IBRAGIMOV ODDS LOOK GOOD

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 14 Oct 2007, 11:52

Autobarn wrote:if this is all you can offer, clear off & stop polluting this thread, LOL

I can actually respect others opinions and don't act oversensitive when disagreeing with others.

Terry D was fair and didn't resort to any accusations like you have.

You are like alot of boxing fans oversensitive and Insecure.

I have polluted a thing, I have discussed with Terry why I ain't as fond with Holy like alot are.

I asked you to prove your accusation and come up with that.

I am afraid I have Lacy'ed you Autobarn. 8)

Matt W · Post by **Matt W** » 14 Oct 2007, 11:58

Saying Holyfield is overrated is ridiculous. No need to add any more than that...

He should however be long retired. Last night's result was one of the most predictable this year. What will it take for him to retire????

And when was the last time he said a sentence that didn't contain the word 'adjustment'?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 14 Oct 2007, 12:15

What will it take for him to retire????

An athletic commission reinstating his ban maybe.

Thing Is though He managed to stay competitive against a weak champ so they'll probably let him carry on.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 14 Oct 2007, 12:44

Terry D wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
Terry D wrote: That is the biggest load of nonsense. Did you ever watch him as a Cruiserweight? If you cannot see what made him Commander Evander you never will and there is no point trying to convince you how good he once was, pre-2004 of course.
No I watched him as a Heavyweight where he was overrated because he had heart.

Plus wasn't he on a steroid scandal list as well? Don't you think that could of made him Commander Evander?
No. I think his left hook on the inside helped. As did his ability to absorb pressure, ability to negate the other guy, step-back and bounce forward, underrated pop, strong chin, good conditioning, ring awareness, tactical ability, will to win, combination punching and balance helped him.

His heart did not beat Mike Tyson twice, his tactical ability did. He broke Tyson down then hammered him with combinations. He also negated the reach of Bowe, somewhat messily, in the rematch and won that fight with tactics and pressure. He also came back from a tough first fight with Lewis and raised his inside and pressure game to push Lewis close when, in reality, he had no right to do so.

Steroids do not teach you how to box.

I think you've watched Holyfield but you've never seen him.

Holyfield is one of the greatest fighters that ever lived.

Know the sport, know Evander is a Legend.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 15 Oct 2007, 13:54

Holyfield overrated? Haha, I've heard it all now.

Max stop posting on this thread ffs, quite while you're behind! ;)

EddieShredder · Post by **EddieShredder** » 15 Oct 2007, 13:59

I watched the HBO Legendary Nights episode on the Holyfield Bowe trilogy again recently, great stuff, great trilogy

I'd like to see Holyfield well retired by now, but in his prime the man was a legend, and all time great HW.

Matt W · Post by **Matt W** » 15 Oct 2007, 14:36

If he is so overrated then why was he underdog in so many of his biggest fights???

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 15 Oct 2007, 16:05

nickd wrote:Holyfield overrated? Haha, I've heard it all now.

Max stop posting on this thread ffs, quite while you're behind! ;)

I'll post whenever I like thank you. :P

I don't have to think highly of someone either just because everyone else does.

If he is so overrated then why was he underdog in so many of his biggest fights???

Because people made him the underdog.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 15 Oct 2007, 16:07

Well you're in the minority of one thinking a prime Holyfield was overrated - was does that tell you?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 15 Oct 2007, 16:11

Tells me that where not all the same.

Just because the majority think something else doesn't make the minority wrong either.

I didn't say he was bad either. Great fighters are 2 belt world champs.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 15 Oct 2007, 16:12

Keep digging! ;)

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 15 Oct 2007, 16:13

Got my shovel ready.

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 15 Oct 2007, 17:48

Max Molyneux wrote:Got my shovel ready.

After all those posts on Holyfield I'll not tell you what to Shovel

Sorry, could not help that "dig"

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Oct 2007, 17:49

Max Molyneux wrote:
nickd wrote:Holyfield overrated? Haha, I've heard it all now.

Max stop posting on this thread ffs, quite while you're behind! ;)
I'll post whenever I like thank you. :P

I don't have to think highly of someone either just because everyone else does.

If he is so overrated then why was he underdog in so many of his biggest fights???
Because people made him the underdog.

So they by definition, he was hardly overrated was he. If he was underdog for most of his biggest fights, then by definition he must have been underrated?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:01

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
nickd wrote:Holyfield overrated? Haha, I've heard it all now.

Max stop posting on this thread ffs, quite while you're behind! ;)
I'll post whenever I like thank you. :P

I don't have to think highly of someone either just because everyone else does.

If he is so overrated then why was he underdog in so many of his biggest fights???
Because people made him the underdog.
So they by definition, he was hardly overrated was he. If he was underdog for most of his biggest fights, then by definition he must have been underrated?

Yes.

Just personally I think he was a little.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:21

Therefore you made him a big favourite in those fights at the time?

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:27

Nobody gave Holyfield a hope in hell in the first Tyson fight and he fought an outstanding fight to bully and stop Tyson. And he was past his best by that stage. Overrated my arse.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:37

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Therefore you made him a big favourite in those fights at the time?

At the time I was like 11 when Holy fought Tyson and wasn't a boxing fan.

Tyson's comeback sounded staged though so Holy shouldn't of been that much of an underdog. A little bit yeah but not a huge.

Holy gets away with too much headbutting too, look at Rahman's face afterwards!

Liked his fights though since I am a fan of Heavyweights even though there not as good lately.

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:53

Max Molyneux wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Therefore you made him a big favourite in those fights at the time?
At the time I was like 11 when Holy fought Tyson and wasn't a boxing fan.

Tyson's comeback sounded staged though so Holy shouldn't of been that much of an underdog. A little bit yeah but not a huge.

Holy gets away with too much headbutting too, look at Rahman's face afterwards!

Liked his fights though since I am a fan of Heavyweights even though there not as good lately.

When the fight with Tyson was made against Holyfield, the win was so big because at the time Holyfield's health was an issue I think after the 3rd Bowe fight Holyfield had a heart problem. Maybe someone elses mind will remember better. After getting stopped by Bowe he fought Czyz and then in with Tyson. Even though Tyson may have not been the fearsome fighter of the 80's, the version of Holyfield going into the ring against Tyson was a huge underdog and there was fear for Holyfields health. So to have knocked out Mike Tyson with all these factors this makes the win as great as it was so in fact it was a huge upset for Holyfield who was a massive underdog.

For Holyfield to have been wrote off after the 3rd Bowe fight to have done what he did post Bowe 3, not only being stopped in that fight but health issues, this is all part of the make up of a great fighter, because he came back from these defeats to have achieved more than many could in their whole careers.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 15 Oct 2007, 19:00

It was actually after the Moorer first fight when Holyfield had the health issues which "forced" a temporary retirment. He came back looked, okay buy not outstanding, vs a surprisingly "up for it" Ray Mercer, then lost to Bowe and looked lethargic vs Bobby Cryz.

Tyson on the other hand looked as good as he had done since 1989 beating Bruno.

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 15 Oct 2007, 19:08

stujones wrote:It was actually after the Moorer first fight when Holyfield had the health issues which "forced" a temporary retirment. He came back looked, okay buy not outstanding, vs a surprisingly "up for it" Ray Mercer, then lost to Bowe and looked lethargic vs Bobby Cryz.

Tyson on the other hand looked as good as he had done since 1989 beating Bruno.

Thanks Stu, yes its coming back to me now. I remember there was stiff tests though to licence him to fight against Tyson because of the heart problem after the Moorer fight. Also he did look flat after that and this was seen as an easy fight for Tyson at the time and Holyfield was seen by many to be in danger taking it.

I remember the shock value watching that fight live when he took Tyson apart

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Oct 2007, 19:18

There was talk that he had a hole in the heart after the Moorer fight, which prevented him fighting properly. This later 'cleared up' after prayer healing according to holyfield.

I wonder whether steroid use was the cause of the strange dissipation of his work rate in the Moorer fight and in the 3rd Bowe fight, he seemed to lack any stamina whatsoever in those two fights.

Later, Holyfield claimed it was shoulder injury, but then why not mention it at the time, if that was the case?

As for Tyson's comeback being staged, whilst there were a few doubts over whether he was as good as he was before jail, he still looked very impressive in his comeback, whilst Holyfield looked like he was 50 in the ring. Most people thought that Holyfield was in danger of being killed he looked so bad against Moorer, Bowe, and Czyz, despite almost knocking Bowe out, he was rooted like a statue to the canvas, unable to do anything at all, it was one of the weirdest fights I've ever seen, Bowe was nailed in the corner of the ring, on completely rubber legs, and Holyfield was totally unable to do anything about it, the two of them stood there doing virtually nothing for almost a minute. One more shot, and Bowe would have been in sleepyville, but Holyfield just had nothing in the tank.

I could have got 25-1 on Holyfield at Ladbrokes, and almost put 20 quid on when I saw the odds, how I wish I had!

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Oct 2007, 04:36

jamesmcdonnell wrote:There was talk that he had a hole in the heart after the Moorer fight, which prevented him fighting properly. This later 'cleared up' after prayer healing according to holyfield.

I wonder whether steroid use was the cause of the strange dissipation of his work rate in the Moorer fight and in the 3rd Bowe fight, he seemed to lack any stamina whatsoever in those two fights.
Later, Holyfield claimed it was shoulder injury, but then why not mention it at the time, if that was the case?

As for Tyson's comeback being staged, whilst there were a few doubts over whether he was as good as he was before jail, he still looked very impressive in his comeback, whilst Holyfield looked like he was 50 in the ring. Most people thought that Holyfield was in danger of being killed he looked so bad against Moorer, Bowe, and Czyz, despite almost knocking Bowe out, he was rooted like a statue to the canvas, unable to do anything at all, it was one of the weirdest fights I've ever seen, Bowe was nailed in the corner of the ring, on completely rubber legs, and Holyfield was totally unable to do anything about it, the two of them stood there doing virtually nothing for almost a minute. One more shot, and Bowe would have been in sleepyville, but Holyfield just had nothing in the tank.

I could have got 25-1 on Holyfield at Ladbrokes, and almost put 20 quid on when I saw the odds, how I wish I had!

I think this could well be the case. I just hope that the improvements in form were not down to steroid use.

We've seen Mosley have the same peaks followed by dips into lethargy and his name too was found on a steroid list.

Re Holy-Moorer 1, I watched this last night and was shocked at how bad Evander was. He definitely hurt his shoulder during the excellent 2nd Bowe fight. If the shoulder was still an issue it will have been exacerbated by southpaw Moorer. As well as Holy's injury and listlessness, his trainer Don Turner was incompetent that night. He said pre fight that it would be easy, that fighting a southpaw would be no issue. In addition the cutman had been sacked, and Turner had to tend to cuts AND give (shitty) advice. I'm surprised Turner ever got kept on.

I think Holy could be a borderline case. Maybe he used steroids during training and flushed 'em out well before certain fights.

Matt W · Post by **Matt W** » 16 Oct 2007, 13:40

jamesmcdonnell wrote:As for Tyson's comeback being staged, whilst there were a few doubts over whether he was as good as he was before jail, he still looked very impressive in his comeback,

I think he only looked good against Bruno. You couldn't really judge against McNeeley, he looked terrible againt Mathis up to the finish - no timing whatsoever - and he didn't have to do anything except look at Seldon, who after the fight just kept saying 'I wasn't scared, I danced on my way to the ring', when in actual fact during the ref's instruction he looked as though he was dropping a brick.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 16 Oct 2007, 16:00

And Bruno looked like he was walking the green mile on his way to the ring!