Pacquiao: Great fighter or right timing?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Great timing but hes an excellent fighter. Last night he looked like shit. Barrera was old but won the first 5 and then 8 for me - I couldnt score the last 3 rounds but thats 6 rounds against an old Barrera. Barrera was never getting the decision last night though with 1 judge giving him only 2 rounds - WTF!!!!

If Pacman fought a prime Hamed instead of Barrera in 2003 he would have got sparked but it would be a multi-knockdown war most likely. But Pacman is way too easy to find and Hamed would sucker him in and smash him

If Barrera was in his 2001 form he would have beaten Pac in a decision

Morales at his best beats Pacman. Morales was past his prime when he got beat by Raheem, is Raheem an ATG?

Two of the judges only gave him two rounds! Ridiculous!

I didnt have a problem with Pacman winning, I had Barrera winning but I prefer his work, Pacman had successes too, but no domination that you'd think would happen from reading the US forums

Am I the only 1 who thought it was a close fight?

I had MAB 1 round up going into the setanta cock-up, even if Pacman won those three, he couldn't have won it by more than 4 rounds on my card.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

No, I aint seen the last three rounds yet - the biggest I can have it in Pac Man favour is by 2 rounds. I had Barrera 1 up going into the Setanta problems.

10 - MAB - just but clearer than the first 4 for me
11 - Pacman BIGGEST ROUND, MAB docked a point for hitting on the break, Pacman was near KTFO and needed 60seconds break
12 - PAC - edged with workrate and aggression

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Setanta had 10-12 on the replay it maybe worth checking your TV guides for another replay

[Goz]

Didn't score round by round but felt Pac was getting the better of things. Thought those 9 point margins were a bit too wide though.

I think Manny is probably good for 'modern great' status although I understand what we mean about the issue of good timing, he has been a bit fortunate in that respect.

[steve689]

Keep Pac away from Juan Diaz, WBA lightweight holder. That's an easy win for Juan.

That's an interesting statement Autobarn. I have only seen Diaz once and that was against Freitas, he has a relentless workrate and is always in your face but possibly lacks world class pop and can be outobxed. Freitas was too old and weary to maintain a pace but he was outboxing Diaz in rounds and finding him all so easy to hit.

Surely Pacquiao would find the gaps and punish Diaz? Am i missing something on Diaz?

[Autobarn]

Keep Pac away from Juan Diaz, WBA lightweight holder. That's an easy win for Juan.

That's an interesting statement Autobarn. I have only seen Diaz once and that was against Freitas, he has a relentless workrate and is always in your face but possibly lacks world class pop and can be outobxed. Freitas was too old and weary to maintain a pace but he was outboxing Diaz in rounds and finding him all so easy to hit.

Surely Pacquiao would find the gaps and punish Diaz? Am i missing something on Diaz?

he can go at a very fast pace. he's learned to relax more in the ring and instead of throwing non stop shots every round, he takes his time and grinds you down. can start slow but he knows how to pick off punches, and take the steam out of a fighter. become a more mature fighter. if that fight had somehow gone 12 rounds, he would have just been eating Freitas.

I find it hard to imagine Pac having the ability to outbox a very good fighter who's bigger than him. Pac's really limited when he's not in his "bouncy" mode. If Barrera had some reflexes he would have beaten Pac last Sat.

Current sceners who have seen Diaz a lot mostly make him a fave over Pacquiao. It's a marketable fight. Pac wants revenge for the beating Diaz laid on Filipino Randy Suico (a fight that was on Sky on a big fight undercard, poss Mosley-Vargas 2).

I don't think Diaz is great - he lacks the power to be a great pressure guy - but IMo he has the goods to beat Pac, who'd be really out of sorts vs a bigger guy. I reckon Pac's been fortunate to do so well at 130 because he's not really faced a natural super feather...

[jamesmcdonnell]

It's worth bearing in mind though, that Pacman struggled mightily to get under 130 for this fight, weighing 143 on the night, a massive amount of weight to put on for such a little guy. I think this may explain the slower pace he fought at against Barrera. I think he was very very wary of gassing myself, all this talk of different tactics is utter bollocks, for me, he barely won a close one, no matter what two of the judges thought.

At 135, he may find a new lease of life, he is 28 now after all, and already outgrew super feather and bantam pretty fast.

I want to see him in with some fighters in their prime now, he's been able to feast a little bit on the likes of Morales and Barrera, the Barrera win was creditable and unexpected, but since then, he's not been in with a big hitting super featherweight who is a natural at the weight.

I'd love to see him with Guzman, but I think Guzman will quite possibly have too much of everything for him. He has skills like Marquez, but more power, and is a bigger guy as well.

[Cannibal]

Get him in with Valero, bombs away.

[THEBUTCH]

Pacquiao has proved he is great boxer, no doubt about it. Just look at his performances against the best boxers Mexico has to offer This alone is enough to put him on a pedalstall, but when you add in the rest of his career too, he's clearly a very special athlete.

[MightyWarrior]

It was a bit weird to see Manny doing the shaky leg routine by the ropes, when MAB landed that cheap shot.
Maybe he was going for the point deduction, to be on the safe side?

The loved up Yank commentators seemed 100% sure he was badly hurt, but I don't think there's anyway he was. He takes A LOT harder shot than that, his eyes were clear, and he was right as rain within a few seconds.

Anyone else see it that way, or do you reckon that leg wobble was genuine?

[MightyWarrior]

Hard to say, but he's proved a great hit at featherweight, and taken part in some fantastic fights against every killer on the block.

MAB and Morales are recognised as greats, but maybe if they'd been around in the era of Gomez, Arguello, Sanchez, Zarate, there's a chance they might just have been contenders.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Christ, that's a bit harsh! I know the talent pool af featherweight is very deep, but 'might' have been contenders? I dare say that Barrera would have held his own against most featherweights in history, although big lanky Sandy Saddler would have probably battered him senseless, I cannot think of too many others who would have.

I'd have loved to have seen Barrera against Nelson, what an incredible fight that would have been.

[steve689]

Get him in with Valero, bombs away.

Here, Here. It's a natural, why is no one making it?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Valero hasn't got much of a following outside of Japan at the moment, and for the time being cannot fight in Vegas.

Theoretically though, he could fight in the Phillipines, where they've probably heard more about him.

Think Pacman probably has too many wrinkles for Valero, but I can see him moving up to lightweight before that happens. When you look at how drawn Pacman looked that night, it's incredible he ever made super flyweight.

[MightyWarrior]

Christ, that's a bit harsh! I know the talent pool af featherweight is very deep, but 'might' have been contenders? I dare say that Barrera would have held his own against most featherweights in history, although big lanky Sandy Saddler would have probably battered him senseless, I cannot think of too many others who would have.

I'd have loved to have seen Barrera against Nelson, what an incredible fight that would have been.

Ok maybe that's a bit harsh, but what I meant was while I've no doubt they'd have been at least contenders in any era, that's all they might have been in the wrong era, rather than long serving champions.

I reckon there's more than a few fighters out there, who may have made it to all time great status, but came up against an even better fighter, possibly too early in their careers, and had their potential cut short as a result.

Sure a bad loss doesn't always ruin a fighter, but a slow ref and a few too many punches can mean all the difference. Pedroza, who went onto make 19 defences, came up against Zamora too early in his career, and was nearly decapitated inside 2 rounds. Amazing he came back from that really, but perhaps because it was two clean punches that finished it, not too much damage was done.

And the same Zamora happened to run into the even better Carlos Zarate, who pretty much broke his chin and heart and ended up putting paid to what might have been a sensational career.

I'm just thinking that if an up & coming Pac, MAB or Morales happened to have been around the time of near invincible champions like Arguello or Gomez, their confidence and careers MIGHT have been wrecked before they even started.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Christ, that's a bit harsh! I know the talent pool af featherweight is very deep, but 'might' have been contenders? I dare say that Barrera would have held his own against most featherweights in history, although big lanky Sandy Saddler would have probably battered him senseless, I cannot think of too many others who would have.

I'd have loved to have seen Barrera against Nelson, what an incredible fight that would have been.

Ok maybe that's a bit harsh, but what I meant was while I've no doubt they'd have been at least contenders in any era, that's all they might have been in the wrong era, rather than long serving champions.

I reckon there's more than a few fighters out there, who may have made it to all time great status, but came up against an even better fighter, possibly too early in their careers, and had their potential cut short as a result.

Sure a bad loss doesn't always ruin a fighter, but a slow ref and a few too many punches can mean all the difference. Pedroza, who went onto make 19 defences, came up against Zamora too early in his career, and was nearly decapitated inside 2 rounds. Amazing he came back from that really, but perhaps because it was two clean punches that finished it, not too much damage was done.

And the same Zamora happened to run into the even better Carlos Zarate, who pretty much broke his chin and heart and ended up putting paid to what might have been a sensational career.

I'm just thinking that if an up & coming Pac, MAB or Morales happened to have been around the time of near invincible champions like Arguello or Gomez, their confidence and careers MIGHT have been wrecked before they even started.

There's something in that yes, however, the counterpoint to that I think, is that really great fighters learn from their losses and come back better fighters, just like Barrera against Jr Jones, or Nelson against Sanchez.

A weaker fighter mentally who falls short of greatness in that mental aspect, like Hamed (a very good fighter who was great in many areas, but not that one), will regroup and rally.

Of course, there are fighters who get so badly done over they are never the same. Who knows how good Teddy Reid or Davey Moore might have been had they not run into their bogeymen, both of whom were a lot more experienced than them?

[Autobarn]

It's worth bearing in mind though, that Pacman struggled mightily to get under 130 for this fight, weighing 143 on the night, a massive amount of weight to put on for such a little guy. I think this may explain the slower pace he fought at against Barrera. I think he was very very wary of gassing myself, all this talk of different tactics is utter bollocks, for me, he barely won a close one, no matter what two of the judges thought.

At 135, he may find a new lease of life, he is 28 now after all, and already outgrew super feather and bantam pretty fast.

I want to see him in with some fighters in their prime now, he's been able to feast a little bit on the likes of Morales and Barrera, the Barrera win was creditable and unexpected, but since then, he's not been in with a big hitting super featherweight who is a natural at the weight.

I'd love to see him with Guzman, but I think Guzman will quite possibly have too much of everything for him. He has skills like Marquez, but more power, and is a bigger guy as well.

I think lightweight is too far. Pac won his first world title at flyweight although he was too big for that division and losing too much weight to get down.

Michael Katz is an idiot for saying Barrera didn't win any rounds last weekend and that Pac should fight Marquez up at lightweight. wtf is that about. Marquez would be a fat bastard at lightweight.

I reckon Soto's going to beat Guzman and that he'd beat Pac as well.

[MightyWarrior]

What site does Katz write on now?