OVERHYPED AUSTRALIANS

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 15 Oct 2007, 08:57

everytime i watch a fight night on fox or even a main event that green or mundine card it is full of aussies who are being hailed as the greatest thing as sliced bread why cant the commontator settle down and realise many of the fighters that we turn out will not be world champions like the way they go on about and if they do realize this stop treating us like idiots
who are the most overhyped fighters in australia in your opininion?

tigerus · Post by **tigerus** » 15 Oct 2007, 10:15

None of our heavyweights would be close to world champions at present time. So, when you hear commentators say how good, Mason, Hopoate, Haumono, Wilson and Mirovic (Although the last two have done great things for Australian boxing) are you know they are just filling air space to keep the viewer watching.

Bushboy · Post by **Bushboy** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:49

id say shannan taylor would have to be right up there.. although its mostly self promotion, no1 else really raves about him haha..
when he was promoting a fightnight in wagga with him being the main event against some thai called "thirteen coins" he was interviewed by the local paper and said that the fight was similar to a world title eliminator and that it would propel him up to top 5 to fight cory spinks or arthur abraham... needless to say the thai looked like he would have been better as a welterweight than a middleweight and shannan ko'd him.. pointless really

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » 15 Oct 2007, 18:51

I definitely see where you are coming from and the commentators here are truly rubbish but it is their job to talk up the fight and the fighters. Do you really think they're going to sit there and say "look at this bloke he could have some decent wins against scubs and then get shown up when he steps up the comp..."

Yeah they go over the top but what else are they going to do?

tigerus · Post by **tigerus** » 15 Oct 2007, 20:05

Exactly, if they didn't hype, people wouldn't watch.

toppity · Post by **toppity** » 15 Oct 2007, 21:05

Slightly off topic, but as far as commentators/analysis goes I have always like Barry Michael. He used to be part of a weekly radio show in Melbourne on the local sports radio station. The show has finished now (unfortunately) but he used to call a spade a spade.

tigerus · Post by **tigerus** » 15 Oct 2007, 23:17

He pretty good on Main Event fights as well. He's not afraid to say it as he sees it.

molly · Post by **molly** » 16 Oct 2007, 00:36

Barry Michael a good comentator

i've really heard it all now...lol
The guy can't call one card without referring to his own career within 1min of the telecast starting.
I will agree his boxing show was good on sen but as for his fight calling abilities he's a shocker.
Foxtel and main event should employ Briggs as a commentator when he's not fighting because he really knows his stuff

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 16 Oct 2007, 07:16

Almost all Aussie boxers are overrated in Australia. I'm not hating, because it is natural you support your own, but sometimes fans and critics alike go over the top. It is unfortunate but a FACT that there are and have been very few world class Aussie boxers. Perhaps this is why anyone half-decent gets so hyped.

There is no good reason why Australians can't do well at boxing. Sure, it's a relatively isolated nation, but that doesn't harm it in other sports.

For whatever reason, it's just not popular enough in the mainstream. When something is popular, it gets more investment, which creates a higher standard. But Australian boxing is in a catch-22 situation - it won't become more popular unless it is shown on terrestrial TV and given better newspaper coverage, but the newspapers and TV stations don't want to cover it because it's not popular enough.

Anyway, I digress. To answer the question: Michael Katsidis.

Controversial choice, maybe, and I am a fan, but I've heard Aussie fans talking about him beating the cream of the division, when all I've seen is a one-dimensional slugger who leads with his face, gets cut to ribbons, gets knocked down and had life and death against domestic-level guys in his last two fights. Sure, fantastic to watch and I'll be cheering him all the way, but he is a LONG way short of real world class.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 16 Oct 2007, 08:25

oliverfennell wrote:Almost all Aussie boxers are overrated in Australia. I'm not hating, because it is natural you support your own, but sometimes fans and critics alike go over the top. It is unfortunate but a FACT that there are and have been very few world class Aussie boxers. Perhaps this is why anyone half-decent gets so hyped.

There is no good reason why Australians can't do well at boxing. Sure, it's a relatively isolated nation, but that doesn't harm it in other sports.

For whatever reason, it's just not popular enough in the mainstream. When something is popular, it gets more investment, which creates a higher standard. But Australian boxing is in a catch-22 situation - it won't become more popular unless it is shown on terrestrial TV and given better newspaper coverage, but the newspapers and TV stations don't want to cover it because it's not popular enough.

Anyway, I digress. To answer the question: Michael Katsidis.

Controversial choice, maybe, and I am a fan, but I've heard Aussie fans talking about him beating the cream of the division, when all I've seen is a one-dimensional slugger who leads with his face, gets cut to ribbons, gets knocked down and had life and death against domestic-level guys in his last two fights. Sure, fantastic to watch and I'll be cheering him all the way, but he is a LONG way short of real world class.

I disagree about Katsidis, Earl landed a lucky punch Katsidis has faced far bigger hitters than Earl and didnt get wobbled at all. Maybe the distraction of the towel getting thrown in was the reason? Katsidis was hardley in a life and death struggle with Omensot, He almost killed him and apart from a badly cut eye absolutly dominated the fight. He is at least top 5 in the 135 division at the moment and is hardly overrated.

Guys like Vappa and Dib are overrated but no more than fighters from every country that has boxers including England and the US

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 16 Oct 2007, 08:38

Truth be told there have always been relatively few Aussie fighters that were truly world class

I remember some of the prospects that we've had over the years and how it was always a worry when they were matched against top overseas fighters. Especially against top American fighters

Does anyone remember Pat Leglise being flattened by ex titlist Choo Choo Brown about 20 years ago? Pat was all pumped up until Brown started landing. The end was very ugly indeed

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 16 Oct 2007, 09:31

bollox wrote:Truth be told there have always been relatively few Aussie fighters that were truly world class

I remember some of the prospects that we've had over the years and how it was always a worry when they were matched against top overseas fighters. Especially against top American fighters

Does anyone remember Pat Leglise being flattened by ex titlist Choo Choo Brown about 20 years ago? Pat was all pumped up until Brown started landing. The end was very ugly indeed

Sounds like what happened with Oganov ^^

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 16 Oct 2007, 20:28

How do you define World Class? Katsidis is rated in the top ten of one of the most heavily populated divisions there is. Meehan recently KOed Williamson, widely regarded as a "gatekeeper" for heavyweights. Tszyu beat all bar one of the US fighters he fought. Anthony Mundine is recognised as a champion. For a country of 20 million we are not doing too badly.

toppity · Post by **toppity** » 16 Oct 2007, 21:08

I would define worldclass (not "champion") as top 20 in Boxrec or Ring magazine lists. Top 20 in an individual sport makes you worldclass. It is close to the equivalent of making the semi finals in the 100m at the olympics (16 semi-finalists). You would consider those runners all to be world class, so top 20 is close enough for me.
Australia currently has the following in these lists-
Danny Green, Paul Briggs
Anthony Mundine, Sakio Bika, Sam Soliman
Daniel Geale
Rock Dawson
Lovemore N'dou
Mike Katsidis
Gary StClair
Vic Darchinian (although he is listed as Armenian)
Debate will always rage over lists, but until true unification ever happens then there has to be some point of reference.
Not a bad number if you ask me.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 Oct 2007, 04:27

Brute wrote:How do you define World Class? Katsidis is rated in the top ten of one of the most heavily populated divisions there is. Meehan recently KOed Williamson, widely regarded as a "gatekeeper" for heavyweights. Tszyu beat all bar one of the US fighters he fought. Anthony Mundine is recognised as a champion. For a country of 20 million we are not doing too badly.

It is hard to define. Some divisions might struggle to put together a decent top 10, while others will be strong through 30 or 40.

I think as a basic guideline, it would be hard to argue against somebody being world class if they've won or fought for a Big 4 title. But then we have the likes of Bobby Gunn to mess it up.

As for Katsidis... he's only an "interim" champ, so the jury's still out on the above. I say on a SKILL level, he isn't world class. And then, on an opposition level, he hasn't proved it yet, either, regardless of what the rankings say. Earl and Amonsot are NOT world class. Maybe Earl could be described most generously as a FRINGE contender, but barely. Amonsot was a total unknown. Neither were genuine top 10 guys; that is beyond dispute.

So, sorry guys - again, I'm a Katsidis fan, but he just hasn't proved he's world class to me. And so, as long as he's billed as a "world champion" ot top 10 fighter, he's overrated.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 17 Oct 2007, 06:09

oliverfennell wrote:
Brute wrote:How do you define World Class? Katsidis is rated in the top ten of one of the most heavily populated divisions there is. Meehan recently KOed Williamson, widely regarded as a "gatekeeper" for heavyweights. Tszyu beat all bar one of the US fighters he fought. Anthony Mundine is recognised as a champion. For a country of 20 million we are not doing too badly.
It is hard to define. Some divisions might struggle to put together a decent top 10, while others will be strong through 30 or 40.

I think as a basic guideline, it would be hard to argue against somebody being world class if they've won or fought for a Big 4 title. But then we have the likes of Bobby Gunn to mess it up.

As for Katsidis... he's only an "interim" champ, so the jury's still out on the above. I say on a SKILL level, he isn't world class. And then, on an opposition level, he hasn't proved it yet, either, regardless of what the rankings say. Earl and Amonsot are NOT world class. Maybe Earl could be described most generously as a FRINGE contender, but barely. Amonsot was a total unknown. Neither were genuine top 10 guys; that is beyond dispute.

So, sorry guys - again, I'm a Katsidis fan, but he just hasn't proved he's world class to me. And so, as long as he's billed as a "world champion" ot top 10 fighter, he's overrated.

How do you describe World class then, Do you only count guys like DeLaHoya or Hatton?
In the 135 pound division there are only about 4-5 guys in front of Katsidis so im interested in how you define it.

convict · Post by **convict** » 17 Oct 2007, 06:21

This topic really isnt going anywhere.

Manny Pac was a "no-one" untill he beat-up on MAB, Pacman is World Class not for hes skill but for hes brawling and attacking methord.
Kasidis hasnt had the chance to take on anyone in the Top 5.

WorldClass fighters to me is a brand name like NIKE, Its the NAME u beat that gets u the states of being W/Class.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 17 Oct 2007, 08:37

convict wrote:This topic really isnt going anywhere.

Manny Pac was a "no-one" untill he beat-up on MAB, Pacman is World Class not for hes skill but for hes brawling and attacking methord.
Kasidis hasnt had the chance to take on anyone in the Top 5.

WorldClass fighters to me is a brand name like NIKE, Its the NAME u beat that gets u the states of being W/Class.

Precisely. OK, so maybe I'm being too harsh to say Katsidis isn't there on a skill level. Aggression, tenacity and power are just as valid as technical skills in this sport. But you echoed my point by saying the NAMES you beat define your status. Katsidis hasn't yet beaten a TRULY world class name, but people are talking as if he's a world beater already. Until he beats a Guzman (to use an obvious example) or equivalent, he will remain overrated for me. If and when he does beat someone like that, I'll give him full credit.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 18 Oct 2007, 02:07

This is somewhat unfair. Often fighters do not advance because promoters are reluctant to match their meal tickets against big hitters for fear of them losing rankings. Before Kostya Tszyu fought Hatton he called out every leading Super Lightweight in North America but their promoters did not want to know him. WBA promoters do not like WBC champions on their cards and vice versa. The Alphabet Wars have made boxing very political.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 18 Oct 2007, 04:07

Brute wrote:This is somewhat unfair. Often fighters do not advance because promoters are reluctant to match their meal tickets against big hitters for fear of them losing rankings. Before Kostya Tszyu fought Hatton he called out every leading Super Lightweight in North America but their promoters did not want to know him. WBA promoters do not like WBC champions on their cards and vice versa. The Alphabet Wars have made boxing very political.

In Australia, it must be IBO promoters not liking WBF champions, etc...

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 18 Oct 2007, 04:29

oliverfennell wrote:
Brute wrote:This is somewhat unfair. Often fighters do not advance because promoters are reluctant to match their meal tickets against big hitters for fear of them losing rankings. Before Kostya Tszyu fought Hatton he called out every leading Super Lightweight in North America but their promoters did not want to know him. WBA promoters do not like WBC champions on their cards and vice versa. The Alphabet Wars have made boxing very political.
In Australia, it must be IBO promoters not liking WBF champions, etc...

Mundine holds a WBA title. Darchinian was IBF Champion. Have a look at the records of US fighters and see how many Neville Nobody titles they have over there, OliverHardy. :x

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 18 Oct 2007, 05:45

Brute wrote:
oliverfennell wrote:
Brute wrote:This is somewhat unfair. Often fighters do not advance because promoters are reluctant to match their meal tickets against big hitters for fear of them losing rankings. Before Kostya Tszyu fought Hatton he called out every leading Super Lightweight in North America but their promoters did not want to know him. WBA promoters do not like WBC champions on their cards and vice versa. The Alphabet Wars have made boxing very political.
In Australia, it must be IBO promoters not liking WBF champions, etc...
Mundine holds a WBA title. Darchinian was IBF Champion. Have a look at the records of US fighters and see how many Neville Nobody titles they have over there, OliverHardy. :x

Come on, you have to admit Aussie promoters are rather fond of the IBO and WBF.

I'm not denying those who have won genuine belts, but the presence of the IBO and in particular the WBF has to be of concern to real Aussie fans, as these belts are pushed as "world championships", and how should Joe Public know any different? You and I know Shannan Taylor, Bob Mirovic etc are not world-beaters, and yet they are frequently in "world title" fights. If somebody tunes in or turns up because they are under the impression they're going to see a world championship fight, they're going to be disappointed, aren't they? And that's bad for the sport.

And sure there are bogus belts being passed around in the US and elsewhere, but I'd wager that they have a greater presence PER CAPITA in Australia than most nations.

convict · Post by **convict** » 18 Oct 2007, 06:55

I see your point but its still worthless.
Katsidis has got himself a name buy beating 1 guy in the US (already had a name here in AUS) And that is somthing u cant buy.

Also whats the point of this subject? -
Its not who u beat- but how u beat them?
A nobody KOing a Somebody? Manny Vs MAB.
Its not who u lost to - but how u lost?
Hussy Vs Arce 1? =people wanted more of the same?

J/Taylor was over-rated then after Pavlik KO,ed him - Now people say he was under-rate and would beat anyone at a higher divison?

Again i get your point but u tend to push towards a subject that should be "Who is over hyped".

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 18 Oct 2007, 07:17

American fans were all over Jeff Lacey until Calzaghe beat him, then they decided he was a bum.

You can't win, 8)

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 18 Oct 2007, 07:39

Brute wrote:American fans were all over Jeff Lacey until Calzaghe beat him, then they decided he was a bum.

You can't win, 8)

A common scenario. Tszyu was always well-received by the US, though.