1919 Jack Dempsey -vs- 1999 Lennox Lewis...

[dempseyfire]

You need to go back & look at my post in context, Decagon. Someone asked which truly elite fighter Dempsey defeated, & I was posing the same question to them in reference to Lewis, not as a general statement.

So, you were basically passing on the question, right? Who did Jack Dempsey beat who was that much better than the Holyfield of 1999, the Tua of 2000, the Mercer of 1996?

I would put Fulton, Miske of the first fight, and Sharkey as better fighters than Mercer, Tua, and a washed up Holyfield.

To the other post Williard had a more than just size on his size, but this poster seems to just keep ignorantly writing off the entire era so I'll just let sleeping dogs slumber.

[HomicideHenry]

Oh whatever Decagon, anyone with enough guts and a punch could knock Michael Grant out ffs. Golota was scared shitless against Grant, as was the many other hand picked dead men that Grant fought before Lewis. He was no more than another manufactured fighter like Morris, Fulton and others who were big, ponderous, white hopes.

I'd bet 10-1 the Boston Gob, if his priorities were in check, would have beaten Grant.

[Goodnight, Irene]

DempseyFire...

I know I've seen footage of Hart in the ring against an opponent in a doco with a French narrator (Maybe Kings Of The Ring?) but we'll save Dempsey-Johnson for another time, at any rate.

As for Dempsey-Holyfield, I don't see why my prediction is so far-fetched. I'm not making a case for Henry Akinwande or Fres Oquendo or someone of that class. We're talking about a prime Evander Holyfield. Dempsey was a competent dirty fighter (just a plain bad ass, in fact) but I don't see him possessing the same subtlety with fouls Holyfield makes work for him. Maybe Dempsey can stop him, but I don't see Holyfield getting counted out. I have a hard time seeing Dempsey getting KO'd as well. But I think Holyfield can outpoint him, slip between boxing & trench-fighting, & absorb Dempsey's best shots along the way (Maybe not without incident, but absorb them nonetheless). Just curious --- how big an upset would you consider it if, hypothetically, Holyfield found a way to win?

Decagon...

No, I wasn't, "basically just passing on the question." But your presumptuous post is much welcomed. David Tua's performance was laughable against Lennox Lewis. In the old days, he would have had his purse withheld, & rightly so. Look at him against Ike Ibeabuchi, it's like two different people. No surprise after fighting Lewis he faded into oblivion. Lewis enjoyed all manner of physical advantages over Ray Mercer as well, yet suffered through life-&-death to eek out a Majority Decision. His first performance against a shot Holyfield was as impressive as his effort in the rematch was contemptible. A pair of nights very good & equally bad for Lewis.

As to who Dempsey beat, DempseyFire beat me to it, & I wouldn't disagree with who he identified. Michael Grant. Priceless.

[dagosd2000]

Tyson had the confidence,the power,and the right trainer at this point in his career. He admitted it himself that after he lost to Douglas he began to unravel. He was scared against Holyfield,that's why he bit him. Lewis wasn't intimidated either. After the Douglas fight the bully was exposed. Dempsey wasn't scared of anyone. He wanted to fight Wills,but Kearns held him back.

[dempseyfire]

DempseyFire...

I know I've seen footage of Hart in the ring against an opponent in a doco with a French narrator (Maybe Kings Of The Ring?) but we'll save Dempsey-Johnson for another time, at any rate.

As for Dempsey-Holyfield, I don't see why my prediction is so far-fetched. I'm not making a case for Henry Akinwande or Fres Oquendo or someone of that class. We're talking about a prime Evander Holyfield. Dempsey was a competent dirty fighter (just a plain bad ass, in fact) but I don't see him possessing the same subtlety with fouls Holyfield makes work for him. Maybe Dempsey can stop him, but I don't see Holyfield getting counted out. I have a hard time seeing Dempsey getting KO'd as well. But I think Holyfield can outpoint him, slip between boxing & trench-fighting, & absorb Dempsey's best shots along the way (Maybe not without incident, but absorb them nonetheless). Just curious --- how big an upset would you consider it if, hypothetically, Holyfield found a way to win?

Decagon...

No, I wasn't, "basically just passing on the question." But your presumptuous post is much welcomed. David Tua's performance was laughable against Lennox Lewis. In the old days, he would have had his purse withheld, & rightly so. Look at him against Ike Ibeabuchi, it's like two different people. No surprise after fighting Lewis he faded into oblivion. Lewis enjoyed all manner of physical advantages over Ray Mercer as well, yet suffered through life-&-death to eek out a Majority Decision. His first performance against a shot Holyfield was as impressive as his effort in the rematch was contemptible. A pair of nights very good & equally bad for Lewis.

As to who Dempsey beat, DempseyFire beat me to it, & I wouldn't disagree with who he identified. Michael Grant. Priceless.

I personally would consider it a fairly big upset. I just don't see Holyfield as possessing the tools to beat a fighter like Dempsey. Very good, but not great, boxing ability. Fair, but not outstanding, punching power. Fairly good, but not great, stamina (althought it was usually better than that of the overweight guys he fought at HW). Holyfield's big meal ticket was his ability combined with his heart and durability, and in Dempsey's time that's not a special attribute . . .from their fights one can see Brennan, Carpantier (look at the Tunney fight ), Williard etc. were as tough and durable as you could get. You had to be to rise to the top in that era . . there were no coddled 22-0 prospects getting title shots.

I think you're mistaken regarding Dempsey's ability and dirtiness on the inside . . .Holyfield had nothing on Dempsey in regards to the rough stuff. Out of the fighters I picked Dempsey to beat, I can more easily see Foreman and Holmes beating the Manassa Mauler than Holyfield. But hey in HW boxing strange things can happen!

[Goodnight, Irene]

One day in the distant future they're going to find a way to make these fights some kind of reality & cash in on all the money such match-ups would produce. & when they do, I'm going to give you some big odds for Holyfield-Dempsey & clean up!

[Seamus]

Jess Willard got his shot at the title when he had just 22 wins. Not to mention his 4 losses.

[The Great John L]

Jess Willard got his shot at the title when he had just 22 wins. Not to mention his 4 losses.

Yes, and he fought Pelkey, Smith, McCarty, Kearns and Morris who were all top contenders, as well as a number of other solid journeymen. I'm assuming that your post was in response to dempseys comment about there being no coddled 22-0 guys getting title shots during Dempsey's era. I would hardly call Willard coddled.

[Ezzard]

Lewis struggled with Holyfield in 1999. Evander was a boxer who built himself up from 185-190 to be a heavyweight so I don't think teh size difference would mean that much here.

A prime Dempsey would be too much for the 1999 Holyfield IMO.

Lewis has a lot of advantages it's true but Dempsey's punching is very underrated. He had great technique and accuracy. He also put his punches together well. Lewis's KO defeats came from right hands but Briggs staggered him with a left hook so Jack could get to him.

Dempsey would go looking for an early KO. Lewis might take him out with a right hand or he might try and fight cautiously early on. Dempsey wouldn't fold though as the fight wore on. Jack would also be able to set a pace that Lewis would struggle to live with.

I can't see Lewis winning on points. Dempsey would simply outwork him. Lewis would have to get to Jack and stop him, but opening up leaves him vulnerable. i'd have to go with Dempsey.

[fourreal]

I think Dempsey was dead by then, so the fight could not have been made.

I know, how about we debate the question of the 1939 Chicago bears playing the 2007 New england patriots ????

Pretty much an equally stupid question, and no doubt, there are those who would have strong opinions both ways