does naseem hamed belong in the hall of fame?
re
Well here is my view about Hamed, which I posted on another thread, but which is relevant to this thread!
I think that Hamed is certainly, in my opinion, deserving to be elected to the Hall of Fame. A lot of people have claimed over the years that Naseem Hamed does not deserve to be a Hall of Famer, but I disagree very much! The notion that all the top quality fighters that Hamed beat were just not that good at the time when Hamed beat them is just utter nonsense!!! It's also a very weak claim as there really is nothing that can actually back it up!
As far as his career, I think Hamed had a great career, which was certainly HOF worthy! His hitting power was among the very best that I ever seen at the featherweight limit and he pretty much cleared out the division and then Barrera moved up and gave Hamed a boxing lesson, which unfortunately the Barrera fight is what people seem to remember and that is very, very unfair. Hamed knocked out some top notch fighters…some of which had never been stopped. Hamed won the WBO featherweight belt by beating tough Steve Robinson, who was on an eight fight winning streak, seven of which were title defense wins and the bout with Hamed was his eighth defense, but Hamed easily won stopping Robinson for the first time in his career. Very few Americans have seen much of Steve Robinson, but most British fans, who have been a boxing fan since Robinson’s time; well they can certainly verify how good Robinson actually was.
He followed the Robinson win with two quick knockouts over a couple of quality opponents, but not great fighters. However his third defense was against tough former champ Manuel Medina and Hamed pretty much dominated Medina stopping him in the 11th round. Some would claim that Medina was past his prime when Hamed beat him, but Medina would go on to win the IBF featherweight title on two more occasions and the WBO featherweight belt on one other occasion following his loss to Hamed. Overall Medina was a five-time featherweight world champion! Pretty lofty laurels!!!
Hamed had an easy-one in his next fight beating undefeated Remigio Molina, who was 27-0-0…Hamed, blasted him away in 2 round.
His next fight Hamed beat Tom Johnson, who at the time was considered the best featherweight in the world and had been viewed as such for a few years, the IBF featherweight champion. Hamed was Johnson 13th defense of the IBF belt and Hamed destroyed him. Johnson took a bad beating and was stopped for the first time in his career. This win gave Hamed the IBF belt to go with his WBO title.
Hamed followed with three more title defenses against solid opposition scoring three knockouts.
His next bout against Kevin Kelley was his most exciting fight and probably his best win as a professional. Kelley, a former champion, came into the fight with a record of 47-1-2 (32 KO). Both fighters were knocked down multiple times, but Hamed was the one to overcome scoring a knockout of Kelley.
Hamed’s next bout was ever tougher, well on paper at least, as he took on three-division world champion and current WBA featherweight world champion Wilfredo Vazquez. Vazquez was a murderous puncher who had scored some very impressive wins in his career. Vazquez was certainly not at his best as he was nearing the end of a glorious career, but he was in fact the WBA featherweight champion, though the WBA would not sanction the fight and they stripped Vazquez, so the only title which was on the line was Hamed’s WBO title. Again Hamed beat a top notch opponent with relative ease giving Vazquez a solid beating. Hamed had now beaten the WBO, IBF and WBA featherweight champions.
Instead of taking an easy bout Hamed took on tough Wayne McCullough, who was a former bantamweight champion as well as a fighter who had one of the best chins in the history of the sport. Hamed punished the tough Irishman and won an easy points victory in the 11th defense of his featherweight world title.
Hamed the defended against tough Paul Ingle and again gave a top quality fighter a solid beating. Ingle would later win the IBF featherweight title following his loss to Hamed.
Now Hamed only needed to fight the WBC featherweight champion to make a clean sweep of the division, which a victory would leave no question about who the real world featherweight champion was, though most already considered Hamed the real champion a win over the WBC champion would seal it. So Hamed goes after WBC featherweight champion Cesar Soto. The fight turned out to be one of the ugliest title fights in history as Soto was very unorthodox and really just quite unprofessional, but Hamed was able to win fairly easy which gave him the WBC belt to go along with his WBO belt. The IBF had either stripped Hamed, or he dropped the belt, but it was certainly not due to him not fighting the top ranked opponents. The WBA had stripped Vazquez because he chose to fight Hamed, so that belt was not on the line in that fight, but there was not question that Vazquez was the WB champion when he faced Hamed.
So now Hamed had beaten all of the top belt holders and the featherweight division had a unified champion for the first time since the IBF organization was formed in the middle 1980s.
Hamed followed the Soto bout with an impressive performance over long-time Jr. Featherweight champion Vuyani Bungu. Going into the bout Bungu had defended his Jr. Featherweight belt 13 times of which he had defeated such fighters as Kennedy McKinney (twice), Jesus Salud and Danny Romero. Hamed just steam-rolled Bungu right from the start and scored a stoppage in round 4, which this was the first and only time that Bungu was ever stopped in his career.
Hamed next fought hard-punching Augie Sanchez, but it was Hamed who landed the hard punches as he scored a frightening knockout over Sanchez in one of the better knockouts of 2000. Hamed was completely in love with his ability to punch at this point and this is what really hurt him against Barrera.
Hamed was brought down to earth in his next fight as he fought Mexican great Marco Antonio Barrera. Going into the bout Hamed had a record of 35-0-0 (31 KO). He had scored knockouts against the best in the division and unfortunately for Hamed, he felt that he could simply knockout every single fighter he faced, so instead of taking Barrera serious and training in a proper manner, Hamed was content to hype everything on his punch and he was certainly in the lime-light while Barrera was sweating it out in the gym. It seems like the little training that Hamed was doing focused primarily on power punching techniques, such as throwing vicious uppercuts on the speed bag, instead of actually working the speed bag. One punch uppercuts to the speed-bag and single bombs to the heavy-bag was the only training that I recall seeing Hamed do leading up to the fight with Barrera. Hamed was overly confident that it would be an early night and a quick knockout, but Barrera had other ideas and he solidly out-boxed, out-fought and out-punched Hamed in every area and he simply embarrassed Hamed. The scorecards were a lot closer than the fight actually was as Barrera won very easily and the fight pretty much ended Hamed’s career. It wasn’t that Hamed took a serious beating, or anything, but he did take a serious boxing lesson and the embarrassment evidently shattered his confidence and the over-the-top ego that Hamed carried from day one was deflated in an ugly manner as Barrera was at his very best.
Hamed would fight one more time winning an easy, but very unimpressive bout against a relative unknown go all twelve rounds.
Hamed would be the first to knockout a slew of tough boxers. He was the first fighter to stop Freddy Cruz, who had had 56 fights prior to facing Hamed. Sergio Liendo had not been stopped in 49 bouts prior to Hamed. He was the second fighter to ever stop Peter Buckley who has a career total of 245 losses of which he has only been stopped ten times total. He was the first to stop Steve Robinson and also Tom Johnson, who had not been stopped in 48 bouts prior to facing Hamed. He was the first of only two fighters to stop tough Juan Cabrera who has been stopped twice in 68 bouts. First to stop Jose Badilla, Paul Ingle and Vuyani Bungu.
If Hamed never fights again, which he really shouldn’t being that his last fight was five years ago, then his final career record will be 36-1-0 (31 KO). His record in world title fights will be 16-1-0 (14 KO). He scored 11 straight knockouts in his first 11 world title bouts. He beat ten of the eleven world champions that he faced and he beat several European boxing champions. He fought five probable Hall of Famers beating four!
I can certainly name several boxers who are currently in the HOF who much less deserve to be there compared to Hamed. As I mentioned, unfortunately a lot of people focus entirely on Hamed's loss to Barrera instead of fairly looking at his entire career! Hamed was a very outrageous showman, which being so greatly turned off most fans, but Hamed should not be judged on his behavior out of the ring...he should be judged on his performance and doings in the ring and not just the Barrera fight...all of his fights! There have been few fighters of the past twenty years that have been so thoroughly dominant in one division and very few have beaten the WBC, WBA, IBF and WBO world champions in one division...Hamed accomplished it and he certainly left us with a number of exciting performances as well as a slew of exciting knockouts! Does Naseem Hamed deserve to be a Hall of Famer...absolutely!!!
I think that Hamed is certainly, in my opinion, deserving to be elected to the Hall of Fame. A lot of people have claimed over the years that Naseem Hamed does not deserve to be a Hall of Famer, but I disagree very much! The notion that all the top quality fighters that Hamed beat were just not that good at the time when Hamed beat them is just utter nonsense!!! It's also a very weak claim as there really is nothing that can actually back it up!
As far as his career, I think Hamed had a great career, which was certainly HOF worthy! His hitting power was among the very best that I ever seen at the featherweight limit and he pretty much cleared out the division and then Barrera moved up and gave Hamed a boxing lesson, which unfortunately the Barrera fight is what people seem to remember and that is very, very unfair. Hamed knocked out some top notch fighters…some of which had never been stopped. Hamed won the WBO featherweight belt by beating tough Steve Robinson, who was on an eight fight winning streak, seven of which were title defense wins and the bout with Hamed was his eighth defense, but Hamed easily won stopping Robinson for the first time in his career. Very few Americans have seen much of Steve Robinson, but most British fans, who have been a boxing fan since Robinson’s time; well they can certainly verify how good Robinson actually was.
He followed the Robinson win with two quick knockouts over a couple of quality opponents, but not great fighters. However his third defense was against tough former champ Manuel Medina and Hamed pretty much dominated Medina stopping him in the 11th round. Some would claim that Medina was past his prime when Hamed beat him, but Medina would go on to win the IBF featherweight title on two more occasions and the WBO featherweight belt on one other occasion following his loss to Hamed. Overall Medina was a five-time featherweight world champion! Pretty lofty laurels!!!
Hamed had an easy-one in his next fight beating undefeated Remigio Molina, who was 27-0-0…Hamed, blasted him away in 2 round.
His next fight Hamed beat Tom Johnson, who at the time was considered the best featherweight in the world and had been viewed as such for a few years, the IBF featherweight champion. Hamed was Johnson 13th defense of the IBF belt and Hamed destroyed him. Johnson took a bad beating and was stopped for the first time in his career. This win gave Hamed the IBF belt to go with his WBO title.
Hamed followed with three more title defenses against solid opposition scoring three knockouts.
His next bout against Kevin Kelley was his most exciting fight and probably his best win as a professional. Kelley, a former champion, came into the fight with a record of 47-1-2 (32 KO). Both fighters were knocked down multiple times, but Hamed was the one to overcome scoring a knockout of Kelley.
Hamed’s next bout was ever tougher, well on paper at least, as he took on three-division world champion and current WBA featherweight world champion Wilfredo Vazquez. Vazquez was a murderous puncher who had scored some very impressive wins in his career. Vazquez was certainly not at his best as he was nearing the end of a glorious career, but he was in fact the WBA featherweight champion, though the WBA would not sanction the fight and they stripped Vazquez, so the only title which was on the line was Hamed’s WBO title. Again Hamed beat a top notch opponent with relative ease giving Vazquez a solid beating. Hamed had now beaten the WBO, IBF and WBA featherweight champions.
Instead of taking an easy bout Hamed took on tough Wayne McCullough, who was a former bantamweight champion as well as a fighter who had one of the best chins in the history of the sport. Hamed punished the tough Irishman and won an easy points victory in the 11th defense of his featherweight world title.
Hamed the defended against tough Paul Ingle and again gave a top quality fighter a solid beating. Ingle would later win the IBF featherweight title following his loss to Hamed.
Now Hamed only needed to fight the WBC featherweight champion to make a clean sweep of the division, which a victory would leave no question about who the real world featherweight champion was, though most already considered Hamed the real champion a win over the WBC champion would seal it. So Hamed goes after WBC featherweight champion Cesar Soto. The fight turned out to be one of the ugliest title fights in history as Soto was very unorthodox and really just quite unprofessional, but Hamed was able to win fairly easy which gave him the WBC belt to go along with his WBO belt. The IBF had either stripped Hamed, or he dropped the belt, but it was certainly not due to him not fighting the top ranked opponents. The WBA had stripped Vazquez because he chose to fight Hamed, so that belt was not on the line in that fight, but there was not question that Vazquez was the WB champion when he faced Hamed.
So now Hamed had beaten all of the top belt holders and the featherweight division had a unified champion for the first time since the IBF organization was formed in the middle 1980s.
Hamed followed the Soto bout with an impressive performance over long-time Jr. Featherweight champion Vuyani Bungu. Going into the bout Bungu had defended his Jr. Featherweight belt 13 times of which he had defeated such fighters as Kennedy McKinney (twice), Jesus Salud and Danny Romero. Hamed just steam-rolled Bungu right from the start and scored a stoppage in round 4, which this was the first and only time that Bungu was ever stopped in his career.
Hamed next fought hard-punching Augie Sanchez, but it was Hamed who landed the hard punches as he scored a frightening knockout over Sanchez in one of the better knockouts of 2000. Hamed was completely in love with his ability to punch at this point and this is what really hurt him against Barrera.
Hamed was brought down to earth in his next fight as he fought Mexican great Marco Antonio Barrera. Going into the bout Hamed had a record of 35-0-0 (31 KO). He had scored knockouts against the best in the division and unfortunately for Hamed, he felt that he could simply knockout every single fighter he faced, so instead of taking Barrera serious and training in a proper manner, Hamed was content to hype everything on his punch and he was certainly in the lime-light while Barrera was sweating it out in the gym. It seems like the little training that Hamed was doing focused primarily on power punching techniques, such as throwing vicious uppercuts on the speed bag, instead of actually working the speed bag. One punch uppercuts to the speed-bag and single bombs to the heavy-bag was the only training that I recall seeing Hamed do leading up to the fight with Barrera. Hamed was overly confident that it would be an early night and a quick knockout, but Barrera had other ideas and he solidly out-boxed, out-fought and out-punched Hamed in every area and he simply embarrassed Hamed. The scorecards were a lot closer than the fight actually was as Barrera won very easily and the fight pretty much ended Hamed’s career. It wasn’t that Hamed took a serious beating, or anything, but he did take a serious boxing lesson and the embarrassment evidently shattered his confidence and the over-the-top ego that Hamed carried from day one was deflated in an ugly manner as Barrera was at his very best.
Hamed would fight one more time winning an easy, but very unimpressive bout against a relative unknown go all twelve rounds.
Hamed would be the first to knockout a slew of tough boxers. He was the first fighter to stop Freddy Cruz, who had had 56 fights prior to facing Hamed. Sergio Liendo had not been stopped in 49 bouts prior to Hamed. He was the second fighter to ever stop Peter Buckley who has a career total of 245 losses of which he has only been stopped ten times total. He was the first to stop Steve Robinson and also Tom Johnson, who had not been stopped in 48 bouts prior to facing Hamed. He was the first of only two fighters to stop tough Juan Cabrera who has been stopped twice in 68 bouts. First to stop Jose Badilla, Paul Ingle and Vuyani Bungu.
If Hamed never fights again, which he really shouldn’t being that his last fight was five years ago, then his final career record will be 36-1-0 (31 KO). His record in world title fights will be 16-1-0 (14 KO). He scored 11 straight knockouts in his first 11 world title bouts. He beat ten of the eleven world champions that he faced and he beat several European boxing champions. He fought five probable Hall of Famers beating four!
I can certainly name several boxers who are currently in the HOF who much less deserve to be there compared to Hamed. As I mentioned, unfortunately a lot of people focus entirely on Hamed's loss to Barrera instead of fairly looking at his entire career! Hamed was a very outrageous showman, which being so greatly turned off most fans, but Hamed should not be judged on his behavior out of the ring...he should be judged on his performance and doings in the ring and not just the Barrera fight...all of his fights! There have been few fighters of the past twenty years that have been so thoroughly dominant in one division and very few have beaten the WBC, WBA, IBF and WBO world champions in one division...Hamed accomplished it and he certainly left us with a number of exciting performances as well as a slew of exciting knockouts! Does Naseem Hamed deserve to be a Hall of Famer...absolutely!!!
Well, Barry,
Thanks for the post. I feel like I need to reconsider. Robinson definitely was a world class fighter.
The main problem is just how quickly he dropped off the radar as well as just how easily Barrera handled him.
It really wasn't close and when you think of MAB as an ATG fighter the gulf between him and Hamed seems huge. I mean rarely is such a big fight so one sided.
Thanks for the post. I feel like I need to reconsider. Robinson definitely was a world class fighter.
The main problem is just how quickly he dropped off the radar as well as just how easily Barrera handled him.
It really wasn't close and when you think of MAB as an ATG fighter the gulf between him and Hamed seems huge. I mean rarely is such a big fight so one sided.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
re
>>>It really wasn't close and when you think of MAB as an ATG fighter the gulf between him and Hamed seems huge. I mean rarely is such a big fight so one sided.<<<
This is true, but then again...Hamed obviously had the worst night of his career, which was mostly due to Barrera, but fighters have had very bad nights as well.
But interms of one-sided bouts...actually we have seen several in the last few years. Trinidad versus Hopkins, or Trinidad vs Wright. Both were as one-sided as Barrera-Hamed. Calzaghe-Lacy, but then again...Lacy will never be considered for the HOF, but it was a very big fight which was thought be be in favor of Lacy. As far as other great fighters who have been dominated...well I'm sure that we could find several examples. I just think that Hamed is unjustly penalized way too much for that one fight.
As far as four HOF fighters that Hamed fought...for starters I stated, probable Hall of Famers, but not certain Hall of Famers, but the four fighters that I was thinking of who Hamed beat, who could very well be voted in at some point are Wilfredo Vazquez, Tom Johnson, Manuel Medina and possibly Vuyani Bungu, which most of these fighters, if ever elected with be done on the number of belts, or number of belt defenses, but they may never be elected, but compared to how many members are elected...they all have a good shot at some point!
But that's not the main point...the main point would be that whether, or not they are HOF members, they are top quality fighters...all four and all four were long-time championship quality fighters. Hamed has a resume with some really good quality opponents. It's not like his record is padded like a lot of other fighters of this generation and he was very dominant until he forgot about training.
I don't think any one could make the argument that the Hamed who fought Barrera was far from being the Hamed of even three years prior. He threw one punch at a time going for the knockout as that was all that he was concerned with, which with a fighter like Barrera, if he wants to go the distance against anyone, he will, but Hamed did not think that he could last three rounds and that is exactly how Hamed trained for the fight.
A lot of people claim that the Barrera fight exposed Hamed, but that's just not accurate. A fighter does not get exposed in his 17th title fight. The actual thing is that Hamed was exposed for not training properly in that fight. Before Hamed grew entirely dependant on the knockout he actually could box a bit and he use to throw combinations, so the bout with Barrera was certainly not Hamed at his best, which I do not want to take anything away from Barrera for his performance as he was masterful, but I do notice that many people do not hesitate to take away from Hamed and his opponents!
This is true, but then again...Hamed obviously had the worst night of his career, which was mostly due to Barrera, but fighters have had very bad nights as well.
But interms of one-sided bouts...actually we have seen several in the last few years. Trinidad versus Hopkins, or Trinidad vs Wright. Both were as one-sided as Barrera-Hamed. Calzaghe-Lacy, but then again...Lacy will never be considered for the HOF, but it was a very big fight which was thought be be in favor of Lacy. As far as other great fighters who have been dominated...well I'm sure that we could find several examples. I just think that Hamed is unjustly penalized way too much for that one fight.
As far as four HOF fighters that Hamed fought...for starters I stated, probable Hall of Famers, but not certain Hall of Famers, but the four fighters that I was thinking of who Hamed beat, who could very well be voted in at some point are Wilfredo Vazquez, Tom Johnson, Manuel Medina and possibly Vuyani Bungu, which most of these fighters, if ever elected with be done on the number of belts, or number of belt defenses, but they may never be elected, but compared to how many members are elected...they all have a good shot at some point!
But that's not the main point...the main point would be that whether, or not they are HOF members, they are top quality fighters...all four and all four were long-time championship quality fighters. Hamed has a resume with some really good quality opponents. It's not like his record is padded like a lot of other fighters of this generation and he was very dominant until he forgot about training.
I don't think any one could make the argument that the Hamed who fought Barrera was far from being the Hamed of even three years prior. He threw one punch at a time going for the knockout as that was all that he was concerned with, which with a fighter like Barrera, if he wants to go the distance against anyone, he will, but Hamed did not think that he could last three rounds and that is exactly how Hamed trained for the fight.
A lot of people claim that the Barrera fight exposed Hamed, but that's just not accurate. A fighter does not get exposed in his 17th title fight. The actual thing is that Hamed was exposed for not training properly in that fight. Before Hamed grew entirely dependant on the knockout he actually could box a bit and he use to throw combinations, so the bout with Barrera was certainly not Hamed at his best, which I do not want to take anything away from Barrera for his performance as he was masterful, but I do notice that many people do not hesitate to take away from Hamed and his opponents!
Re: re
barry wrote:>>>It really wasn't close and when you think of MAB as an ATG fighter the gulf between him and Hamed seems huge. I mean rarely is such a big fight so one sided.<<<
This is true, but then again...Hamed obviously had the worst night of his career, which was mostly due to Barrera, but fighters have had very bad nights as well.
But interms of one-sided bouts...actually we have seen several in the last few years. Trinidad versus Hopkins, or Trinidad vs Wright. Both were as one-sided as Barrera-Hamed. Calzaghe-Lacy, but then again...Lacy will never be considered for the HOF, but it was a very big fight which was thought be be in favor of Lacy. As far as other great fighters who have been dominated...well I'm sure that we could find several examples. I just think that Hamed is unjustly penalized way too much for that one fight.
As far as four HOF fighters that Hamed fought...for starters I stated, probable Hall of Famers, but not certain Hall of Famers, but the four fighters that I was thinking of who Hamed beat, who could very well be voted in at some point are Wilfredo Vazquez, Tom Johnson, Manuel Medina and possibly Vuyani Bungu, which most of these fighters, if ever elected with be done on the number of belts, or number of belt defenses, but they may never be elected, but compared to how many members are elected...they all have a good shot at some point!
But that's not the main point...the main point would be that whether, or not they are HOF members, they are top quality fighters...all four and all four were long-time championship quality fighters. Hamed has a resume with some really good quality opponents. It's not like his record is padded like a lot of other fighters of this generation and he was very dominant until he forgot about training.
I don't think any one could make the argument that the Hamed who fought Barrera was far from being the Hamed of even three years prior. He threw one punch at a time going for the knockout as that was all that he was concerned with, which with a fighter like Barrera, if he wants to go the distance against anyone, he will, but Hamed did not think that he could last three rounds and that is exactly how Hamed trained for the fight.
A lot of people claim that the Barrera fight exposed Hamed, but that's just not accurate. A fighter does not get exposed in his 17th title fight. The actual thing is that Hamed was exposed for not training properly in that fight. Before Hamed grew entirely dependant on the knockout he actually could box a bit and he use to throw combinations, so the bout with Barrera was certainly not Hamed at his best, which I do not want to take anything away from Barrera for his performance as he was masterful, but I do notice that many people do not hesitate to take away from Hamed and his opponents!
This sounds to me that we should not use this moment to judge Hamed anymore than we should use the PacMan moments to judge Barrera...Or the Junior Jones moments for that matter. Hamed has a huge target painted on him for not acting in a classy fashion at every turn....(OK I'm the master of the understatement) but we should not let his arrogance move us not to evaluate his career in a neutral fashion.
His Arrogance combined with him leaving the game when it didn't go just his way, has some meaning. But that meaning is subjective, and more emotional than clinicaly assessive. IMHO.
Re: re
In both Trinidad fight Tito was fighting up the weights. A guy who relies on power often struggles when moving up. In Hamed's case he was fighting a smaller guy moving up.barry wrote:
But interms of one-sided bouts...actually we have seen several in the last few years. Trinidad versus Hopkins, or Trinidad vs Wright. Both were as one-sided as Barrera-Hamed. Calzaghe-Lacy, but then again...Lacy will never be considered for the HOF, but it was a very big fight which was thought be be in favor of Lacy. As far as other great fighters who have been dominated...well I'm sure that we could find several examples. I just think that Hamed is unjustly penalized way too much for that one fight.
I agree that Hamed didn't train properly but it was the biggest fight of his career so it's hard to sympathise.
You have made me reconsider though. If Hamed gets in the fair enough.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Well, I don't know if expose is the right word, but the Barrera fight did show that Hamed wasn't a truly great fighter. He was outclassed. It was the one fight that he took a against a great fighter and he was outclassed.
I don't buy the "past his prime" arguement when he fought Barrera either. I saw Hamed on HBO several times and didn't show that he had great boxing skills. He had a big punch and good hand speed , but otherwise didn't show exceptional boxing skill.
We are supposed to think that Hamed beating a 37 year old Vasquez is a big deal, but try to excuse his loss to Barrera because the 27 year old Hamed was "no longer the fighter he had been"? Come on.
There is a huge gap between the best guys that Hamed beat, Bungu, Johnson, Medina, etc. and Barrera. They were good fighters, but not great fighters.
Beating good fighters (but not great), quitting when he was young instead of taking on the great opponents that were available, and losing convincingly against the only great fighter that he ever fought doesn't make him a legitimate Hall of Famer.
There are many fighters who actually beat great fighters who are more worthy.
I don't buy the "past his prime" arguement when he fought Barrera either. I saw Hamed on HBO several times and didn't show that he had great boxing skills. He had a big punch and good hand speed , but otherwise didn't show exceptional boxing skill.
We are supposed to think that Hamed beating a 37 year old Vasquez is a big deal, but try to excuse his loss to Barrera because the 27 year old Hamed was "no longer the fighter he had been"? Come on.
There is a huge gap between the best guys that Hamed beat, Bungu, Johnson, Medina, etc. and Barrera. They were good fighters, but not great fighters.
Beating good fighters (but not great), quitting when he was young instead of taking on the great opponents that were available, and losing convincingly against the only great fighter that he ever fought doesn't make him a legitimate Hall of Famer.
There are many fighters who actually beat great fighters who are more worthy.
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5564
- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
And therein lies the problem with your argument. Hamed's best fights DID come before his US/HBO debut. Whether he was past his prime or not by then is open to question, because it was more a case of him getting complacent than any natural erosion of skill, but his pre-Kelly fights displayed the qualities you've heard of.Ambling Alp wrote:I don't buy the "past his prime" arguement when he fought Barrera either. I saw Hamed on HBO several times and didn't show that he had great boxing skills. He had a big punch and good hand speed , but otherwise didn't show exceptional boxing skill.
I think Hamed was a very good fighter and champion but he didnt reach the greatness that he perhaps could have because he lost his focus and started believing his press clippings.... does he belong in the hall of fame?... he probably does, just for the entertainment he gave the fans for a few years... but as to him being a true 'great' no, he falls short.... he had greatness in his talent but he betrayed it and his punishment is that he didnt reach the greatness he once seemingly desired....
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
So the 23 year old Hamed who came to the United States was no longer that great? After so many years of greatness, he had grown complacent?oliverfennell wrote:And therein lies the problem with your argument. Hamed's best fights DID come before his US/HBO debut. Whether he was past his prime or not by then is open to question, because it was more a case of him getting complacent than any natural erosion of skill, but his pre-Kelly fights displayed the qualities you've heard of.Ambling Alp wrote:I don't buy the "past his prime" arguement when he fought Barrera either. I saw Hamed on HBO several times and didn't show that he had great boxing skills. He had a big punch and good hand speed , but otherwise didn't show exceptional boxing skill.
What a coincidence that he grew complacent right when came to the United States in 1997. That's too bad. What a coincidence that we didn't see Hamed at his best.
Even if someone buys that that arguement, Hamed didn't even pick up his WBO belt (which wasn't even considered a major belt at the time) until September of 1995. So he had what, one, two years of "greatness"?
That's not a Hall of Fame career even if you buy that arguement.
I was a huge admirer of Naz in the begining but soon saw that he believed in his own hype and had a nasty side to him... remember him ridiculing Vincenzo Belacastro?.... while Ali was joking (mostly) when he insulted his opponents Naz really was serious and took a spiteful delight in it.... then when he came up against someone who was better did he come back stronger and wiser?... no he ran off home to spend his life eating pizza and crashing into people.... not greatness in my book!...harrygreb wrote:and thats pretty much how i see it.
by the way, when the brits hate a fighter, he stays hated.
For all his faults at least Lennox Lewis came back from his defeats like a man, which is why I respect Lewis far more as a man and a fighter than Hamed....
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I don't know if anyone is saying that Hamed was past his prime when he fought Barrera...I certainly don't think he was past his prime at that time...but it is very obvious that he cleary did not properly train for that bout! Had he taken the bout serious and trained in a proper manner I guarantee that it would have been a different fight and possibly one that Hamed would have won, but a fighter cannot go in against a true professional like Barrera and expect to score a quick, one punch knockout!
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I think its unfair to Barrera to say such things really, looking at their respective careers it seems obvious to me that Marco was a level above Naz, could Naz have had three wars with Morales like Barrera?..... could Nz have come back from defeats like Barrera did?.... he couldnt and didnt.... the fact that Naz had so much trouble with Kelley showed that Barrera would have the beating of him... the training thing is just an excuse.... fighters often dont train properly for fights they feel they wont win, its a psychological trick people play on themselves so that when they lose they have the excuse that they didnt train rather than they simply werent good enough!. All that stuff about the gloves before the fight also showed that Hamed was basically scared stiff before the Barrera fight and well knew that he was heading to his first defeat.barry wrote:I don't know if anyone is saying that Hamed was past his prime when he fought Barrera...I certainly don't think he was past his prime at that time...but it is very obvious that he cleary did not properly train for that bout! Had he taken the bout serious and trained in a proper manner I guarantee that it would have been a different fight and possibly one that Hamed would have won, but a fighter cannot go in against a true professional like Barrera and expect to score a quick, one punch knockout!
Hamed had great talent but a little heart and thats why he never was a great fighter....
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silkov wrote:I think its unfair to Barrera to say such things really, looking at their respective careers it seems obvious to me that Marco was a level above Naz, could Naz have had three wars with Morales like Barrera?..... could Nz have come back from defeats like Barrera did?.... he couldnt and didnt.... the fact that Naz had so much trouble with Kelley showed that Barrera would have the beating of him... the training thing is just an excuse.... fighters often dont train properly for fights they feel they wont win, its a psychological trick people play on themselves so that when they lose they have the excuse that they didnt train rather than they simply werent good enough!. All that stuff about the gloves before the fight also showed that Hamed was basically scared stiff before the Barrera fight and well knew that he was heading to his first defeat.barry wrote:I don't know if anyone is saying that Hamed was past his prime when he fought Barrera...I certainly don't think he was past his prime at that time...but it is very obvious that he cleary did not properly train for that bout! Had he taken the bout serious and trained in a proper manner I guarantee that it would have been a different fight and possibly one that Hamed would have won, but a fighter cannot go in against a true professional like Barrera and expect to score a quick, one punch knockout!
Hamed had great talent but a little heart and thats why he never was a great fighter....
Well excuses are all over the place for all sorts of reasons.
The biggest gulf between Marco and Naz was that one man was the ultimate proffesional. E.G. When one man lost he went back and tried again (with the same opponent) and when he lost again he learned from it, picked up and went on with his carreer having his most defining fights from that point on. He was ALWAYS and probably still is a STUDENT of the sweet science. He even learned to put in a stalwart effort in hopeless causes.
The other man was a phenom of both power and agility. He rode those assets through his early fights and became so recognized that he forgot he was a student and began to feel as if he was the teacher....his psychological makeup did not allow for him to have a "learning curve" or accept defeat in any graceful manner. His issues were not his fighting ability or even his fighting potential but his personality. These guys are seperated by a huge "work ethics" gap.
So I would believe that Naz had the greater unfullfilled potential. Barrera squeezed a higher percentage of his potential out over his entire career...and as a result "notched" Naz along the way. And Antonio certainly has a greater career as a result.
However other than the fact that we can all be annoyed that we didn't see Naz become "all that he could have been", it does not take away the great things he accomplished along the way.
Example of another fighter that got Kudo's for his 'potentional" vs his actual deeds.
Sonny Liston....who the hell did this guy really define his career with? Floyd Patterson? To me that's not enough to put him in the top ten where he is often found. I think he gets there on unfullfilled potential that we all saw in him. And if he just "took a dive" against a young Cassius well that's a mark against his fighing spirit....just as bad work ethics are a mark against Naz.
I could go on here.....if you feel my Liston comparison is unwarranted I'm sure you will still get my basic point.
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>>>the training thing is just an excuse<<<
Bullshit!! An excuse would be...Hamed should not have lost, or Hamed was clearly past his prime and the only reason he lost is because Barrera got lucky!! Stating obvious facts is not an excuse!!!
>>>I think its unfair to Barrera to say such things really<<<
So you think it is unfair to state obvious facts?
Do you actually think that Hamed was properly trained for the fight with Barrera?
Sorry, but that's just not accurate, and speaking the truth certainly does not take anything away from Barrera, nor is it being unfair to him.
Hamed was clearly not properly trained. When one looks at most of his other fights, Hamed did throw combinations...he was not a single punch fighter. Against Barrera he was a single punch fighter...he did try to throw anything else. Also, I recall watching many training films of Hamed leading up to the Barrera fight and in every single one Hamed was throwing one punch bombs and that was about the only training that he did, well that and of course all of his promotional appearances, which he seemed to focus more on than he did the gym!!
No, if I were making excuses then I would be trying to point out ways as to why Hamed would have won had he been properly trained.
Bullshit!! An excuse would be...Hamed should not have lost, or Hamed was clearly past his prime and the only reason he lost is because Barrera got lucky!! Stating obvious facts is not an excuse!!!
>>>I think its unfair to Barrera to say such things really<<<
So you think it is unfair to state obvious facts?
Do you actually think that Hamed was properly trained for the fight with Barrera?
Sorry, but that's just not accurate, and speaking the truth certainly does not take anything away from Barrera, nor is it being unfair to him.
Hamed was clearly not properly trained. When one looks at most of his other fights, Hamed did throw combinations...he was not a single punch fighter. Against Barrera he was a single punch fighter...he did try to throw anything else. Also, I recall watching many training films of Hamed leading up to the Barrera fight and in every single one Hamed was throwing one punch bombs and that was about the only training that he did, well that and of course all of his promotional appearances, which he seemed to focus more on than he did the gym!!
No, if I were making excuses then I would be trying to point out ways as to why Hamed would have won had he been properly trained.
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I see you havent changed or grown up Barry!.... someone disagrees with you and youre off on the 'bullshit' crap.... and since when is 'an obvious fact' that Hamed would have beaten Barrera had he 'trained properly'.... its only an obvious fact in your own mind Bazz and luckily the rest of us dont have to reside there!.barry wrote:>>>the training thing is just an excuse<<<
Bullshit!! An excuse would be...Hamed should not have lost, or Hamed was clearly past his prime and the only reason he lost is because Barrera got lucky!! Stating obvious facts is not an excuse!!!
>>>I think its unfair to Barrera to say such things really<<<
So you think it is unfair to state obvious facts?
Do you actually think that Hamed was properly trained for the fight with Barrera?
Sorry, but that's just not accurate, and speaking the truth certainly does not take anything away from Barrera, nor is it being unfair to him.
Hamed was clearly not properly trained. When one looks at most of his other fights, Hamed did throw combinations...he was not a single punch fighter. Against Barrera he was a single punch fighter...he did try to throw anything else. Also, I recall watching many training films of Hamed leading up to the Barrera fight and in every single one Hamed was throwing one punch bombs and that was about the only training that he did, well that and of course all of his promotional appearances, which he seemed to focus more on than he did the gym!!
No, if I were making excuses then I would be trying to point out ways as to why Hamed would have won had he been properly trained.
Have a lie down Barry, its only a debate!.....
:P :P 
8)re
>>>I see you havent changed or grown up Barry!<<<
Oh quit whining!!! I wasn't speaking toward you, I was making a statment, but I guess your ears are too virgin to hear something like bullshit....next time I'll use "fudge sticks," would that be better for you?
And for the record...you're the one who resorted to insults little boy!
>>>and since when is 'an obvious fact' that Hamed would have beaten Barrera had he 'trained proper<<<
I see that you still do not have the ability to even properly read a sentence!!! You are a real idiot and you don't have the common sense to even see what is right in front of you! If you could then you would have read a couple of posts back where I stated that I don't think that Hamed could have beaten Barrera even if he had been at his best, but no...here you are as is typical with you making up fiction nonsense that no one ever said, which that seems to be about the best that you can do...talk about growing up...you need to do a lot of it!
Please...just don't bother me any more because I have no interest in anything you have to say alright!
Oh quit whining!!! I wasn't speaking toward you, I was making a statment, but I guess your ears are too virgin to hear something like bullshit....next time I'll use "fudge sticks," would that be better for you?
And for the record...you're the one who resorted to insults little boy!
>>>and since when is 'an obvious fact' that Hamed would have beaten Barrera had he 'trained proper<<<
I see that you still do not have the ability to even properly read a sentence!!! You are a real idiot and you don't have the common sense to even see what is right in front of you! If you could then you would have read a couple of posts back where I stated that I don't think that Hamed could have beaten Barrera even if he had been at his best, but no...here you are as is typical with you making up fiction nonsense that no one ever said, which that seems to be about the best that you can do...talk about growing up...you need to do a lot of it!
Please...just don't bother me any more because I have no interest in anything you have to say alright!
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Are we allowed to insult other posters now ( even if it is Silkov :P ) ...... or are only moderators allowed to do it?barry wrote: You are a real idiot and you don't have the common sense to even see what is right in front of you!
Just curious like, cos I want to insult a few people as well.
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One last thing concerning silky:
Here is my exact statement a couple of posts back, yet silky boy felt the need to make up bullshit that no one ever said and then he wonders why I use a word like bullshit when responding to someone like him:
"I don't know if anyone is saying that Hamed was past his prime when he fought Barrera...I certainly don't think he was past his prime at that time...but it is very obvious that he clearly did not properly train for that bout! Had he taken the bout serious and trained in a proper manner I guarantee that it would have been a different fight and possibly one that Hamed would have won, but a fighter cannot go in against a true professional like Barrera and expect to score a quick, one punch knockout!"
To other posters, I apologize that this regressed into a little tiff, but it's all I have to say pertaining to it, so we can resume the actual debate!
Here is my exact statement a couple of posts back, yet silky boy felt the need to make up bullshit that no one ever said and then he wonders why I use a word like bullshit when responding to someone like him:
"I don't know if anyone is saying that Hamed was past his prime when he fought Barrera...I certainly don't think he was past his prime at that time...but it is very obvious that he clearly did not properly train for that bout! Had he taken the bout serious and trained in a proper manner I guarantee that it would have been a different fight and possibly one that Hamed would have won, but a fighter cannot go in against a true professional like Barrera and expect to score a quick, one punch knockout!"
To other posters, I apologize that this regressed into a little tiff, but it's all I have to say pertaining to it, so we can resume the actual debate!
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Bladder...go elsewhere...you're not going to turn yet another thread into one of your little flame wars! If you want to talk about the topic with some sense the go right ahead, but if you want to start nonsense then it will just be deleted!!!