Frazier's pain and anger still remains...

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abosworth
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Frazier's pain and anger still remains...

Post by abosworth »

Frazier is still haunted not by losing two out of three fights with Ali, but the relentless insults that he hit him with over the years. It affected not only him but his whole family. Good read IMO.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing ... id=3065738
Frazier's pain, anger remains years after trilogy

By Ron Borges
Special to ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: October 16, 2007

Joe Frazier reflects on his life and boxing

Joe Frazier hasn't fought Muhammad Ali in 32 years but he spars with him every day.

They are both old men now, broken by difficult lives and too many years spent fighting for their paychecks. They have paid dearly for the prizes they won with the biggest price extracted from each by the other.

Although both would be diminished as fighters if they had never crossed paths, for Frazier neither time nor shared infirmities have softened his heart. He always has been a hard man and there is no harder place inside him than the spot still occupied by Ali. It's a large spot where the bruises remain even after all these years.

That's why there was always only one picture of boxing's greatest legend hanging in Frazier's Gym at 2917 North Broad St. in a rundown section of Philadelphia that few tourists visit. It was the one of Ali flat on his back, Frazier standing over him with both pain and triumph on his face.

That's how Frazier wants to be remembered -- in that moment after he sent Ali to the floor in Round 15, the final round of the first fight of their tragic trilogy. The rest he'd just as soon forget. Or rewrite.

Ali taunted and tortured Frazier outside the ring far more than he did inside it, and he did a lot of damage inside it to Frazier. He marginalized him in a way no one else could have, not only demeaning and ridiculing him but also transforming him into something he was not. The latter has been, it seems, what Smokin' Joe has never been able to forget. Or forgive.

At times there have been words of reconciliation between the two. But anyone who watched one night in Las Vegas a few years ago as George Foreman and Larry Holmes quietly took turns keeping themselves between an ever-pacing Frazier and his old and infirm nemesis, Ali, at a function called to celebrate them and heavyweight boxing's greatest living champions, understood that the river of darkness ran deep inside Frazier. And the candle still burned hot.

He'd made that clear in 1996 at the Olympics in Atlanta when he was beside himself after learning Ali would be lighting the Olympic flame. Once it was done he told a small gaggle of reporters, "I should have been picked. I wish Ali had fallen into [the flame]. If I had the chance, I'd have pushed him in."

That same week, Frazier was signing autographs along with a group of other top American Olympians selected by the United States Olympic Committee as among the best the country had ever produced. A woman and her young son approached and asked Frazier what medal he'd won. When he told her "boxing," she asked if he'd ever fought Ali. That's when the dark clouds began to brew.

He said he had and she asked if he'd beaten him. He said he did but such is the depth of his feelings on the subject of Ali that he could not stop there. He suggested she look at the physically broken man Ali is today and understand who made him that way.

Muhaammad Ali and Joe Frazier

John Shearer/Time & Life Pictures/Getty Images

Muhammad Ali, left, may have won the mental battle prior to his fight with Joe Frazier in 1971, but Frazier beat Ali in the ring.
That is a theme Frazier has visited many times, including in the late Mark Kram's powerful book on the two entitled "Ghosts of Manila." Kram eloquently described what Ali means to Frazier when he wrote, "Nearly the end of the century and Muhammad Ali still swims inside of Joe Frazier like a determined bacillus … at times his contempt [for Ali] just lay there hissing."

A bacillus, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is a chain of bacteria. Who but Frazier would think of Ali in that way? Who but a man still deeply stung by the insults Ali threw at him so long ago, back in 1970, 1974 and 1975, could feel such hatred more than 30 years since either raised his hand to the other?

Kram also tells of Frazier claiming he'd made Ali what he is today. When the old writer asked the old fighter if he was referring to his old opponent's long battle with Parkinson's, Frazier snapped, "I made him what he is. Take it any way you want."

It's been said that Frazier has diminished both himself and his selling power by his very public hatred of his old and now revered rival. While the latter might be true the former is not. Not, at least, if one understands things from Frazier's point of view.

Ali has always said when he called Frazier a "gorilla" and when he portrayed him as an ignorant tool and, worse, "an Uncle Tom," it was all just to sell tickets. Just a marketing scheme, he has said many times. A joke. But Frazier knows what the world long ago forgot. He knows the truth.

There was no marketing scheme necessary when they first fought at Madison Square Garden in 1970. Ali, not long removed from the unfair exile imposed upon him by a government afraid of his politics and his growing social power, was a giant. He was far larger than the sport. Frazier, meanwhile, was the recognized, undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, a pain machine feared by everyone. When they met, it was not a fight. It was a social and societal event, a watershed moment. It needed no more hype.

While they were different fighters in 1974 and 1975 and their skills had begun to slip, their legend had only grown, as had their symbiotic relationship. The need to insult Frazier, to make a clown of a barely educated gladiator to sell tickets, is nonsense. Today's world might not remember that, or simply might not want to remember because there was been much editing of this portion of Ali's mostly noble life, but Frazier remembers.

"I hated Ali," Frazier told writer Thomas Hauser for his seminal biography, "Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times." "God might not like me talking that way, but it's in my heart. I hated that man … How would you feel if your kids came home from school crying because everyone was calling their daddy a gorilla? … 20 years I been fighting Ali, and I still want to take him apart piece by piece and send him back to Jesus.

"I don't like him but I got to say, in the ring he was a man … He shook me in Manila; he won. But I sent him home worse than he came. Look at him now. He's damaged goods. I know it; you know it. Everyone knows it … He was always making fun of me. I'm the dummy; I'm the one getting hit in the head. Tell me now; him or me; which one talks worse now?"

While those words and others that have followed, both in Atlanta and well after, make clear the depth of the pain Frazier feels when he thinks of Ali. Some still wonder why. Certainly what they did to each other in the ring was an accepted part of their brutal business. Prize fighters come to the arena with one aim in mind -- to concuss their opponent. No one felt that way more than Frazier and he understood that what flowed from that could be only one thing -- pain and agony.

He didn't resent that. Never has. He probably could have even found a way to accept losing two of their three fights had other things been different. He was, after all, a guy who used to slip Ali a few hundred during his years of exile when no one was looking. He was the guy who appeared for him at several hearings and pre-arranged publicity stunts to keep his name alive as Ali was trying to be reinstated. He was the guy who did what he could to help Ali when he was down, only to be kicked by him when he got up.

That's what Frazier can't forgive. That and the fact that Ali took it too far.

"Before we fought, the words hurt more than the punches," Frazier said in Hauser's book on Ali. "Now he says he did it to help the gate but the gate didn't have nothing to do with it. We had our guarantees -- $2.5 million each … Calling me an Uncle Tom; calling me the white man's champion -- all that was phoniness to turn people against me."

Ali v Frazier

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Joe Frazier's war with Muhammad Ali, left, was dubbed the "Fight of the Century."
Fight manager and writer Dave Wolf, who would later handle Ray Mancini and author a landmark book called "Foul!" on basketball player Connie Hawkins, was a part of Frazier's camp back then and he recalls, "I'm sure Ali has forgotten most of what he did … [but] … there were moments when Joe was so hurt and which he remembers vividly, even now."

Even all these long years later Frazier, a man who willingly accepted pain for the chance to inflict it, can't forget the ache of 35-year-old insults because they cut too deep. It hurts Frazier to acknowledge that he would not be remembered the way he is without those three nights of struggle with Ali. It hurts because too many people close to him were bruised not by what happened in the ring between them, but by what happened before them.

That is a pain that time cannot erase. At least not yet. And so Joe Frazier fights on, sparring with the ghost of a legend he once put on his back but never has been able to subdue.

Ron Borges, who has won numerous Boxing Writers Association of America awards, covers boxing for HBO.com and for Boxing Monthly.
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Post by Musashi »

I've said this before but I don't blame Joe one stinkin' bit. Ali was a selfish individual who deliberately stomped Joe Frazier's name into the ground to sell himself. I recall reading Joe Frazier's book about how his kids took a harsh beating from all of Ali's insults as well from other schoolchildren. Ali literally turned Joe Frazier into the anti-black man. For what? Because Joe wasn't as outspoken as Ali. How many people are? The most disturbing part in the end of all of this is that Ali will go down as this great ambassador for the African-American man but underneath it all was a hateful and selfish individual who only cared about himself. How do you, as an ambassador for the African-American people, deliberately tear down another black man merely for being a quiet man? Some will say it's boxing. I say that's a part of it but I also say Ali had an agenda. Ali's name will go down as an ambassador. Joe Frazier's name will always have a scuff mark on it from the comments that came from boxings "Greatest." He did it to other fighters but Joe Frazier happened to be the one man who time after time was always mentioned in the same sentence as Ali and Ali hated it. These men truly hated each other. Only Frazier had true reason to hate Ali. Ali had no reason to hate Frazier.
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Post by BoxBuzz »

npal wrote:I've said this before but I don't blame Joe one stinkin' bit. Ali was a selfish individual who deliberately stomped Joe Frazier's name into the ground to sell himself. I recall reading Joe Frazier's book about how his kids took a harsh beating from all of Ali's insults as well from other schoolchildren. Ali literally turned Joe Frazier into the anti-black man. For what? Because Joe wasn't as outspoken as Ali. How many people are? The most disturbing part in the end of all of this is that Ali will go down as this great ambassador for the African-American man but underneath it all was a hateful and selfish individual who only cared about himself. How do you, as an ambassador for the African-American people, deliberately tear down another black man merely for being a quiet man? Some will say it's boxing. I say that's a part of it but I also say Ali had an agenda. Ali's name will go down as an ambassador. Joe Frazier's name will always have a scuff mark on it from the comments that came from boxings "Greatest." He did it to other fighters but Joe Frazier happened to be the one man who time after time was always mentioned in the same sentence as Ali and Ali hated it. These men truly hated each other. Only Frazier had true reason to hate Ali. Ali had no reason to hate Frazier.
Forgiveness most elevates the person doing the forgiving.
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Post by Musashi »

BoxBuzz wrote:
npal wrote:I've said this before but I don't blame Joe one stinkin' bit. Ali was a selfish individual who deliberately stomped Joe Frazier's name into the ground to sell himself. I recall reading Joe Frazier's book about how his kids took a harsh beating from all of Ali's insults as well from other schoolchildren. Ali literally turned Joe Frazier into the anti-black man. For what? Because Joe wasn't as outspoken as Ali. How many people are? The most disturbing part in the end of all of this is that Ali will go down as this great ambassador for the African-American man but underneath it all was a hateful and selfish individual who only cared about himself. How do you, as an ambassador for the African-American people, deliberately tear down another black man merely for being a quiet man? Some will say it's boxing. I say that's a part of it but I also say Ali had an agenda. Ali's name will go down as an ambassador. Joe Frazier's name will always have a scuff mark on it from the comments that came from boxings "Greatest." He did it to other fighters but Joe Frazier happened to be the one man who time after time was always mentioned in the same sentence as Ali and Ali hated it. These men truly hated each other. Only Frazier had true reason to hate Ali. Ali had no reason to hate Frazier.
Forgiveness most elevates the person doing the forgiving.
Are you saying Joe should forgive Cassius?
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Post by silkov »

I suppose Ali shouldnt have felt angry and bitter at having his title taken from him and given to Frazier!!!... jeeze!... after all these years Fraziers still a bitter man, its a shame but the truth is its not the insults which he cant get over its the fact that Ali was a better fighter, the insults are just an excuse. Fraziers done more damage to his name than Ali ever did to him with this petty bitterness down the years and his crowing about Ali's health.... if Ali said bad things about Frazier in the 70s Fraziers more than made up for it since with his frankly disgusting comments about Ali since.... Ali has shown in the years since they both retired that he's a bigger man than Joe outside the ring as well as inside...
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Post by silkov »

Novelty goat wrote:"Ali, not long removed from the unfair exile imposed upon him by a government afraid of his politics and his growing social power, was a giant."

No! Ali was not treated unfairly by the US government. He was just a draft dodger and he should have faced a spell in jail.

I am on Fraziers side most completely. Ali's popularity as a personality that transcends boxing is proof of the power of charisma over character.
Why didnt Frazier go to Nam???.... what other top fighters were asked to go??..... you're talking anti Ali rubbish as usual....
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Post by silkov »

Novelty goat wrote:"Ali, not long removed from the unfair exile imposed upon him by a government afraid of his politics and his growing social power, was a giant."

No! Ali was not treated unfairly by the US government. He was just a draft dodger and he should have faced a spell in jail.

I am on Fraziers side most completely. Ali's popularity as a personality that transcends boxing is proof of the power of charisma over character.
If Frazier had an ounce of Ali's character he would have left all this in the past and moved on. Fraziers character is such that he put his son in with Holmes after just 10 pro fights.... he then put him in with Tyson a bit later.... got to love a father with character like that!!....
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Post by Lenny »

Didn't Frazier get spared the draft by the sole survivor policy?
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Post by The Great John L »

silkov wrote:
Novelty goat wrote:"Ali, not long removed from the unfair exile imposed upon him by a government afraid of his politics and his growing social power, was a giant."

No! Ali was not treated unfairly by the US government. He was just a draft dodger and he should have faced a spell in jail.

I am on Fraziers side most completely. Ali's popularity as a personality that transcends boxing is proof of the power of charisma over character.
Why didnt Frazier go to Nam???.... what other top fighters were asked to go??..... you're talking anti Ali rubbish as usual....
Ali wasn't asked, he was drafted. I would guess that Frazier wasn't drafted. It was a random selection process.
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Post by dempseyfire »

Both are at fault. Ali really did take it too far and was cruel during the pre-fight tirades at Frazier. However, for Frazier not to be able to lay it to rest years later shows a lack of character IMO. People have forgiven others for much more serious offenses.

And about the draft, all I know is that if they instated one tomorrow forcing albe-bodied men to go to Iraq I sure as hell ain't going . . .
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Post by Rocky Balboa »

I can understand why Frazier feels the way he does, but until ghe forgives or tries to even somehow forgive, forget, he won't be able to move on with his life! It will always haunt him if he's not careful!

I do feel Ali went too far in his insults of Frazier. Frazier was questioned by his own people i.e. black people, because of the Ali calling Joe an uncle tom, saying he was for the white people instead of his own etc.

I'll always remember the footage of Ali & Frazier scrapping it out in a New York studio while reviewing their first fight. When it came to the physical confrontation, Ali was sort of joking, Frazier was extremely angry.

I am a fan of both fighters. They're all-time greats, given so much to boxing. Frazier lost two fights to Ali, but who knows, if it were not for Eddie Futch, Joe may have been victorious in the third bout!

I wish both fighters the very best.

Does anyone have na update on Ali? I imagine his condition will only deteriorate.
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Post by Collins2000 »

npal wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
npal wrote:I've said this before but I don't blame Joe one stinkin' bit. Ali was a selfish individual who deliberately stomped Joe Frazier's name into the ground to sell himself. I recall reading Joe Frazier's book about how his kids took a harsh beating from all of Ali's insults as well from other schoolchildren. Ali literally turned Joe Frazier into the anti-black man. For what? Because Joe wasn't as outspoken as Ali. How many people are? The most disturbing part in the end of all of this is that Ali will go down as this great ambassador for the African-American man but underneath it all was a hateful and selfish individual who only cared about himself. How do you, as an ambassador for the African-American people, deliberately tear down another black man merely for being a quiet man? Some will say it's boxing. I say that's a part of it but I also say Ali had an agenda. Ali's name will go down as an ambassador. Joe Frazier's name will always have a scuff mark on it from the comments that came from boxings "Greatest." He did it to other fighters but Joe Frazier happened to be the one man who time after time was always mentioned in the same sentence as Ali and Ali hated it. These men truly hated each other. Only Frazier had true reason to hate Ali. Ali had no reason to hate Frazier.
Forgiveness most elevates the person doing the forgiving.
Are you saying Joe should forgive Cassius?

Well, after all this time, if he can't forgive him maybe he ought to get some professional help. He seems to be pathetically mired in the past. Sad, really.
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Post by I Feel Fine »

I have a few opinions on this.

The first one is that I don't have a problem with anything Ali said about Frazier in the buildup to the second and third fights, there was no political/racial slurs in that fight. But he was wrong in the first fight for calling Frazier an 'Uncle Tom' and those things. He shouldn't have brought race and politics into it, especially when the mixing up of race and politics with boxing by boxing officials is what got Ali exiled in the first place. So I do think the criticism of Ali is justified, at least for the buildup to the first fight.

But as for Frazier, I like Frazier and consider myself a fan of his, but I'm afraid to say I have no sympathy for him. For two reasons. Frazier made not one, not two, but three record purses for fighting Muhammad Ali. Ali can call me anything he wants for five million dollars. To put it into context, around the time of the first Ali-Frazier fight, a professional baseball player would make around thirty thousand bucks on average per year. A basketball player around fifty thousand per year. Ali and Frazier in the first match made 2.5 million, the most money ever made for a fight at that point. Quite a lot of money for an athlete of that time. They made 2.6 for the rematch, and Frazier five million for Manila. Therefore, anyone who feels sympathy for Joe Frazier on this issue is a fool. He made an enormous amount of money for that period of time, and that's all there is that needs to be said. Don't make Joe Frazier out to be a victim.

The other reason why no one should feel sympathy for Frazier is because at this point I'm starting to wonder if Frazier isn't just looking for attention. He hasn't been a real celebrity for quite some time. He doesn't get enough credit for his career, which is unfortunate, and the only way he can get attention and long articles written about him in this P.C. culture is for people to go on about how Ali called him a gorilla... as opposed to calling Patterson a rabbit, or Liston a bear. And, I can understand a grudge, but this happened during the time of the Nixon and Ford administrations for God's sake, and he keeps going on and on about it. Its quite absurd.

As for Joe's kids... that would have happened anyway. And, he was Joe Frazier, try taking it up with those kid's parents... what is their dad gonna do, try and hit the Heavyweight champion?

And lastly, Ali said many things about Foreman and Norton and Holmes, and they consider him a friend today. Norton had a near fatal car accident in the 80's which ended his career, and Norton always says that Ali was one of the first two or three people to visit him in the hospital. Frazier, it seems, is the only one who can't get over Ali's act.

And that's forgetting the several times since then that Ali has apologized, for whaver that is worth. That's also forgetting that this kind of thing is hardly unusual in boxing... Duran-Leonard comes to mind, and what Duran did prior to that fight is much worse than what Ali said to Frazier.

I'm not really trying to defend Ali here. Hate Ali if you want, though I think you're missing the big picture. But, don't even try to sell Frazier as some sort of victim. He wasn't a little kid being picked on in school, he was an adult who was greatly benefited by his encounters with Ali. And not just financially, if it wasn't for Ali, Frazier would be most remembered for being destroyed by Foreman.

Either way, lets move on, shall we?
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Post by Goodnight, Irene »

Everyone has their take, & we can only call it as we see it.

That being the case, I thought Ali's treatment of Frazier was despicable, & to write it all off as selling tickets displays a lack of class not always consistent with Ali's character.

For those of you ready to excuse it on a whim, just ask yourself the following question...if someone treated you with absolute dignity & grace, & even gave you money out of their own pocket, could you find it within yourself to treat them with disdain & contempt, questioning their intelligence, appearance, & ability, all under the guise of kidding?

I couldn't.
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Post by Brute »

Novelty goat wrote:"Ali, not long removed from the unfair exile imposed upon him by a government afraid of his politics and his growing social power, was a giant."

No! Ali was not treated unfairly by the US government. He was just a draft dodger and he should have faced a spell in jail.

I am on Fraziers side most completely. Ali's popularity as a personality that transcends boxing is proof of the power of charisma over character.
Gee, how about that! We have a legal genius on the board who knows more than the US Supreme Court. Grow up, sonny.
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Post by silkov »

Fraziers got the worst case of sour grapes in the history of boxing... to hear him still whining about the names Ali called him is little short of pathetic really...
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Post by silkov »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Everyone has their take, & we can only call it as we see it.

That being the case, I thought Ali's treatment of Frazier was despicable, & to write it all off as selling tickets displays a lack of class not always consistent with Ali's character.

For those of you ready to excuse it on a whim, just ask yourself the following question...if someone treated you with absolute dignity & grace, & even gave you money out of their own pocket, could you find it within yourself to treat them with disdain & contempt, questioning their intelligence, appearance, & ability, all under the guise of kidding?

I couldn't.
Most people could see that Ali was joking, he said just as bad things about Liston but the two of them were actually friends, you dont hear any of Ali's other opponents still going on about being called names by him... Frazier is just a sore loser and the name calling thing is just something he uses to try and make Ali look bad.... he's been doing the same act for the past 30 years and its really rather pitiful now, I respect him as a fighter but as a man Frazier comes up short.......
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Post by dempseyfire »

I Feel Fine wrote:I have a few opinions on this.

The first one is that I don't have a problem with anything Ali said about Frazier in the buildup to the second and third fights, there was no political/racial slurs in that fight.
There's nothing racial about being called a big dumb ugly gorilla?? That was before Manilla.
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Post by Ezzard »

I can understand Frazier's bitterness. It's easy for Ali to be offering the olive branch, after all he won.

I know Frazier's investments post ring career all fell short. He must see Ali taking all the plaudits and he must remember how close he was to winning in Manila.

It would be better for Frazier if he could just let it slide and accept but it's easier said than done.
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Post by mrbassie »

Ali refusing to be inducted was in no way a bad thing and no he should not have gone to prison and nor should any of the guys who actually did. It was a genocidal war and later on every non redneck in America knew it, including the army, that's why soldiers were throwing grenades into officers mess's on army bases, that's why the war only ended because official studies concluded that the entire US military was months from a total collapse due to the protest movement WITHIN the military.
Ali was singled out because he was I think the first celebrity to protest in any way and had to be made an example of.
Ali did the right thing and so did everybody else who refused to go, just like if someone refuses to go to Iraq now to kill for Iraqi oil. It's called being moral rather than being a flag worshipping, pledge taking sheep.
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Post by Eric the Viking »

Soryy, good as the article may or may not be, as soon as I saw the author's name, I stopped reading.

R*n B*rges is a f*cking tw*t.
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Post by Matt W »

After reading such comments every few years you do just wish Frazier could move on. Whilst I can understand his feelings to a degree, I can't understand how they have lingered for so long.

I think I Feel Fine makes a lot of good points, and I think there is more to this than the comments Ali made. I think Joe is, perhaps rightly, bitter about what he perceives to be a lack of recognition for his achievements and digs at Ali is how he vents it.

I think it's sad when fighters can't seem to move on with their lives. None of us are what we were when we were younger, we all retire and lose things we value. And that is without achieving a fraction of what someone like Frazier did. Shouldn't he be happy with his achievements and bollocks to everyone else?

In that context Nigel Benn's recent comments are positively refreshin.
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Post by Musashi »

Matt W wrote:I think I Feel Fine makes a lot of good points, and I think there is more to this than the comments Ali made. I think Joe is, perhaps rightly, bitter about what he perceives to be a lack of recognition for his achievements and digs at Ali is how he vents it.
That's possible. But the way Joe tells it in his book, Ali made those years for him and his family unbearable (years that you can't get back) with the torture not only from Ali himself but Ali supporters. If it's as bad as Joe would tell it, I'd probably hold a grudge too.
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Post by Matt W »

I understand that, but ultimately where does it get you? I'd bet his own attitude to the remarks has given him many more miserable years than he endured back then.
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Post by Musashi »

Matt W wrote:I understand that, but ultimately where does it get you? I'd bet his own attitude to the remarks has given him many more miserable years than he endured back then.
True. Still hard to sweep certain things under the rug.
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