield in the first fight with his jab and was robbed of the decision. The 2nd fight was damn close though, I have scored it for both men, though the last time I watched it, I watched several rounds multiple times, and I ended up thinking that Holyfield JUST edged out Lewis for the decision. But anyway, this fight certainly could and should have happened somewhere between 93-96. I think Holyfield would have won a UD over Lewis anytime before 96 (he would have a much better workrate than his 99', 36/37 yr old self, and would be the effective aggressor enough to get the decision over Lewis). Anyway, the 2 fights we did get were nice to have, but still should have happened earlier.
Lastly is Bowe/Tyson. Much like Frazier/Norton, these 2 were reputed friends. Still they should have fought. I know Tyson was in prison. But they could have fought in late 95. Amazing that we never got to see this fight as I think it would have been a HW version of Hagler/Hearns.
Notice a theme running throughout though - Tyson being in prison for 3 years really prevented the HW division from being as great as it could have been. With Tyson in jail, not many in the mainstream press thought the Bowe's and Holyfield's of the world were that great. And then Foreman beating Moorer in 94 really added to the PR perception at the time that the HW division wasn't that strong. A bogus perception I believe.
So you see if Tyson had not gone to prison - he legimitizes the whole division, especially if a Holyfield or Bowe beats him, they get instant credibility.
Actually though, if just the Holy/Tyson clash goes off in 91, things would have been much better. Let's say Holyfield wins by late round TKO in a great fight (think 96 fight but less clinches, a better Tyson, and overall more action packed fight). Now let's say Tyson still goes to jail. Well the torch has been passed even with Tyson in prison. Now Holyfield is undisputed champ - he has beaten Tyson. Thus when Bowe beats Holy in 92 - Bowe looks even better, and the when Holyfield returns the favor in 93, and so on and so forth.
So you see how JUST the Holy/Tyson fight in 91 could have really improved the PR of the heavies in the 90s. And more importantly we as boxing fans would have gotten a prime (Holy) v. near prime (Tyson) clash that would have answered nearly every question out there about who was better. The 96 fight leaves too many excuses out there (legitimate or not) - Tyson was in prison for 3 years, Tyson was 8 years removed from best fight (Spinks), Tyson didn't take Holyfield seriously - thought he was shot, etc. A 91 clash removes almost all excuses no matter who wins. Tyson would be in top shape for a 91 Holyfield because Holyfield was the undefeated champion and Tyson knew from the 84 Olympics that Holy was tough.
But yeah let's just say the following 4 fights happen (since they were most likely to happen).
Holyfield/Tyson 1991
Bowe/Lewis in 1993
Bowe/Lewis rematch in 1995
Lewis/Tyson in 1996
Those above fights absolutely could and should have happened. Just imagine if they did, plus the fights we did get - 3 Bowe/Holyfield clashes.
If those fights had happened, the 90s would have been right there with the 70s. We as boxing fans would have gotten some potentially classic fights, and a lot more questions would have been answered about these 4 guys.
Thanks for the responses; good discussion.
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pound per pound
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Re: How would these fights have changed boxing history?
I have Lewis ranked about 5th, Bowe ranked about 11th, Holyfield ranked about 12th, Tyson about 13th.jezzamundo : This is a very hypothetical topic, but....
Where do you rate the following four fighters on your all-time heavyweight list?
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe
Personally, I have Lewis at No7, Holyfield No11, Tyson No12, and Bowe somewhere between No16 and No20.
My second question, now this is the hypothetical part...
Where would you rate the fighters if their careers had remained the same, except that the following fights had taken place:
1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson
1993 - Bowe v. Lewis
1996 - Lewis v. Tyson
You can choose the results for the fights, and how they would have affected your rankings of the fighters.
Lewis beat all three men. He crushed Bowe in the gold medal Olympic match, should have two wins over Holyfield, and knocked Tyson out.
While the Bowe match was in the Olympics, Lewis' right hand easily got to and hurt Bowe. If could be argued that Tyson and Holyfield were past their best, while Lewis was still in his near prime when he beat Holyfield and Tyson.
These would be my picks:
1991 - Holyfield v. Tyson .....Holyfield via late round TKO.
1993 - Bowe v. Lewis ......Lewis via early round TKO
1996 - Lewis v. Tyson...Lewis via mid round TKO