NAZ - Hall of Fame?

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 23 Oct 2007, 17:26

A look at Hameds comp in detail:

Vasquez - 3 division champion, WBA featherweight champ - brutalised

Bungu - IBF king at 122 beating Mkkinney twice (before Barrera did), had a better resume at super bantamweight than Barrera - ko'd in 4

Soto - WBC champ, top3 at 126? Beat Hatton victim Castillo

Tom Johnson - IBF champ at feather and top2 in the world, outboxed and ko'd

Ingle - IBF champ and beat the man who beat MAB

Medina - 5 time featherweight champ in his prime, top 5 featherweight - avoided by MAB - ko'd despite Hamed suffering from Flu

McColough - ex bantamweight champ and robbed of the super bantamweight crown, beat without too much trouble, he went on to go close with Morales 6 months later

Robinson - excellent WBO champ who himself beat a 3weight champ and made many defences, easily outboxed and dispatched brutally.

Kevin Kelly - still near his prime, ex-champ and a top3 fighter when Hamed ko'd him

Other factors

Hamed beat all 4 belt holders, all the top featherweight contenders and a total of 10 world champions and ruled the roost for 6 years.

Hamed is a natural bantamweight that was campaigning at super bantamweight and only fought at featherweight because a title fight became available.

Hamed beat 2 fighters in 2 rounds that each went the distance with Erik Morales.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 23 Oct 2007, 17:32

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:A look at Hameds comp in detail:

Vasquez - 3 division champion, WBA featherweight champ - brutalised

Bungu - IBF king at 122 beating Mkkinney twice (before Barrera did), had a better resume at super bantamweight than Barrera - ko'd in 4

Soto - WBC champ, top3 at 126? Beat Hatton victim Castillo

Tom Johnson - IBF champ at feather and top2 in the world, outboxed and ko'd

Ingle - IBF champ and beat the man who beat MAB

Medina - 5 time featherweight champ in his prime, top 5 featherweight - avoided by MAB - ko'd despite Hamed suffering from Flu

McColough - ex bantamweight champ and robbed of the super bantamweight crown, beat without too much trouble, he went on to go close with Morales 6 months later

Robinson - excellent WBO champ who himself beat a 3weight champ and made many defences, easily outboxed and dispatched brutally.

Kevin Kelly - still near his prime, ex-champ and a top3 fighter when Hamed ko'd him

Other factors

Hamed beat all 4 belt holders, all the top featherweight contenders and a total of 10 world champions and ruled the roost for 6 years.

Hamed is a natural bantamweight that was campaigning at super bantamweight and only fought at featherweight because a title fight became available.

Hamed beat 2 fighters in 2 rounds that each went the distance with Erik Morales.

Stop mentioning the plastic. It means nothing

The best of those was Kelley, Johnson and Medina.

They were all past their best, but excellent fighters.

La Porte and McGuigan would have beaten them all.

The only one who would have had a chance would have been Kelley, and he almost KO'd Naz.

In fact Kelley is one of my favourites. Remember his fights with troy Dorsey.

Stop mentioning the plastic belts, they mean nothing. If he unified 100 belts it would mean shit.

Its who you beat

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Oct 2007, 18:25

Personally think neither are worthy of a place in the HoF on Boxing alone. However, I don't completely begrudge McGuigan his place due to his national hero status, broadcasting work and work with the PBA etc. The man united a country and was a POPULAR figure in the states.

Hamed was treated as a bit of a novelty/joke by the US press and he actually never proofed to them that he was wrong. Even though Hamed lost the same number of times in the states as McGuigan the manner of their defeats was very different.

I think McGuigan is there primarily because of his popularity as opposed to his fight achievements. Also, McGuigan hasn't done jail time for nearly killing a guy and lost his honours in disgrace. I think for that reason Hamed will never be in the Boxing HOF - I hope to think that Tyson will not be there either for his disgraceful actions.

McGuigan is there partly for the same reason why I think Micky Ward will be there in the near future - captured the hearts, more so than his achievements (although naturally, McGuigan was a MUCH MUCH better fighter than Ward).

chesh · Post by **chesh** » 23 Oct 2007, 19:12

hitman_hatton1 wrote:oh yeah and that other super bantam moving up erik morales. :)

i know bazza shouldn't really be in.

but anyone that saw him fight knows he could have stood with a prime naseem hamed.

with his style and workrate and sheer fighting heart.

eff me if paul ingle could trouble a slightly past it naz then imagine what bazza would have done.

Naz shouldn't have been past it when he fought Ingle. He was only 25!

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 23 Oct 2007, 19:21

chesh wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote:oh yeah and that other super bantam moving up erik morales. :)

i know bazza shouldn't really be in.

but anyone that saw him fight knows he could have stood with a prime naseem hamed.

with his style and workrate and sheer fighting heart.

eff me if paul ingle could trouble a slightly past it naz then imagine what bazza would have done.
Naz shouldn't have been past it when he fought Ingle. He was only 25!

He wasnt past it. He wasnt past it for Ingle or Barrera. It is just his fans way of excusing his performance or donwnplaying that of his opponent.

Naz was never past it.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Oct 2007, 19:57

Simply said I would vote to confirm him into the HOF.

Coco · Post by **Coco** » 23 Oct 2007, 20:16

KO Artist wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:A look at Hameds comp in detail:

Vasquez - 3 division champion, WBA featherweight champ - brutalised

Bungu - IBF king at 122 beating Mkkinney twice (before Barrera did), had a better resume at super bantamweight than Barrera - ko'd in 4

Soto - WBC champ, top3 at 126? Beat Hatton victim Castillo

Tom Johnson - IBF champ at feather and top2 in the world, outboxed and ko'd

Ingle - IBF champ and beat the man who beat MAB

Medina - 5 time featherweight champ in his prime, top 5 featherweight - avoided by MAB - ko'd despite Hamed suffering from Flu

McColough - ex bantamweight champ and robbed of the super bantamweight crown, beat without too much trouble, he went on to go close with Morales 6 months later

Robinson - excellent WBO champ who himself beat a 3weight champ and made many defences, easily outboxed and dispatched brutally.

Kevin Kelly - still near his prime, ex-champ and a top3 fighter when Hamed ko'd him

Other factors

Hamed beat all 4 belt holders, all the top featherweight contenders and a total of 10 world champions and ruled the roost for 6 years.

Hamed is a natural bantamweight that was campaigning at super bantamweight and only fought at featherweight because a title fight became available.

Hamed beat 2 fighters in 2 rounds that each went the distance with Erik Morales.
Stop mentioning the plastic. It means nothing

The best of those was Kelley, Johnson and Medina.

They were all past their best, but excellent fighters.

La Porte and McGuigan would have beaten them all.

The only one who would have had a chance would have been Kelley, and he almost KO'd Naz.

In fact Kelley is one of my favourites. Remember his fights with troy Dorsey.

Stop mentioning the plastic belts, they mean nothing. If he unified 100 belts it would mean shit.

Its who you beat

Regardless of the belts, Hamed beat the best out there at his weight.
Mcguigan would beat them all??
Imagine what Stevie Cruz would to Hamed then

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 24 Oct 2007, 03:47

Coco wrote:
KO Artist wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:A look at Hameds comp in detail:

Vasquez - 3 division champion, WBA featherweight champ - brutalised

Bungu - IBF king at 122 beating Mkkinney twice (before Barrera did), had a better resume at super bantamweight than Barrera - ko'd in 4

Soto - WBC champ, top3 at 126? Beat Hatton victim Castillo

Tom Johnson - IBF champ at feather and top2 in the world, outboxed and ko'd

Ingle - IBF champ and beat the man who beat MAB

Medina - 5 time featherweight champ in his prime, top 5 featherweight - avoided by MAB - ko'd despite Hamed suffering from Flu

McColough - ex bantamweight champ and robbed of the super bantamweight crown, beat without too much trouble, he went on to go close with Morales 6 months later

Robinson - excellent WBO champ who himself beat a 3weight champ and made many defences, easily outboxed and dispatched brutally.

Kevin Kelly - still near his prime, ex-champ and a top3 fighter when Hamed ko'd him

Other factors

Hamed beat all 4 belt holders, all the top featherweight contenders and a total of 10 world champions and ruled the roost for 6 years.

Hamed is a natural bantamweight that was campaigning at super bantamweight and only fought at featherweight because a title fight became available.

Hamed beat 2 fighters in 2 rounds that each went the distance with Erik Morales.
Stop mentioning the plastic. It means nothing

The best of those was Kelley, Johnson and Medina.

They were all past their best, but excellent fighters.

La Porte and McGuigan would have beaten them all.

The only one who would have had a chance would have been Kelley, and he almost KO'd Naz.

In fact Kelley is one of my favourites. Remember his fights with troy Dorsey.

Stop mentioning the plastic belts, they mean nothing. If he unified 100 belts it would mean shit.

Its who you beat
Regardless of the belts, Hamed beat the best out there at his weight.
Mcguigan would beat them all??
Imagine what Stevie Cruz would to Hamed then

Hamed certainly did not beat the best at 126.

scrutinise his record.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 24 Oct 2007, 05:16

Manuel Medina HOF?

I think Hamed should be HOF. but i can't be bothered to explain why

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 24 Oct 2007, 05:28

if you think McGuigan is more deserving than Hamed you want your head testing.

Guys get into the HOF with a lot less than him, Baz included.

And he didn't just beat most of these world champs and former world champs, he outboxed them and stopped them.

Bungu, Ingle, Medina, Johnson, Robinson, Kelley, Vazquez.......victories, albeit scrappy, over McCullough and Soto.

He made these guys look ordinary. Naz was slated for his performance against Wayne, but look at the Morales v McCullough fights.

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 24 Oct 2007, 05:47

KO Artist wrote:
chesh wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote:oh yeah and that other super bantam moving up erik morales. :)

i know bazza shouldn't really be in.

but anyone that saw him fight knows he could have stood with a prime naseem hamed.

with his style and workrate and sheer fighting heart.

eff me if paul ingle could trouble a slightly past it naz then imagine what bazza would have done.
Naz shouldn't have been past it when he fought Ingle. He was only 25!
He wasnt past it. He wasnt past it for Ingle or Barrera. It is just his fans way of excusing his performance or donwnplaying that of his opponent.

Naz was never past it.

anyone that watched his career knows that he peaked between 94 and 97.

his performances dipped after that.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 24 Oct 2007, 05:57

verballistic wrote:
Terry D wrote:No. His first truly legitimate test saw him losing then going on a downward curve.

He had one-dimension and once his power did not tell his fights were awful mauls. He was Wayne Alexander with a bunch of belts.

your "downward curve" is a nice way of putting it...IMO it is better described as having your heart torn out by your first loss and losing all dedication, desire and discipline to continue after that!!

10 Million quid in the bank helps to lose desire to get punched in the face as well.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 24 Oct 2007, 06:23

I wouldn't describe Robinson as a B- journeyman, that is very unfair. He was a good solid pro and a deserving champ.

And don't even get me started om McGuigan and MEGAFIGHTS! Do me a favour.....

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 24 Oct 2007, 06:34

I think McGuigan was rightly included at least in part because of his contribution to the health of this nation, he was a unifying force, at least temporarily in Ireland.

However, he was also a devil of a fighter. He would unquestionnably have been competitive or better with Hamed. He would, but for the shocking management of his clash with Cruz, potentially been a belt holder for longer too. Though he too, failed to face some illustrious contemporaries didn't he?

The thing that sticks in my craw about Hamed's career, isn't the loss or the instant retirement once he was booed. It was the avoidance of JMM when he was WBO number one contender.

To me that spoke volumes about the desire to face live, hungry, competent opponents.

That said. He makes in for me, because he was a huge force in the boxing world, a star who transcended the confines of the sport and that is all too rare.

He was a tremendous fighter, who didn't deliver on his potential. Hubris was his downfall, not age.

Khaosai-Galaxy · Post by **Khaosai-Galaxy** » 24 Oct 2007, 06:51

Hall of fames: pointless and ultimately too subjective to be of any worth to anyone besides the homeless

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 24 Oct 2007, 07:21

Not sure about Naz being included myself.

But people go all stary eyed when they look at McGuigan and his inclsuion - I dont think he is worthy either tbh.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 24 Oct 2007, 08:06

verballistic wrote:nice spin...but it's just as easy to spin it the way i do below!!

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:A look at Hameds comp in detail:

Vasquez - 3 division champion, WBA featherweight champ - brutalised
1. wilfredo was nearly 38 and badly faded by the time naz got to him!! an example of ingenious matchmaking on the part of naz' team!!

Bungu - IBF king at 122 beating Mkkinney twice (before Barrera did), had a better resume at super bantamweight than Barrera - ko'd in 4
2. bungu's first fight above super bantam...he was 33 YEARS OLD and despite his longevity at 122 with 13 defenses, his RESUME was not as good ad barrera's---his biggest wins were decisions over mckinney and salud---both guys were STOPPED by barrera!!

Soto - WBC champ, top3 at 126? Beat Hatton victim Castill
3. soto beat castillo 6 years before he fought hamed, one of 4 early losses for JLC (all by stoppage)...castillo didnt find his optimum weight class until 7 years later!! soto went only 4-11-1 after the hamed fight...maybe that body slam naz threw on him took too much out of him!!

Tom Johnson - IBF champ at feather and top2 in the world, outboxed and ko'd
4. decent champ, but his career-defining wins were decisions over manuel medina and he will never get a sniff from HOF...nice 44-2 record against ordinary opposition!!

Ingle - IBF champ and beat the man who beat MAB
5. gutsy regional star whose career-defining win came against jones, who was destroyed by both kennedy mckinney and erik morales in 4 rounds and was faded significantly by the time ingle took him in 11 rounds, over 3 years after the barrera fights!! ingle was tragically brutalized by botile right after the jones win and botile lost his title in very next defense and never won again!!

Medina - 5 time featherweight champ in his prime, top 5 featherweight - avoided by MAB - ko'd despite Hamed suffering from Flu
6. manuel medina is a durable vet who hasnt lost too much of his ability over the long haul of his 22-year career, but even AT HIS BEST, he was never that good---career-defining wins were BOTH 12-round disputed SPLIT decisions over alejabdro gonzalez (95) and scott harrison (03)...he went 0-2 against espinosa (never an HOF candidate), plus got DESTROYED by light-hitting derrick gainer!! medina lost 4 of previous 10 fights before naz and 2 of next 3 after naz and will never even be CONSIDERED for HOF!!

McColough - ex bantamweight champ and robbed of the super bantamweight crown, beat without too much trouble, he went on to go close with Morales 6 months later
7. wayne is a great guy...lots of heart, but other than his split decision win over yakushiji in 1995, wayne lost to every WORLD-CLASS fighter he ever face!! the most notable thing about his bout with naz was hamed's inability to fulfill his 3rd-round KO prediction!! hamed actually fought rather timidly vs wayne, considering his lack of power!!

Robinson - excellent WBO champ who himself beat a 3weight champ and made many defences, easily outboxed and dispatched brutally

8. steve robinson was a B-minus journeyman who would have NEVER have had a world title if not for the WBO tapping him as a last-minute sub for AIDS-infected palacio!! sure robo had some decent defenses, but mostly against guys past their peak...hodkinson was never the same after being brutalized by vargas in previous fight!! mackenzie had peaked 3 years before robo fought him and was shot after the del valle loss!! the rest of robo's challengers were WBO-style charity cases!!

Kevin Kelly - still near his prime, ex-champ and a top3 fighter when Hamed ko'd him
9. kelley was top-notch when he beat vargas in 1993, but was never the same after his BRUTAL late-round TKO loss to alejo gonzalez in 1995---one of the most brutal slugfests i have ever seen & kevin took unfathomable amounts of punishment in that fight!! despite that the LIGHT-HITTING kelley had naz down 3 times and in trouble before naz' power pulled it out for him!!

Hamed beat all 4 belt holders, all the top featherweight contenders and a total of 10 world champions and ruled the roost for 6 years.
10. altho barrera is clearly NOW headed for the HOF, he was NOT at the time he fought and exposed naz despite the fact that it was MAB's FIRST bout at feather, having moved up directly from super bantam to fight naz!! even tho barrera beat naz, his HOF credentials are solidified by the 13 bouts he had AFTER beating naz!! naz quit after a lackluster win over a journeyman named calvo!!!

Hamed is a natural bantamweight that was campaigning at super bantamweight and only fought at featherweight because a title fight became available.
11. 3 of naz' biggest fights were against guys coming DIRECTLY up from 122---bungu, mccullough and barrera!!

Hamed beat 2 fighters in 2 rounds that each went the distance with Erik Morales.
nothing to brag about...naz was a puncher and erik was not, simple as that!!

bottom line: naz' resume was carefully crafted to catch name fighters who were either:

1. just past their peak
2. coming up in weight
3. both

12. his record against future HOFers is 0-1...not a single one of hamed's victims will even be NOMINATED for international HOF!! the fact that his lone loss snatched away all his desire to fight again is an intangible factor that cannot be ignored by HOF...to retire at age 28 after losing your most meaningful match ever shows a lack of heart that strongly works against his ever being inducted!!

TIME ALONE WILL TELL who is right on this one, but i REALLY LIKE MY CHANCES ON THIS BET!!

Who would you have wanted Hamed to fight at 126lbs Given . The only name he didn't face was Espinosa and Espinosa lost to Soto who Hamed beat. Marquez wasn't beating anyone special and was busy losing to Norwood. Barrera and Morales were at 122lbs

1. Vasquez is still a quality win over a 3 weight champ, yes he was 38 but hadn't lost in many years and was WBA Champ. Tyszu was 35 when Hatton beat him. It was a good win for Hamed.

2. So? Theres only 4lbs between 122- and 126 and Hamed started at 115 himself, winning his first honours at 118. Do you think Hagler and Hopkins are not ATGs because their best wins are over fighters from lower weight classes? Bungus an excellent win and was champ for 7 years at 122lbs and had wins over Mkkinney.

3. So? Soto was the WBC Champ, coming off a win over Espinosa and top 3 in the division. Hamed isn't responsible for Sotos post Hamed form, maybe he lost dedication, who knows.

4. Johnson beat his share of contenders and like you say 44-2 coming into the Hamed fight. He was top competition

5. So Ingle beat the man who beat MAB, and MAB is supposedly the first world class fighter Hamed fought. Yes Jones lost to MkKinney and Morales too but they are elite fighters themselves. The Botile fight was tragic, maybe Botile would have been much better if not for this tragic fight. We know Eubank/Benn/Chavez/Ezard Charles were never the same fighters after the tragic bouts they fought in.

6. Thats not the point, Medina is a good fighter, with wins over elite compeition. He lost his fair share because he continued to fight the best. Medina may have 1 of the best resumes in boxing in terms of who hes fought

7. McColough was in his prime, was a champ at 118 and got robbed for the belt at 122 against

8. Robinson wasnt a journeyman. He was robbed in many of his early losses and had wins over plenty of top10 fighters. He was 1 of the best in the world when Hamed beat him.

9. Was Kelly in his prime? Maybe and maybe not, he probably wasn't too far from it. How do you know he was never the same after Gonzalez? Kelly would have prepared thwe best he could for Hamed as this was his last big shot.

10. Barreras prime was Morales 1 and Hamed, he went downhill after Hamed. If he lost to Hamed he probably wouldnt be in the HOF nope

11. Hamed started at 115 and won his first honours at 118. All of Haglers biggest fights were against fighters up from below 160lbs. Thats usually the case when you sit in 1 division

12. Kevin Kelly, Vasquez (3weight champ) and even Bungu could potentially make the HOF so if thats the case he could be 3-1 against HOFamers. HOF standards are not that high these days anyway. Its a shame Hamed retired but he had lost desire for boxing so maybe its for the best he didnt comeback

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2007, 08:25

DavidPayne wrote:I think McGuigan was rightly included at least in part because of his contribution to the health of this nation, he was a unifying force, at least temporarily in Ireland.

However, he was also a devil of a fighter. He would unquestionnably have been competitive or better with Hamed. He would, but for the shocking management of his clash with Cruz, potentially been a belt holder for longer too. Though he too, failed to face some illustrious contemporaries didn't he?

The thing that sticks in my craw about Hamed's career, isn't the loss or the instant retirement once he was booed. It was the avoidance of JMM when he was WBO number one contender.

It depends on the criteria for getting in I guess. Naz lit up the featherweight division like no-one else, and turned it into a multi million pound division. No featherweight before him had cracked the million dollar mark, and you could say he paved the way for the type of purses featherweights like MAB and Morales make now.

He might have been the first fighter below lightweight to feature on HBO as a main event.

I'd put him in there just for that alone.

You could say he ducked Marquez, but I'm sure that was more about dollars than anything else. Why take on a killer like Barrera if he was scared of losing?

Plus McGuigen blatantly ducked Azumah Nelson.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 24 Oct 2007, 21:12

Whilst they might not be the biggest names of all time - Hamed two glaring ommitions from his resume are Espinosa and Norwood. They are the equivalent to Ottke and Beyer for Joe Calzaghe. They might have been given a less of a chance than the likes of Barrera (Hopkins) - but they were the belt holder with any claims for the #1 fighter in the devision - these were the rivals that Hamed should have faced.

Not that I am saying McGuigan fought them all, as MW very correctly points out - Azumah Nelson, Bryon Mitchell etc etc - glaring ommitions. I personally do not doubt that Hamed has the better resume, but McGuigan has done more for the sport and McGuigan hasn't disgraced himself out of the ring.

I do disagree somewhat with MW post regarding Hamed's marketability. Yes, what you say is correct - Hamed sold out MSG and MIGHT have been the first HBO non lightweight main event (not so sure, but could be). However, I don't even think it was a "love to hate" factor with Hamed and the states. He was well marketed by Warren and he received ALOT of press before his big US bow (against a well known if faded fighter). However, alot of the interest in Hamed was "is he for real", "fraud or Real Deal" as opposed to "this guy is the best boxer I have got to see him" or "this guy is a twat I am looking forward to see him sparked".... The interest in Hamed was somewhat similar to that of Tommy Morrison's - not so much a "novelty" thing (like Butterbean) but based on people intrigued by the hype and wanting to see is it geniune. I personally feel that they were still asking these questions by the Barrera fight.

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 25 Oct 2007, 05:34

MightyWarrior wrote: Plus McGuigen blatantly ducked Azumah Nelson.

A match with Nelson was in the works at super featherweight if Mcguigan had have gotten by Jim McDonnell

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 Oct 2007, 14:01

Which silly words are these, I don't recally Mcguigan making any gaffes.
You seem to have something of an agenda when it comes to McGuigan, not sure why, but not the first time you've had a pop.

In any case, I agree that McGuigan didn't deserve to be in the hall of fame, and but for a chance in the rules, wouldn't have made it in. Several people who are part of the voting committee, said they only voted him in, because he was the most deserving of the candidates they were presented with. His fame probably helped get him put forward for nomination, but his achievements certainly didn't merit him being inducted. If you're going to put McGuigan in, you could argue for the likes of Charlie Magri, or Maurice Hope, to name just two off the top of my head. What about John H Stracey, Jim Watt, Ken Buchanan, Alan Minter, John Conteh? All of these have claims at least as valid as McGuigans.

I would say that given the changed voting rules, it's almost certain Naz gets in there at some point, probably in the not too distance future. Especially as Naz was a big hit stateside, and the majority of the voters are yanks.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 Oct 2007, 14:03

ebeneezer wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote: Plus McGuigen blatantly ducked Azumah Nelson.
A match with Nelson was in the works at super featherweight if Mcguigan had have gotten by Jim McDonnell

McGuigan had plenty of opportunity to fight Nelson whilst he still held a belt, and wanted no part of it, that he fancied a shot after he was no longer champion says it all.

I like McGuigan, I really do, but he always fell strangely silent whenever Nelson's name was brought up.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Oct 2007, 14:09

Bungu was an outstanding fighter. Really good pressure fighter, excellent head movement, was considered the #1 at super bantam even after Barrera beat McKinney in that war and after Zaragoza beat McCullough...Bungu deserved to win all the close decisions he got, but he had no power and was a bit old when he moved up to face Naz at featherweight.

Naz is no hall of famer. He beat lots of very good fighters just past their primes and showed enough shakiness to suggest he'd get beaten vs someone outstanding who was in their 20s. Naz gave up his chance of being great when he abandoned his boxing and just became an off balance, lunging puncher.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 25 Oct 2007, 14:19

Whether or not you think he's a hall of famer, I'd lay money on Naz getting in there within the next 10 years. He certainly has more right to be in there than McGuigan.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 25 Oct 2007, 14:32

I think we have to consider ore than just the fights. Naz brought huge money to the featherweight division. Since Naz, featherweight (and super feather) has had big coverage and big fights and big stars breaking through.

McGuigan built up phenomenal support when he fought & was a positive social force in a troubled Ireland. Things like this have to stand for something as well.

Obviously he was done in by the Vegas heat, but his win over the great Pedroza was a memorable night of boxing (& top level stuff all the way) and 1 or 2 other wins proved him top level.

There's definitely ppl that get left out with bigger achievements. I have a big problem that Brian Mitchell doesn't get voted in. Long title reign at 130-lbs (starting around 1986), superlative skills and stamina, the South African won all his title defenses away from home, knew he'd never get another title shot if he lost his belt abroad (with the WBA oppositing Apartheid), fought Tony Lopez to a FOTY draw in 1992 in Lopez's hometown, shut the guy out in a rematch in Lopez's hometown to pick up the IBF belt. We will know him best for schooling Jim McDonnell in London (the same McDonnell who gave Azumah tooth & nail for ten rounds...)