Sugar Ray Robinson: 5 guys that would have beaten him

[Jaclem]

..okay elmer..thanks for the answer. now....the cut that robinson got in the title fight was nowhere near being bad enough for the fight having to be stopped. it just made srr stand off and box more and keep gavilan at a distance. robinson did say,as i wrote here, that he went for the kayo a couple of times, hit gavilan as hard as he had ever hit anybody and the keed didn't even blink. (in his long career, gavilan was knocked down just twice...once each against ike williams and carmine basilio.)

As for the crowd booing.....my recollection, and that's all i have to go on here, is they were boong robinson for showboating more than their thinking he had lost. but..again..that's just how i recall it. i saw somethng similar happen...this one was on tv...when he fought an over-the-weight match against bobby dykes. in the last two rounds sugar ray stood on one fought, jabbed and connected, and kept circling dykes and doing this. hard to decribe in print..but it looked as if her was trying to make a fool of dykes...well, i guess he was..and the crowd booed him, but didn't think he was losing the fight. it was just the show-off tactics.

now....if you want an example where ronbinson, in the opinion of some..got protected, was in his rematch against randy turpin. robinson was cut ....deeply and badly...and it looked as if he might lose on a tko if the fight went another round, or even between rounds. so he opened up desperatley on turpin..who was holding his own, at least..up to this point. robinson went all out for the kayo, knocked turpin down, and when turpin got up robinson opened a barrage while turpin was against the ropes, and the referee stepped in and stopped it...ko (i don't use tko0 for robinson. the british contingent went wild, saying it had been stopped too soon and turpin was swaying and rolling with some punches; avoiding others. there had been a very recent death in the ring prior to this and some thought that affected the referee.

the tape of this fight isn't hard to find...so maybe you can se it and judge for yourself.

as for the keed versus the sugar man....you and i will stay with our own own opinions and hey...that's okay. i am an admirer of gavilan myself and i think he was a great fighter, but he was in there against the greatest...so....who knows?

one more point .....robinson was not protected much by the press at that time. his release from the army was in dubious circumstances and had come out to the public....and he was known for leaving promoters stuck with financial losses by canceling fights at the last moment.

he was admired for his talent, but not for his persona....and he fought charley fusari and gave his purse to charity as a step toward getting a more favorable press.

[elmersalsa]

..okay elmer..thanks for the answer. now....the cut that robinson got in the title fight was nowhere near being bad enough for the fight having to be stopped. it just made srr stand off and box more and keep gavilan at a distance. robinson did say,as i wrote here, that he went for the kayo a couple of times, hit gavilan as hard as he had ever hit anybody and the keed didn't even blink. (in his long career, gavilan was knocked down just twice...once each against ike williams and carmine basilio.)

As for the crowd booing.....my recollection, and that's all i have to go on here, is they were boong robinson for showboating more than their thinking he had lost. but..again..that's just how i recall it. i saw somethng similar happen...this one was on tv...when he fought an over-the-weight match against bobby dykes. in the last two rounds sugar ray stood on one fought, jabbed and connected, and kept circling dykes and doing this. hard to decribe in print..but it looked as if her was trying to make a fool of dykes...well, i guess he was..and the crowd booed him, but didn't think he was losing the fight. it was just the show-off tactics.

now....if you want an example where ronbinson, in the opinion of some..got protected, was in his rematch against randy turpin. robinson was cut ....deeply and badly...and it looked as if he might lose on a tko if the fight went another round, or even between rounds. so he opened up desperatley on turpin..who was holding his own, at least..up to this point. robinson went all out for the kayo, knocked turpin down, and when turpin got up robinson opened a barrage while turpin was against the ropes, and the referee stepped in and stopped it...ko (i don't use tko0 for robinson. the british contingent went wild, saying it had been stopped too soon and turpin was swaying and rolling with some punches; avoiding others. there had been a very recent death in the ring prior to this and some thought that affected the referee.

the tape of this fight isn't hard to find...so maybe you can se it and judge for yourself.

as for the keed versus the sugar man....you and i will stay with our own own opinions and hey...that's okay. i am an admirer of gavilan myself and i think he was a great fighter, but he was in there against the greatest...so....who knows?

one more point .....robinson was not protected much by the press at that time. his release from the army was in dubious circumstances and had come out to the public....and he was known for leaving promoters stuck with financial losses by canceling fights at the last moment.

he was admired for his talent, but not for his persona....and he fought charley fusari and gave his purse to charity as a step toward getting a more favorable press.

All I have to say is: "Great post jaclem"...Not every one views may be the same. I do not knock on Sugar Ray Robinson's achievements. He was a great fighter, probably the best that ever was in a way, but my vote as the greatest right now is Henry Armstrong. I just hope that I could have more people like you in this forum and comment about those fights. I will take your word in many of the things that you have said.

But the problem here also jaclem is that Sugar Ray Robinson for many, could never be beaten, he could never lose a fight series, and if they could have their way, Sugar Ray could never do nothing wrong. He outboxes everybody. He was more perfect than any fighter. But when I see his videos, he does not look as awesome as some fighters that I have seen like Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran or Marvin Hagler. I even believe that Kid Gavilan was a better technical fighter than the original Sugar Man. That is my point of view. May not be the same as others.

I see Robinson some defects. Robinson to me is not the perfect fighter. He may have an unbeliavable work rate and energy, great chin, punching power, fast, good footwork and some boxing skills, but while throwing his punches, sometimes he threw them too wide and wild. I believe a fighter like Leonard or Duran could beat him at welterweight. In fact, I believe that Kid Gavilan would have give more problems to Duran, Leonard or Hagler than Robinson.

[Jaclem]

..okay.....i'm willing to settle for a draw....fair enough?

[Ezzard]

elmer- You yourself said on another post that you had Duran winning by 3 points. That is quite a bit different than Duran "winning almost every damn round".

Agreed but Duran is obviously in control of the fight. He almost drops Leonard in the 2nd, wins the next few rounds and then uses his lead to pace himself to win the fight.

Its fairly close on the cards but it's a fairly convincing win at the same time.

[elmersalsa]

..okay.....i'm willing to settle for a draw....fair enough?

Right on!!!

[Rng Anncr]

Mayweather at 147 is better than Duran or Leonard.

Robinson was so long ago...

I just think today's top fighters are better.

I like the question...but can't see Mayweather losing.

Ever.

[granberry]

now....if you want an example where ronbinson, in the opinion of some..got protected, was in his rematch against randy turpin. robinson was cut ....deeply and badly...and it looked as if he might lose on a tko if the fight went another round, or even between rounds. so he opened up desperatley on turpin..who was holding his own, at least..up to this point. robinson went all out for the kayo, knocked turpin down, and when turpin got up robinson opened a barrage while turpin was against the ropes, and the referee stepped in and stopped it...ko (i don't use tko0 for robinson. the british contingent went wild, saying it had been stopped too soon and turpin was swaying and rolling with some punches; avoiding others. there had been a very recent death in the ring prior to this and some thought that affected the referee.

The referee was Ruby Goldstein.

Robinson was not landing as Turpin was against the ropes after the knockdown.

Robinson was so frantic as he tried to finish Turpin that he even tried grabbing Turpin behind the head with his left hand while he tried to hit him with his right.

Robinson landed maybe one out of ten punches there.

Robinson was badly cut and the fight would have been stopped in Turpin's favor in another round or two at most.

The ref stopped the fight and took away Turpin's title with only a few seconds left in the round.

He would never have done that if the situation had been reversed.
(Taken away Robinson's title with a few seconds left in a round and Robinson's opponent severely cut.)

When the fight was stopped, Robinson was completely exhausted and could barely walk to his corner.

What sleaze refereee Goldstein did stunk to high heavens in that fight.

[granberry]

Robinson was so long ago...

Classic clueless post.

If Robinson was "so long ago," then where does that put Joe Gans, Bob Fitzsimmons, Stanley Ketchel etc etc etc?

The internet is the home of the clueless.

[1396582]

These 5 guys I think at their very best would have beaten a prime Sugar Ray Robinson in a 5 fight series. Watching the original Sugar Ray fight, there is no question of his greatness. But I saw some flaws that the fighters below would have taken advantage of it.


1. Sugar Ray Leonard at 147 lbs: Like Robinson, Leonard was also exceptional. Probably a carbon copy of Ali or the real Sugar Ray. But in my opinion, Leonard was more complete than the original Sugar Ray. Maybe the original Sugar Ray had better punching power, but I do not think that Leonard would have get stopped by him. We witnessed that he took the best shots of Marcos Geraldo, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran when he was in his prime. Always a guy that liked to study his opponents on film before fights, Leonard would find something. In the latter rounds, Leonard used to get stronger as the fight progressed, while Robinson looked like he weakend in his stamina after the 10th round. Both guys will throw hooks to the body, but their bodies were so conditioned in that area that neither of the two will wilt. Leonard, like the way he fought Duran in those 2 fights, was great. I pick Leonard as better inside fighter than Robinson and more determined. Leonard wins the series probably 3-2 or 4-1. I pick Robinson to win at 160 though.

2. Roberto Duran at 147 lbs: When I see his fights with DeJesus (final match) and Leonard I in Montreal, we forget to see how magnificent "Manos de Piedra" was in his prime. A pure fighter. More complete fighter than Robinson in my view. I have never seen somebody making you miss at close range in the infighting, giving you all kinds of angles. Leonard nor DeJesus could do nothing about it. When Duran had something to prove, like Robinson, he was at his very best. Giving the styles, when Duran was motivated and in great shape, was a perfect fighting machine. I have not seen no one better in my 29 years of watching fights. We also tend to forget that Duran's most underrated asset was not his punching power or defense. It was his SPEED. If Carmen Basilio made Robinson missed and gave him unbeliavable pressure, what then we cannot think about Duran giving him pressure a la Montreal? Basilio does not have Duran technical abilities. If we say that Robinson was shot, then ain't Basilio was going up in weight and smaller than he? Duran wins the series or 4-1, that is if he is at his complete best.

3. Carlos Monzon at 160 lbs: NO MATTER WHAT VERSION OF ROBINSON YOU THROW AT KING CARLOS, I cannot see Robinson winning a fight here. Monzon's technique LOOKED TERRIBLE in some sort of way and in some people's standards, but he was a very tough man to discourage. I cannot see Robinson outboxing him either. Who was stronger? I give the edge to Monzon. Robinson had never fought someone of Monzon's physical attributes. Robinson never fought someone that had that long reach. Robinson probably never fought someone as intelligent as King Carlos, that made you fight at his pace, no matter what. In the infighting, probably Robinson had the edge there, but I cannot see King Carlos get rattled. If you came dirty at him, he fought dirtier. Monzon would probably not KO Robinson, but would win all the fights via unanimous decision.

4. Marvin Hagler at 160 lbs: Watching his fights at his very best, "Marvelous Marvin" was one of the most complete fighters that I have ever seen in my lifetime. He could box, he could trade, he could punch, had awesome stamina, great chin, and was tough as nails. Maybe Robinson had the advantage of speed and power and height, but that's about it. Marvin had better stamina than Robinson, punched more than Robinson in the latter rounds, and always finished strong in all his fights. In a 5 fight series, I pick Marvin 3-2. This is the closest that Robinson can get against all the 5 great ones.


5. Bob Foster at 175 lbs: At 175 lbs??? Forget it!!! I cannot see no one coming up in from the middleweights and defeat Bob Foster. One of the finest light heavys of all time and one of history of boxing greatest punchers. Robinson went up in weight and was beating the circles of Joey Maxim, a great fighter of the 175 lb class, but Maxim is not Bob Foster. Ask Dick Tiger. Can Robinson take a shot from this monster? Foster would keep him at bay with his long range jab. In the exchanges, probably Robinson would have have the edge, but will not have the power to stop a bigger foe like Foster. Foster was a monster at light heavyweight. Only 3 of his 8 losses were against light heavys, but those were losses when he was probably green or learning the trade or when he was in decline. Once he learned the trade, at 175, nobody could stop him!!! Foster would stop him every time they fight. Too much power for the Original Sugar Ray.


These are the 5 guys that I see beating Robinson in a 5-fight series. Others like the great Pernell Whitaker, and complete great fighters like Mike McCallum, and Bernard Hopkins could also would have beaten him, but I do not see them winning the series. First, Whitaker would probably win one fight of the series or two, because of his boxing cleverness, but Robinson would probably be too strong for him. Hopkins and McCallum? Well, Hopkins best night when he beat Felix "Tito" Trinidad looked awesome, but Robinson is not Tito. And McCallum probably win one fight or 2 against the original Sugar Ray, but will not win the series.

Let's see your opinions. I feel that this would be a long thread of opinions. Get ready experts.

You could add Roy Jones in there too, and replace him with Duran.

[elmersalsa]

These 5 guys I think at their very best would have beaten a prime Sugar Ray Robinson in a 5 fight series. Watching the original Sugar Ray fight, there is no question of his greatness. But I saw some flaws that the fighters below would have taken advantage of it.


1. Sugar Ray Leonard at 147 lbs: Like Robinson, Leonard was also exceptional. Probably a carbon copy of Ali or the real Sugar Ray. But in my opinion, Leonard was more complete than the original Sugar Ray. Maybe the original Sugar Ray had better punching power, but I do not think that Leonard would have get stopped by him. We witnessed that he took the best shots of Marcos Geraldo, Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran when he was in his prime. Always a guy that liked to study his opponents on film before fights, Leonard would find something. In the latter rounds, Leonard used to get stronger as the fight progressed, while Robinson looked like he weakend in his stamina after the 10th round. Both guys will throw hooks to the body, but their bodies were so conditioned in that area that neither of the two will wilt. Leonard, like the way he fought Duran in those 2 fights, was great. I pick Leonard as better inside fighter than Robinson and more determined. Leonard wins the series probably 3-2 or 4-1. I pick Robinson to win at 160 though.

2. Roberto Duran at 147 lbs: When I see his fights with DeJesus (final match) and Leonard I in Montreal, we forget to see how magnificent "Manos de Piedra" was in his prime. A pure fighter. More complete fighter than Robinson in my view. I have never seen somebody making you miss at close range in the infighting, giving you all kinds of angles. Leonard nor DeJesus could do nothing about it. When Duran had something to prove, like Robinson, he was at his very best. Giving the styles, when Duran was motivated and in great shape, was a perfect fighting machine. I have not seen no one better in my 29 years of watching fights. We also tend to forget that Duran's most underrated asset was not his punching power or defense. It was his SPEED. If Carmen Basilio made Robinson missed and gave him unbeliavable pressure, what then we cannot think about Duran giving him pressure a la Montreal? Basilio does not have Duran technical abilities. If we say that Robinson was shot, then ain't Basilio was going up in weight and smaller than he? Duran wins the series or 4-1, that is if he is at his complete best.

3. Carlos Monzon at 160 lbs: NO MATTER WHAT VERSION OF ROBINSON YOU THROW AT KING CARLOS, I cannot see Robinson winning a fight here. Monzon's technique LOOKED TERRIBLE in some sort of way and in some people's standards, but he was a very tough man to discourage. I cannot see Robinson outboxing him either. Who was stronger? I give the edge to Monzon. Robinson had never fought someone of Monzon's physical attributes. Robinson never fought someone that had that long reach. Robinson probably never fought someone as intelligent as King Carlos, that made you fight at his pace, no matter what. In the infighting, probably Robinson had the edge there, but I cannot see King Carlos get rattled. If you came dirty at him, he fought dirtier. Monzon would probably not KO Robinson, but would win all the fights via unanimous decision.

4. Marvin Hagler at 160 lbs: Watching his fights at his very best, "Marvelous Marvin" was one of the most complete fighters that I have ever seen in my lifetime. He could box, he could trade, he could punch, had awesome stamina, great chin, and was tough as nails. Maybe Robinson had the advantage of speed and power and height, but that's about it. Marvin had better stamina than Robinson, punched more than Robinson in the latter rounds, and always finished strong in all his fights. In a 5 fight series, I pick Marvin 3-2. This is the closest that Robinson can get against all the 5 great ones.


5. Bob Foster at 175 lbs: At 175 lbs??? Forget it!!! I cannot see no one coming up in from the middleweights and defeat Bob Foster. One of the finest light heavys of all time and one of history of boxing greatest punchers. Robinson went up in weight and was beating the circles of Joey Maxim, a great fighter of the 175 lb class, but Maxim is not Bob Foster. Ask Dick Tiger. Can Robinson take a shot from this monster? Foster would keep him at bay with his long range jab. In the exchanges, probably Robinson would have have the edge, but will not have the power to stop a bigger foe like Foster. Foster was a monster at light heavyweight. Only 3 of his 8 losses were against light heavys, but those were losses when he was probably green or learning the trade or when he was in decline. Once he learned the trade, at 175, nobody could stop him!!! Foster would stop him every time they fight. Too much power for the Original Sugar Ray.


These are the 5 guys that I see beating Robinson in a 5-fight series. Others like the great Pernell Whitaker, and complete great fighters like Mike McCallum, and Bernard Hopkins could also would have beaten him, but I do not see them winning the series. First, Whitaker would probably win one fight of the series or two, because of his boxing cleverness, but Robinson would probably be too strong for him. Hopkins and McCallum? Well, Hopkins best night when he beat Felix "Tito" Trinidad looked awesome, but Robinson is not Tito. And McCallum probably win one fight or 2 against the original Sugar Ray, but will not win the series.

Let's see your opinions. I feel that this would be a long thread of opinions. Get ready experts.

You could add Roy Jones in there too, and replace him with Duran.

That Roberto Duran in Montreal was too fantastic. Maybe we could add Ezzard Charles in there, too.

Seven great boxers that could have beaten the great Sugar Ray Robinson. Depending on the weight class.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Ah, yes, the good ol’ days when men were still men and boxrec was still untutored with Elmo and Alpsy fantasies.

Who can forget Dempsey claiming a big boned Hulk like Sam Peter was really a 190lb cruiser?

Or me being accused of being granberry who apparently copped a ban?

Ah, yeah, so late to the party best to best Robby capable of beating anyone in his prime years from 147-160, but at 147 before he blew by the division Duran might pull the trick and maybe Hearns if he weren’t overtrained and dried out like he were vs Leonard.

Whooped Kid Gavilan fair and square in a fight boringly technical.

Monzon the only middle mentioned who might Whoop him.

Whoever suggested LH should be whipped while encased in a stock with patrons throwing rotten eggs and produce at the dummy…yeah!!!

[gilgamesh]

For the record back in Robinson's era when guys routinely fought series of 3 and 4 fights I think even Leonard would've taken losses against the likes of Hearns and all that.

There's not too many Welterweights that I would pick as a shoe in over Robinson in his prime, but there's certainly a few who could go even money with him and therefore potentially beat him.

At Middleweight I think it's highly probable that Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, and Ezzard Charles could've beaten him.

It's interesting to ponder fights like 160 James Toney or Roy Jones vs Sugar Ray Robinson.

I favor Robinson in those bouts as I think both Toney and Roy didn't really peak until they bulked up a little. They were shedding too much weight to make 160 and weren't operating at their full potential.

I always think the idea of guys sweating down to their lowest possible weight is a bad idea personally. I think people are better served to just get in as good of shape as possible and fight there. Trying to get as light as possible at all costs often hinders people.

I feel like Roy and Toney are fine examples of this as we saw them both improve as fighters once they grew into 168 and beyond.