This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....
1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice
my top ten greatest British Heavyweights list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
pundit
- Heavyweight
Re: my top ten greatest British Heavyweights list!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry mate but Bugner ahead of LL is silly.silkov wrote:This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....
1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice
The top 5 I'd have
1 Lewis
2 Bruno
3 Bugner
4 Cooper
5 Farr
Fitz I'd have down as a Kiwi.
Re: my top ten greatest British Heavyweights list!!!!!!!!!!!
Silly???..... do you see Bruno going the distance with Ali, Frazier and Lyle???...... do you see Lewis going the distance with them??... the punches Bugner took from Frazier would have koed Lennox imo.... its all opinions but I dont think rating Bugner ahead of Lewis is any sillier than rating Bruno ahead of Bugner!!!.....pundit wrote:Sorry mate but Bugner ahead of LL is silly.silkov wrote:This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....
1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice
The top 5 I'd have
1 Lewis
2 Bruno
3 Bugner
4 Cooper
5 Farr
Fitz I'd have down as a Kiwi.
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
I would have my top 5 as (I leave Fitz out as I think he's better ranked as a light HW):
1) Lennox Lewis
2) Tommy Farr (Very under-rated, most of his losses came when he was still a teenager)
3) Frank Bruno
4) Joe Bugner
5) Len Harvey (he could be higher but my knowledge of Harvey is limited)
Bugner was durable and went the distance vs some great fighters but who did he ever beat again??? At least Bruno has a couple of noteworthy victories.
1) Lennox Lewis
2) Tommy Farr (Very under-rated, most of his losses came when he was still a teenager)
3) Frank Bruno
4) Joe Bugner
5) Len Harvey (he could be higher but my knowledge of Harvey is limited)
Bugner was durable and went the distance vs some great fighters but who did he ever beat again??? At least Bruno has a couple of noteworthy victories.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I do agree that Bugner is underrated by some people. He had good boxing skills and was surprisingly fast on his feet.
He did have a few nice wins and did hold his own against Ali, Frazier, and Lyle. Having said that, Lewis' career was better than of Bugner's. Just going the distance with someone good doesn't automatically mean that you are better than someone else who you don't think would have. Besides, it's very likely that Lewis would have beaten Lyle.
You have to look at their whole careers. Bugner lost to Larry Middleton and even lost a 15 round decision to Jack Bodell. There is no way that Bodell would last 15 rounds with Lewis, much less beat him. Lewis did have some embarrassing moments, but overall his career was better than Bugner's.
You could argue that Bugner was #2, but there is no way that he should be ahead of Lewis (Asssuming you consider Lewis a British fighter).
The rest of the list looks pretty good. You could argue that Bodell or Brian London should be in there.
He did have a few nice wins and did hold his own against Ali, Frazier, and Lyle. Having said that, Lewis' career was better than of Bugner's. Just going the distance with someone good doesn't automatically mean that you are better than someone else who you don't think would have. Besides, it's very likely that Lewis would have beaten Lyle.
You have to look at their whole careers. Bugner lost to Larry Middleton and even lost a 15 round decision to Jack Bodell. There is no way that Bodell would last 15 rounds with Lewis, much less beat him. Lewis did have some embarrassing moments, but overall his career was better than Bugner's.
You could argue that Bugner was #2, but there is no way that he should be ahead of Lewis (Asssuming you consider Lewis a British fighter).
The rest of the list looks pretty good. You could argue that Bodell or Brian London should be in there.
How can you hold it against Bugner that he didnt beat Ali, Frazier or Lyle??..... if you've seen those fights you'll see that he was far more than just durable, he was a very good boxer who gave Ali two very tough fights and came close to beating Frazier and Lyle.... much as I like Bruno I doubt he would have even gone the distance with any of those three, let alone beat them....dempseyfire wrote:I would have my top 5 as (I leave Fitz out as I think he's better ranked as a light HW):
1) Lennox Lewis
2) Tommy Farr (Very under-rated, most of his losses came when he was still a teenager)
3) Frank Bruno
4) Joe Bugner
5) Len Harvey (he could be higher but my knowledge of Harvey is limited)
Bugner was durable and went the distance vs some great fighters but who did he ever beat again??? At least Bruno has a couple of noteworthy victories.
I've seen both Lewis and Bugner fight live. To say that Lewis is a slam dunk over Bugner is to fall prey to what I think goes on here all the time. Let's call it the "Mythology of Championship status".
It is very likely that Joe could outpoint Lennox. Very likely indeed. This would be no sure thing at all.
It is very likely that Joe could outpoint Lennox. Very likely indeed. This would be no sure thing at all.
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
I'm not holding that against him, I'm holding it against him that he failed to win any truly significant fights in his career at all!!! Just being able to be competetive and last the distance does not a great fighter make, it's the ability to show some results. Bugner had great natural ability but often was so lethargic in the ring it made you want to kick the TV set. Bugner probably had the TOOLS to beat Lennox (his handspeed would give Lewis fits, and he'd be able to take Lewis's punches) but he'd be content to lose a close decision, as he did to all the other top fighters he faced.silkov wrote:How can you hold it against Bugner that he didnt beat Ali, Frazier or Lyle??..... if you've seen those fights you'll see that he was far more than just durable, he was a very good boxer who gave Ali two very tough fights and came close to beating Frazier and Lyle.... much as I like Bruno I doubt he would have even gone the distance with any of those three, let alone beat them....dempseyfire wrote:I would have my top 5 as (I leave Fitz out as I think he's better ranked as a light HW):
1) Lennox Lewis
2) Tommy Farr (Very under-rated, most of his losses came when he was still a teenager)
3) Frank Bruno
4) Joe Bugner
5) Len Harvey (he could be higher but my knowledge of Harvey is limited)
Bugner was durable and went the distance vs some great fighters but who did he ever beat again??? At least Bruno has a couple of noteworthy victories.
At his best he didnt fight like he was content to lose, I'm talking about the Bugner of the 70s not the guy who was around in the 80s.... having said that though you're forgetting his wins over Page, Tillis and Bey in the mid-late 80s when he was in his late 30s.... hardly bad wins for an older guy...dempseyfire wrote:I'm not holding that against him, I'm holding it against him that he failed to win any truly significant fights in his career at all!!! Just being able to be competetive and last the distance does not a great fighter make, it's the ability to show some results. Bugner had great natural ability but often was so lethargic in the ring it made you want to kick the TV set. Bugner probably had the TOOLS to beat Lennox (his handspeed would give Lewis fits, and he'd be able to take Lewis's punches) but he'd be content to lose a close decision, as he did to all the other top fighters he faced.silkov wrote:How can you hold it against Bugner that he didnt beat Ali, Frazier or Lyle??..... if you've seen those fights you'll see that he was far more than just durable, he was a very good boxer who gave Ali two very tough fights and came close to beating Frazier and Lyle.... much as I like Bruno I doubt he would have even gone the distance with any of those three, let alone beat them....dempseyfire wrote:I would have my top 5 as (I leave Fitz out as I think he's better ranked as a light HW):
1) Lennox Lewis
2) Tommy Farr (Very under-rated, most of his losses came when he was still a teenager)
3) Frank Bruno
4) Joe Bugner
5) Len Harvey (he could be higher but my knowledge of Harvey is limited)
Bugner was durable and went the distance vs some great fighters but who did he ever beat again??? At least Bruno has a couple of noteworthy victories.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I agree that Lewis has to be ahead of Bugner, but you could make a strong case for Bugner at #2.
A lot depends on how you look at things.
If you want to criticize Bugner, you could say that he doesn't really have a real impressive win in whole career. You can point out the losses to Middleton and Bodell, as well as the controversial decison against Cooper.
However, if you want to support him you can say that:
He held his own against Ali, gave Frazier a tough fight, and came very close to beating Lyle.
He also beat Cooper,Ellis,Mac Foster and Page in his career.
Of course one can pick a part each one of these victoires as not being that impressive. None of these guys were at their best at the time, but these wins have to count for something.
And as mentioned by Silkov, when Bugner was well past it, he scored some respectable wins over Tillis,Bey and even Page.
Bruno and Farr had their moments, but also had some bad performances as well.
Actually, Harvey really shouldn't considered a heavyweight. The only heavyweight of note that Harvey beat was Gains and he certainly wasn't close to his prime when Harvey beat him.
A lot depends on how you look at things.
If you want to criticize Bugner, you could say that he doesn't really have a real impressive win in whole career. You can point out the losses to Middleton and Bodell, as well as the controversial decison against Cooper.
However, if you want to support him you can say that:
He held his own against Ali, gave Frazier a tough fight, and came very close to beating Lyle.
He also beat Cooper,Ellis,Mac Foster and Page in his career.
Of course one can pick a part each one of these victoires as not being that impressive. None of these guys were at their best at the time, but these wins have to count for something.
And as mentioned by Silkov, when Bugner was well past it, he scored some respectable wins over Tillis,Bey and even Page.
Bruno and Farr had their moments, but also had some bad performances as well.
Actually, Harvey really shouldn't considered a heavyweight. The only heavyweight of note that Harvey beat was Gains and he certainly wasn't close to his prime when Harvey beat him.
-
Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
But he lost all those fights. And it's not like he was beating all of the other cotenders but only losing to the creme de la creme a la Quarry. He was losing to the fringe contenders/journeyman as well. And his close fight vs Lyle was when Lyle was 35 and already slipping a good deal.silkov wrote:Unless you've seen him in some of his 70s fights then you havent seen him at his best, the guy who had two close fights with Ali and almost beat Frazier was a long way removed from the guy who lost to Bruno and Marvis Frazier....Mr Gunn wrote:seen a few of his fights,not a great deal tho...
And you can't say Bugner looked good in the Ali rematch . . that fight was dreadful. The first Ali fight was better and Joe had his moments but it wasn't some epic battle. I would say one real good performance, the Frazier fight, and Joe probably couldv'e finished him after he knocked him down as Bugner turned and Frazier being the class guy he was let him take a knee.
re
>>>How can you hold it against Bugner that he didnt beat Ali, Frazier or Lyle??<<<
Going the distance with greats means little except that a fighter can take a pretty solid beating. Now had Bugner won some of those bouts then I would have him higher, but it's hard for anyone to not have Lewis on top...and I'm no fan at all of Lewis, but he was probably the best British heavyweight in history. I'll sit down and try to put my list together. I'd certainly have Bugner on the list, but number one...he just did not win any big fights to be placed so high and though Lewis certainly has his flaws...he did win some big fights and did beat a slew of quality heavyweights!
Going the distance with greats means little except that a fighter can take a pretty solid beating. Now had Bugner won some of those bouts then I would have him higher, but it's hard for anyone to not have Lewis on top...and I'm no fan at all of Lewis, but he was probably the best British heavyweight in history. I'll sit down and try to put my list together. I'd certainly have Bugner on the list, but number one...he just did not win any big fights to be placed so high and though Lewis certainly has his flaws...he did win some big fights and did beat a slew of quality heavyweights!
-
Mr Gunn
- Heavyweight
I only seen the bey,tillis,bruno&welch fights so maybe i know too little to comment.... did Bugner really get a gift decision against Cooper coz ive never seen the fight????silkov wrote:Unless you've seen him in some of his 70s fights then you havent seen him at his best, the guy who had two close fights with Ali and almost beat Frazier was a long way removed from the guy who lost to Bruno and Marvis Frazier....Mr Gunn wrote:seen a few of his fights,not a great deal tho...
Bugner had the style to give Lewis a very good fight but Lewis is far and away the best British heavy ever. Lewis was a top 4 fighter for the best part of 12 years, albeit in a weaker era. Lewis would not have lost to Bodell or Middleton. The Bugner between Ali I and II is probably the second best on the list but he simply didn't win enough big matches to be considered the best.
He was never prepared to go the extra mile to get the win, he should've beaten Lyle and he wasn't far off against Frazier and I speak as a Bugner fan. It was a shame Horace Notice didn't get a chance to see his career through, though he was smallish he had good skills and was very solid.
He was never prepared to go the extra mile to get the win, he should've beaten Lyle and he wasn't far off against Frazier and I speak as a Bugner fan. It was a shame Horace Notice didn't get a chance to see his career through, though he was smallish he had good skills and was very solid.
-
Mr Gunn
- Heavyweight