NAZ - Hall of Fame?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Which silly words are these, I don't recally Mcguigan making any gaffes.

You must have short memory then, mate. He always uses big words he doesn't understand in an attempt to make himself sound smarter than he is. As for gaffes? Off the top of my head how about the great Shane Mosley v Yori Boy Campas rematch he went on about several years back?

You seem to have something of an agenda when it comes to McGuigan, not sure why, but not the first time you've had a pop.

And won't be the last either. I posted the full story on doghouse last year if you want the reason why...

I don't recall, anyway, none of my business really. I think McGuigan is certainly more articulate than most doing his job, though admittedly, the competition isn't exactly stellar. Just wondered why you were always scything into him? Everyone makes mistakes, McGuigan doesn't make that many that I've noticed personally.

Anyway, I agree he shouldn't be in the hall of fame, but if he is, then Naz definetly belongs.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think we have to consider ore than just the fights. Naz brought huge money to the featherweight division. Since Naz, featherweight (and super feather) has had big coverage and big fights and big stars breaking through.

McGuigan built up phenomenal support when he fought & was a positive social force in a troubled Ireland. Things like this have to stand for something as well.

Obviously he was done in by the Vegas heat, but his win over the great Pedroza was a memorable night of boxing (& top level stuff all the way) and 1 or 2 other wins proved him top level.

There's definitely ppl that get left out with bigger achievements. I have a big problem that Brian Mitchell doesn't get voted in. Long title reign at 130-lbs (starting around 1986), superlative skills and stamina, the South African won all his title defenses away from home, knew he'd never get another title shot if he lost his belt abroad (with the WBA oppositing Apartheid), fought Tony Lopez to a FOTY draw in 1992 in Lopez's hometown, shut the guy out in a rematch in Lopez's hometown to pick up the IBF belt. We will know him best for schooling Jim McDonnell in London (the same McDonnell who gave Azumah tooth & nail for ten rounds...)

Yes, after all, it's called the hall of FAME. McGuigan was big in the UK and America to an extent, and represented something more than boxing.

Brian Mitchell is indeed overlooked, and is likely to remain so, because South Africa is not considered a 'boxing country.'

Must get hold of a copy of the McDonnell fight against Nelson, a long time since I've seen it, but I recall it being a real humdinger.

[MightyWarrior]

Plus McGuigen blatantly ducked Azumah Nelson.

A match with Nelson was in the works at super featherweight if Mcguigan had have gotten by Jim McDonnell

McGuigan had plenty of opportunity to fight Nelson whilst he still held a belt, and wanted no part of it, that he fancied a shot after he was no longer champion says it all.

I like McGuigan, I really do, but he always fell strangely silent whenever Nelson's name was brought up.

I reckon it was actually Tony the tiger Lopez being lined up for McGuigen if he beat McDonnell - i remember a great Box news cover showing Jim celebrating the win, with the headline EYE ON THE TIGER. I dont think Barry ever called out Nelson, and you cant blame him for that I suppose: Azumah would have wrecked him.

[KO Artist]

He's got my vote (and, yes, I do get to vote on IBHOF)

He beat champions of WBO, IBF, WBU, WBA, and WBC, won EBU title in 12th fight (eat your heart out Amir!), dominated a division for 6 years which is longer than Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Ricky Hatton, Roy Jones Junior and pretty much everyone else you can think of did.

And, quite honestly, if that Irish bloke with the silly words from that gay cooking programme gets in - we all deserve consideration!!!!!

Naz did not dominate the division for 6 years. In fact I'm not sure he ever dominated it.

Surely, your comments about McGuigan are tongue in cheek?

No, I meant every word.

FACT: McGuigan is one of the least deserving fighters in the HoF, he lost to a journeyman in Steve Cruz whereas Naz lost to ALT in Marco.

FACT: McGuigan uses silly words he doesn't understand when doing his rubbish pundit bit on ITV/Sky/wherever

FACT: Cooking is for poofs!

Did you not work on seconds out some time ago? If you did you have got some neck critiscising McGuigan's journalism. Your work was no better thn his.

You seem a bit harsh on McGuigan, who is a nice bloke, has a genuine passion for the sport, and has done more for it than you have.

Have a day off, McGuigan is a legend, wheras you are a hack

[KO Artist]

I think McGuigan was rightly included at least in part because of his contribution to the health of this nation, he was a unifying force, at least temporarily in Ireland.

However, he was also a devil of a fighter. He would unquestionnably have been competitive or better with Hamed. He would, but for the shocking management of his clash with Cruz, potentially been a belt holder for longer too. Though he too, failed to face some illustrious contemporaries didn't he?

The thing that sticks in my craw about Hamed's career, isn't the loss or the instant retirement once he was booed. It was the avoidance of JMM when he was WBO number one contender.

It depends on the criteria for getting in I guess. Naz lit up the featherweight division like no-one else, and turned it into a multi million pound division. No featherweight before him had cracked the million dollar mark, and you could say he paved the way for the type of purses featherweights like MAB and Morales make now.

He might have been the first fighter below lightweight to feature on HBO as a main event.

I'd put him in there just for that alone.

You could say he ducked Marquez, but I'm sure that was more about dollars than anything else. Why take on a killer like Barrera if he was scared of losing?

Plus McGuigen blatantly ducked Azumah Nelson.

Naz, and Fanny Steward, thought Barerra was shot, Rob.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I don't think Steward did, not judging by the comments he made during that documentary on Naz, when he was fannying around getting his hair cut into the correct style for the fight. Manny seemed very concerned in a way he would surely not have been if he thought Barrera was shot.

[stujones]

I don't think Steward did, not judging by the comments he made during that documentary on Naz, when he was fannying around getting his hair cut into the correct style for the fight. Manny seemed very concerned in a way he would surely not have been if he thought Barrera was shot.

I didn't see that Documentary untill very recently - but what I do remember was Manny Stewards commentry on the Barrera vs Salud fight (before Naz).... He was VERY impressed, almost to the degree of shitting himself at the thought of Marco and Hamed fighting.

[KO Artist]

I edited SecondsOut back when it was good, yes. My work as a journalist for SecondsOut, Boxing Monthly and any other of the two or three dozen publications I’ve written for speaks for itself, pal.

No-one ghost writes, corrects or otherwise does my work for me, put it that way. And I call it how I see it, not how my paymaster of the moment wants me to see it.

McGuigan a nice bloke? You worked with him?

"Hack?" I like to think I've hacked into a few unearned reps in my time, thanks.

Sounds like you are a potential legend in your own mind.

Your work that I have seen is nothing special, and certainly nobody I spreak to who follows the sports has ever mentioned you. You are just a run of the mill writer. You're not the next A J Leibling, Harry Mullan or Claude Abrams, for that matter.

You sound as if you are of the opinion that you were the backbone of seconds out. It is not a website that I have ever relied on for articles or news, as I find this forum has always been much better, though seconds out has good links to other news.

From what I understand visitor numbers and sales on seconds out have increased dramatically since you left.

Incidentally, I have worked with McGuigan a few times on charity projects, going back to late 1989. He is sound as a pound. Its a pity you thought it appropraite to be slagging him off on here.

[stujones]

By all accounts Barry makes a nice Mash Potato also - surely that sealed it.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think the point being made, is that you are openly denigrating McGuigan, who whatever his career since fighting, was a genuinely brave man who got in the ring and fought for a living. That doesn't make him a saint by any stretch, but your attack on him appears to be very personal, and making assertions that he is an inarticulate bumbling fool, are simply not warranted. I know when someone is mangling the english language, and McGuigan clearly isn't, that's not to say he's the most erudite commentator on the sport, but he's far, far from the worst.

Yes, he may do the bidding of his paymasters, but he's hardly alone in that is he? There's plenty of others who have hyped their networks poster boys to the hilt.

[Autobarn]

I think we have to consider ore than just the fights. Naz brought huge money to the featherweight division. Since Naz, featherweight (and super feather) has had big coverage and big fights and big stars breaking through.

McGuigan built up phenomenal support when he fought & was a positive social force in a troubled Ireland. Things like this have to stand for something as well.

Obviously he was done in by the Vegas heat, but his win over the great Pedroza was a memorable night of boxing (& top level stuff all the way) and 1 or 2 other wins proved him top level.

There's definitely ppl that get left out with bigger achievements. I have a big problem that Brian Mitchell doesn't get voted in. Long title reign at 130-lbs (starting around 1986), superlative skills and stamina, the South African won all his title defenses away from home, knew he'd never get another title shot if he lost his belt abroad (with the WBA oppositing Apartheid), fought Tony Lopez to a FOTY draw in 1992 in Lopez's hometown, shut the guy out in a rematch in Lopez's hometown to pick up the IBF belt. We will know him best for schooling Jim McDonnell in London (the same McDonnell who gave Azumah tooth & nail for ten rounds...)

Yes, after all, it's called the hall of FAME. McGuigan was big in the UK and America to an extent, and represented something more than boxing.

Brian Mitchell is indeed overlooked, and is likely to remain so, because South Africa is not considered a 'boxing country.'

Must get hold of a copy of the McDonnell fight against Nelson, a long time since I've seen it, but I recall it being a real humdinger.

was indeed one of Nelson's great fights

[stujones]

James,

Nelson vs McDonald is often shown on Channell 5 late night in its entirety and also occasionally on ESPN classic.

Great fight, but far from vintage Nelson.

[ebeneezer]

He's got my vote (and, yes, I do get to vote on IBHOF)

He beat champions of WBO, IBF, WBU, WBA, and WBC, won EBU title in 12th fight (eat your heart out Amir!), dominated a division for 6 years which is longer than Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Ricky Hatton, Roy Jones Junior and pretty much everyone else you can think of did.

And, quite honestly, if that Irish bloke with the silly words from that gay cooking programme gets in - we all deserve consideration!!!!!

Go back to Power Slam magazine and write about sweaty men play fighting you specky twat.

[thepocketrocket]

The amount of revisionism on this board is ridiculous..Verballistic put it brilliantly, i can really add much..

You have to remember that Johnson was there for the taking(had a war with crappy Badillo)

Vasquez was shot(I saw the Rios fight, it was sad)

Kelley was old as the hills and was seen as there for the taking

I could go on but did you ever go into a fight thinking Naz was fighting someone who could really do serious damage to him..or was the timing just right for everyone??

So on MERIT Naz doesnt deserve to be Hall of fame but on IMPACT he does....

The man changed the face of Featherweight Boxing, he made it good for the average fan to watch..was it 'right place, right time'? maybe but he was the spearhead...

On MERIT Barry doesnt deserve it but on IMPACT he does..he brought communities who at the time were killing each other together, he may have been the first to do that post Bloody Sunday..i dont want to eulogise but I think barry HELPED bring peace to Northern Ireland, for the hes more than welcome in the HOF

[KO Artist]

I edited SecondsOut back when it was good, yes. My work as a journalist for SecondsOut, Boxing Monthly and any other of the two or three dozen publications I’ve written for speaks for itself, pal.

No-one ghost writes, corrects or otherwise does my work for me, put it that way. And I call it how I see it, not how my paymaster of the moment wants me to see it.

McGuigan a nice bloke? You worked with him?

"Hack?" I like to think I've hacked into a few unearned reps in my time, thanks.

Sounds like you are a potential legend in your own mind.

Your work that I have seen is nothing special, and certainly nobody I spreak to who follows the sports has ever mentioned you. You are just a run of the mill writer. You're not the next A J Leibling, Harry Mullan or Claude Abrams, for that matter.

Tell you what, you post links to your top five articles and I'll do the same. Special? I've earned a good living from writing - and writing only - since age of 21. That's pretty special in today's day and age. And not all my work is in boxing and not all my boxing work appears under my name - think on that for a while.
You sound as if you are of the opinion that you were the backbone of seconds out.

Yep. Sad to say, it's a complete waste of time going there nowadays. Not just because I left, there are other factors, but it is a shadow of its former self.
From what I understand visitor numbers and sales on seconds out have increased dramatically since you left.

LOL! Know I know you are a keyboard warrior who only pretends to be in the biz.

Incidentally, I have worked with McGuigan a few times on charity projects, going back to late 1989. He is sound as a pound. Its a pity you thought it appropraite to be slagging him off on here.

Bollocks. I am not much for him, no. Others don't like Floyd Mayweather but I've always found him to be a great guy to hang out with. You take people as you find them,...

You say you have earned a good living, good luck to you. But that really is a subjective matter.

How could I publish 5 articles? I am not a writer. I am a customer of Boxing monthly, I have boxed, it is the only sport I have ever follwoed, so I know what I am talking about.

You are over emphahsing your importance in relation to seconds out.

Anyway, we could go on for years, to and fro.

All I will say is that in launching a personal attack, on this forum, on one of the nicest guys in boxing (McGuigan), you showed that, without doubt, you have no class whatsoever.

End of story for me.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I am pretty sure that McGuigan isn't the most informed of pundits, after all he's not a journalist, even if he does write a column. That's not in dispute. He does however understand boxing, as he was a fighter himself, and is fairly articulate when he puts his statements together. Barry does often toe the line, which is a shame, but I do recall him being quite scathing about Khan post Limond.

My point about it being called the hall of fame, was that fighters with a big impact get into the hall of fame, even if their achievements weren't that great. I'm not sure I agree with that being the case, but there we are.

I totally agree that they need to change the method of inducting people. As for 'commercial reasons' that too I understand, but I think it is unfortunate that the Hall of Fame is being cheapened by that. What's the name of the guy who runs it, is it Ed Brophy? Is it his personal concern? If so, that's a shame, because it is making a mockery of the hall of fame, if fighters are being inducted every year just to make sure his ongoing concern makes money, kind of defeats the object of having a hall of fame in the first place.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I will check Hauser's article, though it's likely to be preaching to the converted, as I'm already in agreement.

Tom Gerbasi at maxboxing wrote something along the same lines last year I think it was, stating how he was pissed off at having to induct McGuigan, because he had to induct someone.

My feeling is that the hall of fame shouldn't be owned by one person, it should be a part of the sport. The problem is, boxing doesn't have a governing body like FIFA, NFL, NBL, yet another example of how boxing being the only major global sport without an international governing body causes problems.

My point about Barry is that he is a 'mush.' He is hired as much for his name value and fame as his talent as a broadcaster. That's to be expected, TV wants recognisable faces. I would say though that having been a fighter himself, he is able to offer insights, though I personally prefer the likes of Jim Watt. Barry is a front man however, not a commentator, and this requirements are different.

[jamesmcdonnell]

James - "after all his not a journalist, even though he does write a column" - you are making my points for me. No, he's not a journalist even though he is presented by the Daily Mirror, ITV, Sky etc as an authority on the sport.

After Limond he made no mention of the fact Khan had been knocked down very, very heavily in the unpaid ranks, and that his chin has been proven not to be the best. Instead, he ended with that hilarious comparision to Oscar and Mayweather. He's a shrill, pure and simple. Good luck to the guy, esp as he was skint after his boxing career ended, but don't try to tell us he's an authority cause he's not.

I think we are in broad agreement re: Hall of Fame. It needs to change, ASAP. My friend Thomas Hauser has written on the subject for the last decade and more, check it out. They need to find a way to make the annual HoF weekend an attraction to both fighters and fans without inducting X amount of fighters each and every year. I don't know what that is, but I know it has to be found if the Hall is going to remain a respected HoF in 20, 30 years time.

Why don't they move the hall of fame somewhere more suitable for a start. Canastota, I mean, where in gods name is that? It should be in New York, or even better Las Vegas.

[MightyWarrior]

John, dont think Naz thought MAB shot exactly, he was just coming off a fantastic win over Morales, robbed by the judges only, in one of the best fights seen in 20 years. He did think he was going to blast Barrera though, agree.

[rooney]

MAB beatin NAz - another great moment!

[KO Artist]

John, dont think Naz thought MAB shot exactly, he was just coming off a fantastic win over Morales, robbed by the judges only, in one of the best fights seen in 20 years. He did think he was going to blast Barrera though, agree.

Perhaps you are right in that Naz did not underrate MAB, but he was terribly reliant on his power throughout his career.

A bit like McClellan, he had no plan B.

[stujones]

Who was McGuigan's stat man for the Cotto vs Judah bill for Setanta - was there anyone. There seemed to be a live spat between Bunce and McGuigan and because McGuigan correctly (IMO) stated that the record of Zuniga suggested the Bunce opinion was wrong... Bunce then said stuff like "well you in the studio have the advantage of looking at Computers etc".... Thats more than likely correct.

Does this mean though that because Barry relies on notes and relies on nick other peoples work/opinions that he knows nowt about the sport.... Absolutely rediculous if you believe that. For me, knowledge of the sport is not if you know the date of when Sugar Ray Robinson fought Jake La Motta the second time or if you can analyse the information that fight fax provides - but if you can have a feel for a fight. If you know when a fighter is tiring, if you can see that a body shot (or something) is working and hurting etc etc. Can generally pick up what is going on in front of you. I don't care if you have never seen these two fighters in your life.

There a plenty of guys who have an excellent grasp of English and there are plenty of people who can read and remember fight records - people who actually know whats happening in front of them is not so common. McGuigan certainly knows that.

[KO Artist]

Who was McGuigan's stat man for the Cotto vs Judah bill for Setanta - was there anyone. There seemed to be a live spat between Bunce and McGuigan and because McGuigan correctly (IMO) stated that the record of Zuniga suggested the Bunce opinion was wrong... Bunce then said stuff like "well you in the studio have the advantage of looking at Computers etc".... Thats more than likely correct.

Does this mean though that because Barry relies on notes and relies on nick other peoples work/opinions that he knows nowt about the sport.... Absolutely rediculous if you believe that. For me, knowledge of the sport is not if you know the date of when Sugar Ray Robinson fought Jake La Motta the second time or if you can analyse the information that fight fax provides - but if you can have a feel for a fight. If you know when a fighter is tiring, if you can see that a body shot (or something) is working and hurting etc etc. Can generally pick up what is going on in front of you. I don't care if you have never seen these two fighters in your life.

There a plenty of guys who have an excellent grasp of English and there are plenty of people who can read and remember fight records - people who actually know whats happening in front of them is not so common. McGuigan certainly knows that.

Barry, was a world class amatuer , wrold champion pro, beat Eusebio Pedroza over 15 rounds and countless other world class fighters, set the game on fire, here and in the US.

How Ant Evans knows more about boxing than him is anyones fcuking guess. Evans might have read more books and magazines than Barry, and he has obviously written more, but what does that mean.

I would tell Ant Evans this, if you have got a gripe with Barry, invite him to put the gloves on, for charity of course.

You might learn a bit more about boxing than you had bargained for.

[stujones]

Barry, was a world class amatuer , wrold champion pro, beat Eusebio Pedroza over 15 rounds and countless other world class fighters, set the game on fire, here and in the US.

How Ant Evans knows more about boxing than him is anyones fcuking guess. Evans might have read more books and magazines than Barry, and he has obviously written more, but what does that mean.

I would tell Ant Evans this, if you have got a gripe with Barry, invite him to put the gloves on, for charity of course.

You might learn a bit more about boxing than you had bargained for.

I partially agree, don't think you have HAD TO HAVE stepped through the ropes to know about the game. For example, I might be wrong but I am sure Bob Mee hasn't fought.... However, he clearly knows his stuff - not just his stats and figures but also his commentary shows that he knows the "feel" of a fight - he can predict and outcome, he can see the shots that are doing the damage. Invariably, far more impressively than Steve Holdsworth who has stepped through the ropes.

But naturally I don't think the knowledge of someone of McGuigan's experience should be in doubt - maybe he is not a human encyclopedia - but he knows about boxers and boxing more than most. I don't know how him or Watt would fair in a pub quiz on boxing - but I would be hard pressed to find anyone better to discuss the "feel" of a fight between two fighters they have never heard off or seen before.

[Autobarn]

re Zuniga on Setanta: Barry used Zuniga's record as the gospel to say that he was a monster puncher. Zuniga is not that kind of puncher. He hits hard but does it cumulatively. He did drop Pavlik early but that was when he caught him cold; his career best performance would be a steady beatdown of Oganov in his next fight...So IMO Barry was wrong.

Here's what I think of Barry: on UK broadcasts he rubs me up the wrong way. On US, I think he's vastly superior to the expert commentators/color guys.