1919 Jack Dempsey -vs- 1999 Lennox Lewis...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Straight up & down, head-to-head, the Dempsey that slayed Willard with a dizzying cocktail of speed, power & unbridled fury, pitted against the artfully defensive boxer behind the long, dominating jab.

It's a lot of real estate for Dempsey to penetrate - an 84" reach & one of the best big men in the division's history, a superb jab which Dempsey never liked in his opponents, & a big right hand behind it waiting for him that's levelled bigger men for the count.

For Lewis, he has an awful lot to contain. Dempsey is perhaps the most savage champion in HW history, his power & speed mean he'll only have to land hard once to end it, & Lewis may find tying this man up is like pitching a tent in a whirlwind. One good shot, he knows, is all it'll take for him to be KO'ed.

Any opinions?

[dempseyfire]

Dempsey by early KO.

Lewis's jab was decent but not great nor consistent enough to hold off Dempsey. A prime Dempsey was 10 times the fighter of Tua that Lennox was able to outbox for 12 rounds. Lewis never had to deal with a hard punching, super aggressive whirlwind bobbing and weaving fighter in the mold of Dempsey.

Fulton was basically a white version of Lennox by all accounts (great long jab, moved very well/fast on his feet for a man his size, lethal punching power, questionable whiskers) and he lasted 16 seconds. I do think Lewis was better, and thus he lasts longer . . .Dempsey TKO 2 Lewis.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I might be inclined to agree with you...

[dr_devious]

In that case, which heavyweights down the years would have beaten the peak Dempsey in 1919?

[dempseyfire]

In that case, which heavyweights down the years would have beaten the peak Dempsey in 1919?

I favor Johnson and Ali to both have enought speed and boxing savvy to outpoint Dempsey over the distance. I think Louis prevails in a firefight.
Possibly Liston would have the right combination of durability, power, and boxing ability to negate Dempsey.

I think Dempsey at his best could beat both Frazier and Marciano in absolutely BRUTAL fights. I think he'd beat Tyson at his own game and pretty much rip his heart out in a very dirty contest. Holmes was great but he always had to slow down and take some rounds off (which led him to getting in trouble vs Weaver, Shavers, Snipes) and I think vs Dempsey that spells a knockout loss in the later rounds.

[theone]

Lewis and Tyson destroy him in 1 round. Frazier does it 2, Marciano does it in 3.

[theone]

Lewis and Tyson destroy him in 1 round. Frazier does it 2, Marciano does it in 3.

Marciano? Dempsey would beat him.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I can envision Marciano getting in on Dempsey wild swings and catching him with short hard shots. Contary to popular belief Dempsey did not have a steel chin. Flynn knocked him out with one punch, both Carpantier and Brennan staggered him badly, and Firpo dropped him twice. Marciano hits a hell of alot harder than any of them.

[Robinson]

Fulton and Willard were nothing like Lewis, sure they were
6'4-6'5 but so what Lewis had alot more going for him than that.

When did Dempsey out box a truely elite fighter for 12 rounds ?

Not being to sacrileges here but if you put say a Jesse fergusson in with a Jess Willard and I am sure they would have done near as much damage as Dempsey did. Maybe in some more rounds, but could you see them losing to Willard ???

I can not see Dempsey beating Lewis...I am sorry to say this, but how ?
Oh McCall KO'd Lewis, so would Dempsey....oh but then of course...how about Tunney out boxing Dempsey, Tunney a LHW !!

The size and weight would be a BIG factor, Dempsey intensity and aggression would not be enough, Lewis would find him with the upper cut and right hand. Dempsey would have vicious spurts that would make the crowd stand in excitement, but I sincerly think that Lewis takes this in a decision or a late fight TKO win.

Just my thoughts...

Kym

[dempseyfire]

Lewis and Tyson destroy him in 1 round. Frazier does it 2, Marciano does it in 3.

Marciano? Dempsey would beat him.

Contary to popular belief Dempsey did not have a steel chin. .

Real smart there.

ONE stoppage loss, in dubious circumstances, in over 80 fights.

[dempseyfire]

Fulton and Willard were nothing like Lewis, sure they were
6'4-6'5 but so what Lewis had alot more going for him than that.

When did Dempsey out box a truely elite fighter for 12 rounds ?

Not being to sacrileges here but if you put say a Jesse fergusson in with a Jess Willard and I am sure they would have done near as much damage as Dempsey did. Maybe in some more rounds, but could you see them losing to Willard ???

I can not see Dempsey beating Lewis...I am sorry to say this, but how ?
Oh McCall KO'd Lewis, so would Dempsey....oh but then of course...how about Tunney out boxing Dempsey, Tunney a LHW !!

The size and weight would be a BIG factor, Dempsey intensity and aggression would not be enough, Lewis would find him with the upper cut and right hand. Dempsey would have vicious spurts that would make the crowd stand in excitement, but I sincerly think that Lewis takes this in a decision or a late fight TKO win.

Just my thoughts...

Kym

Tunney was one of the greatest fighters to ever lived, who by the time he fought Dempsey, was a HEAVYWEIGHT. The fact that old-fat ass middleweights like Toney can have success in the HW division nowadays seems to evade some people.

Jesse Ferguson beating Williard??? I don't see it. Williard was actually a very athletic man for his size, with one punch knockout power, an iron jaw, excellent stamina, and a quick ramrod jab. People don't think and see the film of Williard and Moran and think he seems to be fighting at a dirt-slow pace and with his arms low, but if you are a Heavyweight fighting 20 rounds, 45 rounds etc. you better not be bouncing around or keeping your hands high at all times or you'll be dead by round 17. For all of you posters who look at films of fighters pre-1920 and make ignorant rash generalizations . .THINK!!! There are reasons you see what you see. Lewis was fighting frikkin' 12 rounders and the big lug had his hands at his waists constantly.

[Goodnight, Irene]

In that case, which heavyweights down the years would have beaten the peak Dempsey in 1919?

-vs- Dempsey:

The Winners...

Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Evander Holyfield
Joe Louis

The Losers...

Riddick Bowe
Joe Frazier
Jack Johnson
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson

Hard To Call...

Larry Holmes
Jim Jeffries
Lennox Lewis
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson

[Goodnight, Irene]

"We'll have to disagree on this one. I can envision Marciano getting in on Dempsey wild swings and catching him with short hard shots. Contary to popular belief Dempsey did not have a steel chin. Flynn knocked him out with one punch, both Carpantier and Brennan staggered him badly, and Firpo dropped him twice. Marciano hits a hell of alot harder than any of them." -

This would be a barnburner but I would have to say if anyone in this fight throws wild it's Marciano, & if anyone punches short it's Dempsey. Dempsey is also quicker with his hands, sports a longer reach, & is a crisper puncher who is quicker out of the blocks than the more sluggish Marciano. Dempsey was tough, Marciano tougher. Both could bang alright. Chins were good, too.

IMO Dempsey's superior speed & sharper punching ends Marciano's campaign on cuts & swelling perhaps around the 5th or 6th, with both men getting off the canvas before the referee calls the fight. But whatever the outcome, I'd pay anything to see it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Fulton and Willard were nothing like Lewis, sure they were
6'4-6'5 but so what Lewis had alot more going for him than that.

When did Dempsey out box a truely elite fighter for 12 rounds ?

Not being to sacrileges here but if you put say a Jesse fergusson in with a Jess Willard and I am sure they would have done near as much damage as Dempsey did. Maybe in some more rounds, but could you see them losing to Willard ???

I can not see Dempsey beating Lewis...I am sorry to say this, but how ?
Oh McCall KO'd Lewis, so would Dempsey....oh but then of course...how about Tunney out boxing Dempsey, Tunney a LHW !!

The size and weight would be a BIG factor, Dempsey intensity and aggression would not be enough, Lewis would find him with the upper cut and right hand. Dempsey would have vicious spurts that would make the crowd stand in excitement, but I sincerly think that Lewis takes this in a decision or a late fight TKO win.

Just my thoughts...

Kym

When did Lewis outbox a truly elite fighter? Surely not David Tua. When he was in (or near to) his prime, Ray Mercer, a strong-chinned, hard-punching, gutsy fighter gave him absolute hell & by some people's measure beat Lewis.

For me personally, I guess it just depends on how much emphasis you put on Lewis never getting up off the canvas to win (or even survive) a fight. A champion who never got off the canvas to win has a lot to answer for in my book & something of a black mark against their name, you may feel differently. But against a puncher like Dempsey --- & a proficient one at that --- it is such a serious risk.

Having said that, Dempsey hated opponents with good jabs & when Lewis is throwing 25 or 30 a round he's very hard to get a handle on. Throw in Lewis' enormous reach advantage & broad skill-set & Dempsey is going to have to be at the top of his game to get home. I'm not too sure who would win this fight, I may slightly lean toward Dempsey, but it would be only slightly. I can envision Lewis flat on his back on the canvas & that does help.

[HomicideHenry]

Dempsey could beat Lewis, that is if Lewis wasn't in tip top form. For Lewis to beat Dempsey he would have to be constantly active with that jab and using constant lateral foot movement, as Dempsey never stopped chasing down his opponents, never backed up and Dempsey was quick as a cat. Not to include that Dempsey also had his share fair wealth of ring science.

With the exception of Holyfield, there isn't any other Heavyweight, besides Ray Mercer, who gave Lewis fits and hell in the ring. For my money Dempsey hit harder than Rahman and McCall and was just as gifted as Holyfield in toughness, combinations, over all ability...except Dempsey was better defensively and more ferocious.

He was a hard man to catch. Also throw in his success against men much larger, faster and over all physically superior to him. Willard, Fulton, Morris, Firpo were bigger and stronger; Carpentier, Gibbons, and the like were supposedly greater boxers and faster...yet he beat them.

I would pick Dempsey to beat Lewis.

As far as a Dempsey-Marciano battle is concerned, that would be the biggest slug fest I could ever invision. Someone sooner or later would be knocked out and both men would prolly be in a hospital for months afterwards lol. Greatest fight I could ever imagine.

Marciano has more power, possibly tougher, better conditioned. Dempsey was more ferocious, faster, put combinations together better as well. It would all come down to who would fade out first...it's been said Dempsey would fade out a bit in the middle rounds, while in Marciano's case, he seemed to get a higher volume of punches and aggressiveness as time wore on.

I think Marciano could do it, that is if you had the iron stomached referee's of the Jefferies time who would keep a fight going on til a man was absoloutely gone. That way Marciano wouldn't necessarily lose on cuts. It would more or less be a fight to the finish, so to speak.

Any other way...I'd say Dempsey would win on cuts, or get a close decision win over Marciano.

[dempseyfire]

Dempsey could beat Lewis, that is if Lewis wasn't in tip top form. For Lewis to beat Dempsey he would have to be constantly active with that jab and using constant lateral foot movement, .

Lewis was never Larry Holmes . . .he was never able to constantly move and throw 40 jabs a round. Unless you think Lewis pawing and poking at a fat midget in Tua is some all time great performance.

If you watch footage of Big Bill Tate, you can see a very large 6'6 HW with a fine jab and good lateral movement. And this guy was Jack's sparring partner . . he wasn't even considered a contender.

Lennox had fatigue issues . . .Dempsey did not. The moment Lewis decides to play lazy with Dempsey (as he did vs Mavoric, Mercer, Holyfield and he got caught and hurt in all those fights) the fight is over.

[theone]

Marciano? Dempsey would beat him.

Contary to popular belief Dempsey did not have a steel chin. .

Real smart there.

ONE stoppage loss, in dubious circumstances, in over 80 fights.

So what? I never said he had a weak chin, its just not as great as most try to make out. I already gave you examples of that.

[dempseyfire]

Contary to popular belief Dempsey did not have a steel chin. .

Real smart there.

ONE stoppage loss, in dubious circumstances, in over 80 fights.

So what? I never said he had a weak chin, its just not as great as most try to make out. I already gave you examples of that.

I would say, in an era of 2-3 week training camps and 6 ounce gloves, getting only stopped once in over 80 fights constitutes a steel chin.

[dr_devious]

In that case, which heavyweights down the years would have beaten the peak Dempsey in 1919?

-vs- Dempsey:

The Winners...

Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Evander Holyfield
Joe Louis

The Losers...

Riddick Bowe
Joe Frazier
Jack Johnson
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson

Hard To Call...

Larry Holmes
Jim Jeffries
Lennox Lewis
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson

Explain please. Why do you give Holyfield a better chance against Dempsey than the others? Guys like Holmes, Liston and Lewis have very definite physical advantages over Dempsey, more so than Holyfield. Why do you think Dempsey beats Jack Johnson?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yes they do, which is why I based Holyfield beating Dempsey on the more intangible aspects of the fighters, i.e. heart. Holyfield had more of this attribute than most.

With Holyfield, I would not be surprised if he did a competent job of smothering Dempsey's whirlwind assault & called on his winning combination of heart & chin ride out the tougher moments, which may include a knockdown, since Holyfield was always hittable. I think he may frustrate Dempsey with his physical strength & perhaps even his dirty tactics as well (I know not everyone agrees but I'm comfortable with calling Holyfield dirty when he needs to be).

I think he rides out the storm & survives Dempsey's best to steal the win, though I'm not certain he could stop even a tired Dempsey. Maybe, maybe not.

In the case of Liston, I just feel that one man could blast out the other. Liston with the long reach & powerhouse jab, extra weight & strength, strong chin, against Dempsey who is faster, tougher & even more ferocious.

With Holmes, I can see him outboxing Dempsey. I can see Dempsey getting inside where Holmes couldn't fight to save himself.

Against Lewis, I already outlined my feelings.

Versus Johnson, I just don't see that he had what it takes to keep Dempsey off him. The fighter's in Johnson's era --- who were usually visibly smaller than him --- were one-two punchers devoid of combinations. Johnson was able to step back & pick them off. His feet are flat, he's not the mover Tunney was, & I don't see him picking off a rampaging Dempsey, who showed the ability to hurt boxers & sluggers both. He was also floored (& visibly hurt) by Middleweight Stanley Ketchel. Whatever the deal prior to the fight, Johnson was dropped & hurt (he stumbles slightly on getting back up, though obviously recovered quickly) you have to wonder how that chin of his will respond to Dempsey's power in combination. You may see Johnson tying him up & not getting hit. I don't think he's got the energy or urgency needed. Dempsey via KO IMO.

Hope that clarifies it, I know it was a bit long.

[dempseyfire]

Yes they do, which is why I based Holyfield beating Dempsey on the more intangible aspects of the fighters, i.e. heart. Holyfield had more of this attribute than most.

With Holyfield, I would not be surprised if he did a competent job of smothering Dempsey's whirlwind assault & called on his winning combination of heart & chin ride out the tougher moments, which may include a knockdown, since Holyfield was always hittable. I think he may frustrate Dempsey with his physical strength & perhaps even his dirty tactics as well (I know not everyone agrees but I'm comfortable with calling Holyfield dirty when he needs to be).

I think he rides out the storm & survives Dempsey's best to steal the win, though I'm not certain he could stop even a tired Dempsey. Maybe, maybe not.

In the case of Liston, I just feel that one man could blast out the other. Liston with the long reach & powerhouse jab, extra weight & strength, strong chin, against Dempsey who is faster, tougher & even more ferocious.

With Holmes, I can see him outboxing Dempsey. I can see Dempsey getting inside where Holmes couldn't fight to save himself.

Against Lewis, I already outlined my feelings.

Versus Johnson, I just don't see that he had what it takes to keep Dempsey off him. The fighter's in Johnson's era --- who were usually visibly smaller than him --- were one-two punchers devoid of combinations. Johnson was able to step back & pick them off. His feet are flat, he's not the mover Tunney was, & I don't see him picking off a rampaging Dempsey, who showed the ability to hurt boxers & sluggers both. He was also floored (& visibly hurt) by Middleweight Stanley Ketchel. Whatever the deal prior to the fight, Johnson was dropped & hurt (he stumbles slightly on getting back up, though obviously recovered quickly) you have to wonder how that chin of his will respond to Dempsey's power in combination. You may see Johnson tying him up & not getting hit. I don't think he's got the energy or urgency needed. Dempsey via KO IMO.

Hope that clarifies it, I know it was a bit long.

So Evander is going to "outheart" Dempsey? How did Evander ever show more heart than Holmes or Frazier? Holmes no inside game? Tell that to Mike Weaver who almost got his head knocked off with the uppercut.

Dempsey came up in a much tougher era than Evander, where heart and determination wern't standout traits like in Holyfield's era of overeating and substance abusing Heavyweights. Today we state how remarkable it was that Evander put forth such a great effort vs Bowe in the 3rd fight with Hepatitis. By comparison, Billy Miske fought Jack Dempsey while he was in the early stages of Bright's Disease! (which, for those who don't know, was an extremely painful condition of the liver which in that time led to death)

Look I like Holyfield a lot but no man who has life and death with an overweight Qawi, Dokes, and Mercer is beating Dempsey. Holyfield's strength?? I have no doubt Morris, Williard, and Firpo were all stronger than Evander. Dempsey could stand his own in the clinch with 6'6 250 lb Heavyweights . . .I don't think he's going to lose any sleep over Holyfield's strength. As far as dirty tactics go, Dempsey was the KING of fighting dirty. Jack will match him elbow for elbow and headbutt to headbutt.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Didn't you have Johnson to outpoint Dempsey though? The same Johnson who, in his prime, lost to Marvin Hart (which if you've seen him, was a largely forgettable fighter) He's a flat-footed fighter who never faced real multi-punch combination throwers. Dempsey was a firestorm in the ring. He would have clobbered Johnson, & how.

I don't see Dempsey blowing Holyfield out early. No one ever did, keep in mind, & his competition was largely pretty impressive. Early is Dempsey's best shot in any fight, I don't discount that he can win late, because he did at times, but his best chance is to get you early & no one ever got Holyfield early. He holds & smothers & wrestles Dempsey ala Tyson in the early going with some effectiveness IMO. Yes, I know, that Tyson is no Dempsey (I'm not even suitably convinced a prime Tyson could beat Dempsey) but it was at least a case of a strong-chinned, hard-hitting fighter who was, btw, much heavier than Dempsey, though lacked the heart & desire.

I think Johnson beating Dempsey is less feasible than Holyfield doing it. But, again, you may see Johnson tying him up & outpointing him. I just can't.

[KO Artist]

Straight up & down, head-to-head, the Dempsey that slayed Willard with a dizzying cocktail of speed, power & unbridled fury, pitted against the artfully defensive boxer behind the long, dominating jab.

It's a lot of real estate for Dempsey to penetrate - an 84" reach & one of the best big men in the division's history, a superb jab which Dempsey never liked in his opponents, & a big right hand behind it waiting for him that's levelled bigger men for the count.

For Lewis, he has an awful lot to contain. Dempsey is perhaps the most savage champion in HW history, his power & speed mean he'll only have to land hard once to end it, & Lewis may find tying this man up is like pitching a tent in a whirlwind. One good shot, he knows, is all it'll take for him to be KO'ed.

Any opinions?

I dont know that you can compare them.

Whats Dempsey? 185, and Lewis 240? Thats an unfair fight, mate, particularly wit Lewis' modern traning, nutrition and athletic ability.

P4P Dempsey may or may not be better.

Lets assume Dempsey has modeern nutrition and some weights. What would he weigh, 200? 205? No more than that.

Why not Dempsey at 195 v Frazier at 203

and Lewis 240 v Bowe at 235?

[Goodnight, Irene]

When did Lewis outbox a truly elite fighter? Surely not David Tua. When he was in (or near to) his prime, Ray Mercer, a strong-chinned, hard-punching, gutsy fighter gave him absolute hell & by some people's measure beat Lewis.

When did Dempsey beat a truly elite heavyweight. Surely not Risko, or Willard, or Gibbons, or Firpo, or... pretty much anyone.

You need to go back & look at my post in context, Decagon. Someone asked which truly elite fighter Dempsey defeated, & I was posing the same question to them in reference to Lewis, not as a general statement.

To KO Artist...

Are you saying then that Rahman vs Dempsey isn't a fair fight either? Rahman was 230+. Would he have handled Dempsey with such ease a fight between them would be considered unfair?

Dempsey nearly killed Willard who was about Lewis' size. You may argue, correctly, that Willard was no Lewis. But I'm not arguing that Dempsey would do to Lewis what he did to Willard. Dempsey didn't even break a sweat in annihilating a man some 80lbs heavier than him, & it was no fluke. He preferred the bigger men, stating they were easier to hit.

Do you think Lewis' chin would stand up to Dempsey's punch because of the weight difference?

I can see both men winning but I can't see this as a mismatch simply because Lewis outweighs Dempsey. He's just not that good a fighter to be considered better by weight alone.

[dempseyfire]

Didn't you have Johnson to outpoint Dempsey though? The same Johnson who, in his prime, lost to Marvin Hart (which if you've seen him, was a largely forgettable fighter) He's a flat-footed fighter who never faced real multi-punch combination throwers. Dempsey was a firestorm in the ring. He would have clobbered Johnson, & how.

I don't see Dempsey blowing Holyfield out early. No one ever did, keep in mind, & his competition was largely pretty impressive. Early is Dempsey's best shot in any fight, I don't discount that he can win late, because he did at times, but his best chance is to get you early & no one ever got Holyfield early. He holds & smothers & wrestles Dempsey ala Tyson in the early going with some effectiveness IMO. Yes, I know, that Tyson is no Dempsey (I'm not even suitably convinced a prime Tyson could beat Dempsey) but it was at least a case of a strong-chinned, hard-hitting fighter who was, btw, much heavier than Dempsey, though lacked the heart & desire.

I think Johnson beating Dempsey is less feasible than Holyfield doing it. But, again, you may see Johnson tying him up & outpointing him. I just can't.

Interesting, considering there is no film of Marvin Hart to speak of (at least that survives, I'm pretty certain).

Johnson did face combination punchers, and could fight flat-footed or on his toes (there are times vs Ketchel and Moran Johnson does get up on his toes, but why dance around if you don't have to??) . Dempsey didn't "invent" combination punching or anything of the sort. Sam McVey was very much a pressure fighter in the mold of Dempsey and Johnson handled him with ease. Langford you can see from the film clearly threw combinations. As did Burns as you can see from the film pre-Johnson but vs the counter-punching and defense of Johnson Burns was completely impotent. But I'd rather not have this thread turn into a Johnson debate.

Going back to Holyfield, if you look at films of Dempsey late in fights vs Brennan and Gibbons, you can see he was able to keep a VERY fast pace throughout an entire fight, whereas the bulked up Heavyweight Evander always had to take some rounds off. Dempsey doesn't have to catch Holyfield early at all. He would grind Holyfield down over the course of the fight. If Holyfield wanted to make it a mauling, inside fight, that would suit Dempsey perfectly, as he was an extremely effective in-fighter (as well as even dirtier than the Real Deal)

[Robinson]

Personally I think Willard is over rated, sure he out weighed Dempsey by 80lb, so what...
I am far from being a Jack dempsey and I beat inside of a round a guy who was a fit and outweighed me by 100lbs.

The fact that Willard was 6'5 and so heavy is pretty much the reason why he was so successful. He was big white boy thrown at a tired Johnson as the ultimate realisation of the the great white hope.

Just on sheer athleticism alone the bigger guys in the division of today are much better than the awkward farm hands of yester year who get a nod by anyone nostalgic who longs for better times and gladly looks at the past.