Are there any significant names Ali didn't fight?

joe kurtz · Post by **joe kurtz** » 20 Oct 2007, 13:49

Back to the original topic of the thread, I'd say that the only heavyweights of note that Ali failed to meet during his era(s) were:

Robert Cleroux - A very good, rough, tough Canadian who actually beat Chuvalo two out of three times & was rated pretty highly.

Jose Urtain - This Spainard ran up a massive KO streak in Europe & was considered a real threat for a while in the early '70s & would've made an attractive match up with Ali while unbeaten, but was exposed by the UK's Jack Bodell as little more than the circus strongman that he was.

Jeff Merritt - "Candy Slim" was a lanky lethal puncher, but his appetite for another sort of "candy" in heroin kept him from reaching his potential. As did stretches in prison.

Larry Middleton - This lower tier contender/gatekeeper was so busy fighting everyone else while Ali was just as busy, if not busier during the same stretch is almost amazing that they never fought one another.

Boone Kirkman - Another somewhat prominant heavy that it's surprising that Ali never met, especially since it would've been huge in the pacific-northwest. Probably would've gotten a title shot vs Ali had the 3 1/2 year "vacation" not been forced on him.

That's all for now. Though I feel compelled to state the obvious in pointing out that Ali certainly didn't "duck" or avoid any of these men. He was after all, only one man & his busy schedule could only accomodate so many opponents.

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 21 Oct 2007, 01:21

I Feel Fine wrote:Well you mentioned excessive holding and gripping behind the neck, which are illegal, and I thought you were equating laying on the ropes with that. I have read people in the past try to say that Ali laying on the ropes should have been illegal, which is incorrect.

From what I remember the referee did warn Young for ducking his head under the ropes, so I assume it is illegal. Either way, I agree that Young should have won the fight.

Oh, come now! It was not even a split decision! The argument is not just that Young kept sticking his head through the ropes, but that he was doing that instead of throwing punches. For Ali, who was at least 10 pounds overweight, it was not even a hard fight.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 21 Oct 2007, 02:19

TuffCustomer wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:I suppose Norton lost to Ali in 76 too. The man was unbeatable.
Norton won the first one. NortonLost the second soundly and the third was close but Ali nicked it. Tough style for Ali but he managed 2 out 3.

Norton won the second fight according to Dave...I stick to what Dave says.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 21 Oct 2007, 02:23

Brute wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:You're an ignorant person. Holyfield was holding Tyson throughout the whole fight, which is illegal the last time I checked. Lewis and several other fighters held behind the neck and were never penalized. But the slit throat Ali haters only want Ali to lose points, while defending fighters like Duran who could be absolutely filthy-forget dirty- in the ring.
You probably never had a boxing match in your life...Very ignorant post of what I am reading. The Holyfield-Tyson fights were fights were both of them were holding, but not around the neck.

Duran was not a dirty figther...Tell me what fight you see Duran doing ILLEGAL TACTICS?
He won the lightweight title by hitting Ken Buchanan in the balls.

According to Johnny LoBianco, the referee, it was not a shot at the balls. Buchanan wanted to win the fight by a foul because he was getting an ass kicking. Even Buchanan was hitting Duran after the bell...The shot is not even seen clearly if it was a low blow or not. Duran was waaay ahead on the scorecards anyway. Tell me a fight that Duran fought dirty???

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Oct 2007, 16:00

One thing I always admired about Ali is that he never ducked anyone. When he fought that big Japanese ultimate fighter in the 70's=that was taking a tremendous risk. Not much action,but Ali had everything to lose and could have looked humiliated if that guy could have locked up with him. He was trying to line up a fight with Stevenson,Foreman didn't want him right away after his loss,and Ali never wanted the public to think he didn't want to fight Holmes,so he went in there and didn't have a chance. He would have died that night if Dundee hadnn't stopped it. He kept fighting Frazier and Norton because he wanted to prove once and for all who was the best. (I think he fell short with Norton which I've posted),but you can't fault his courage.

Antonio Inoki was not a UFC guy. Hell the UFC didn't even exist until the early 1990's. Anotonio Inoki was a professional wrestler who also knew Judo, and is sometimes credited as being the father of MMA (mixed martial arts) as he had exhibitions with people of different sports such as Chuck Wepner, Karl Mildenberger, Muhammad Ali and even Leon Spinks.

What alot of people can't grasp is that the majority of those boxer/wrestler bouts were worked. Ali-Inoki on the other hand was so bad, it's possible that messages were mixed and Inoki genuinely felt that Ali was going to kick his ass so he stayed on his back and kicked the entire time.

The result? Ali threw 6 punches in 15 rounds, landing only 2, while Inoki kicked the shit out of Ali, to the point Ali needed surgery on his legs. The 15 round debacle ended up, somehow, as a DRAW.

People wanna call the Young fight a gift decision, but if there ever was one, it was Ali-Inoki.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 21 Oct 2007, 18:27

elmersalsa wrote:
TuffCustomer wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:I suppose Norton lost to Ali in 76 too. The man was unbeatable.
Norton won the first one. NortonLost the second soundly and the third was close but Ali nicked it. Tough style for Ali but he managed 2 out 3.
Norton won the second fight according to Dave...I stick to what Dave says.

Though, as you readily admit, you've never actually seen the fight.

In fact, why bother posting if Dave is covering this topic?

Brute · Post by **Brute** » 21 Oct 2007, 20:48

HomicideHenry wrote:
One thing I always admired about Ali is that he never ducked anyone. When he fought that big Japanese ultimate fighter in the 70's=that was taking a tremendous risk. Not much action,but Ali had everything to lose and could have looked humiliated if that guy could have locked up with him. He was trying to line up a fight with Stevenson,Foreman didn't want him right away after his loss,and Ali never wanted the public to think he didn't want to fight Holmes,so he went in there and didn't have a chance. He would have died that night if Dundee hadnn't stopped it. He kept fighting Frazier and Norton because he wanted to prove once and for all who was the best. (I think he fell short with Norton which I've posted),but you can't fault his courage.
Antonio Inoki was not a UFC guy. Hell the UFC didn't even exist until the early 1990's. Anotonio Inoki was a professional wrestler who also knew Judo, and is sometimes credited as being the father of MMA (mixed martial arts) as he had exhibitions with people of different sports such as Chuck Wepner, Karl Mildenberger, Muhammad Ali and even Leon Spinks.

What alot of people can't grasp is that the majority of those boxer/wrestler bouts were worked. Ali-Inoki on the other hand was so bad, it's possible that messages were mixed and Inoki genuinely felt that Ali was going to kick his ass so he stayed on his back and kicked the entire time.

The result? Ali threw 6 punches in 15 rounds, landing only 2, while Inoki kicked the shit out of Ali, to the point Ali needed surgery on his legs. The 15 round debacle ended up, somehow, as a DRAW.

People wanna call the Young fight a gift decision, but if there ever was one, it was Ali-Inoki.

Sheik Wadi Ayoub was a Lebanese Australian (he called himself Sheik, a Muslim rank, in spite of the fact that he was a Christian

) who wrestled with and against blokes like Mark Lewin and Killer Karl Kox in Australia in the 1960s. After the Ali/Inoke farce, someone asked him if he thought it was fixed. He said "No. If it was a fix they would have made it look better." It was not a match anyway, but an exhibition.

If you want to stretch a point, Ali never fought sometime Australian heavyweight Champ Foster Bibron. Bibron lost his Australian Heavyweight title to middleweight Tony Mundine, but along the way beat British heavyweight Billy Aird, who, in an erratic career, beat Richard Dunn once and fought an eight round draw with Jimmy Young. Then again, that is really stretching a point.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Oct 2007, 23:06

Mark Lewin

believe he fought Buddy Rogers once in Ohio and took a back body drop over Rogers, over the ropes and 15 feet to the concrete floor below (as the ring was on a stage). Amazing, considering they rarely did such "death-defying" stunts back then in the 1950's and prior.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 22 Oct 2007, 00:13

Brute wrote:Oh, come now! It was not even a split decision! The argument is not just that Young kept sticking his head through the ropes, but that he was doing that instead of throwing punches. For Ali, who was at least 10 pounds overweight, it was not even a hard fight.

It seems that since I started here that maybe 20% of my posts have been about me arguing that Ali deserved his decisions over Jones or Frazier or Norton or deserved his wins over the Cooper's and the Lyle's and that his first won over Liston was legit, etc. etc. I'm finally the opposite situation.

Anyway, no, I thought Ali lost the fight. A younger, lighter Ali would beat Young, probably in a similar fashion to the way he beat Ellis. But I thought that older, worn down, overweight Ali lost that fight.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 23 Oct 2007, 01:48

Collins2000 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
TuffCustomer wrote: Norton won the first one. NortonLost the second soundly and the third was close but Ali nicked it. Tough style for Ali but he managed 2 out 3.
Norton won the second fight according to Dave...I stick to what Dave says.
Though, as you readily admit, you've never actually seen the fight.

In fact, why bother posting if Dave is covering this topic?

Because, probably if I see the fight, I would not be surprised if Norton won the second fight...I saw the fight I and III and Norton won them CLEARLY.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 23 Oct 2007, 03:14

elmersalsa wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote: Norton won the second fight according to Dave...I stick to what Dave says.
Though, as you readily admit, you've never actually seen the fight.

In fact, why bother posting if Dave is covering this topic?

Because, probably if I see the fight, I would not be surprised if Norton won the second fight...I saw the fight I and III and Norton won them CLEARLY.

Funniest post this week, mate. You are on fire.

joe kurtz · Post by **joe kurtz** » 25 Oct 2007, 14:51

Decagon wrote:
joe kurtz wrote:Back to the original topic of the thread, I'd say that the only heavyweights of note that Ali failed to meet during his era(s) were:

Robert Cleroux - A very good, rough, tough Canadian who actually beat Chuvalo two out of three times & was rated pretty highly.
He sucked. His wins over Chuvalo sucked. He didn't deserve to fight Ali.

Oh c'mon now, let's not quibble about merit now.

I haven't seen a whole lot of Cleroux's fights, but the fact of the matter is that he was 2-1 against the always highly ranked Chuvalo, he had a very good record & he was in the top ten for much of his career, so ...

Had Ali chosen to meet him in the ring, then he'd have certainly been no less deserving than men like Brian London, Jurgin Blin, Rudi Lubbers etc..

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 25 Oct 2007, 16:36

elmersalsa wrote:
Brute wrote:
elmersalsa wrote: You probably never had a boxing match in your life...Very ignorant post of what I am reading. The Holyfield-Tyson fights were fights were both of them were holding, but not around the neck.

Duran was not a dirty figther...Tell me what fight you see Duran doing ILLEGAL TACTICS?
He won the lightweight title by hitting Ken Buchanan in the balls.
According to Johnny LoBianco, the referee, it was not a shot at the balls. Buchanan wanted to win the fight by a foul because he was getting an ass kicking. Even Buchanan was hitting Duran after the bell...The shot is not even seen clearly if it was a low blow or not. Duran was waaay ahead on the scorecards anyway. Tell me a fight that Duran fought dirty???

It would be a lot less time consuming to find the fights that he didn't fight dirty.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 26 Oct 2007, 18:07

Ambling Alp wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
Brute wrote: He won the lightweight title by hitting Ken Buchanan in the balls.
According to Johnny LoBianco, the referee, it was not a shot at the balls. Buchanan wanted to win the fight by a foul because he was getting an ass kicking. Even Buchanan was hitting Duran after the bell...The shot is not even seen clearly if it was a low blow or not. Duran was waaay ahead on the scorecards anyway. Tell me a fight that Duran fought dirty???
It would be a lot less time consuming to find the fights that he didn't fight dirty.

Show me or mention a fight, then?...Besides the Buchanan fiasco.