Not as nice an article to write, because it's more difficult to criticise (for me, at least!), but here's the follow-up to last week's under-rated article.
Comments welcome - and I'm sure at least two of them will draw some fire!
http://www.britishboxing.net/news_2820- ... oxers.html
Most over-rated British boxers
It's certainly thought provoking, Oliver. Entertaining read.
Personally, I think you are being too harsh on Hatton, and I'm not convinced that Pele Reid is "overrated" - I think it's more of a case of everyone loving a fragile heavyweight banger.
I also thought David Haye and Alex Arthur should have been included. It's good to read an opinionated piece though.
Personally, I think you are being too harsh on Hatton, and I'm not convinced that Pele Reid is "overrated" - I think it's more of a case of everyone loving a fragile heavyweight banger.
I also thought David Haye and Alex Arthur should have been included. It's good to read an opinionated piece though.
Ricky Hatton - cannot agree with that.
Matt Skelton - Yes, can see logic - some people (myself included) were really wanting him to face Briggs. Now, I am not saying Briggs was world class - but Skelton hasn't looked good with argueably worst opposition.
Could be argued the other way with Skelton, all up on perception. It could be argued that a many people predict he would lose to a man, that many people (not me) think he is 2-0 with.
Jamie Moore - tough one, but yes I agree really through no fault of Jamie's. I think the general census (just feeling the vibes on here) that with home advantage, Moorsey will be heavily favoured to win the EBU title. Great that he has got the chance, and yes he has a chance, but I do think people are putting the belt around his waist too quickly. Also, some other "vibes" I have felt is that some people have made Moore by pass European class and already onto Fringe world class. He needs to win the EBU title before any claim can be made.
Carl Froch - Similar scenerio to Moorsey, done nowt wrong but people (and I am one of the most guilty) might be overrating the manner of his Tatesvoyan and Dodson wins. Looks the part, but as you said aint fought a undisputed top tenner. For me, Tatesvoyan was top ten - but not for all.
Pele Reid - Aint too sure on that one, aint seen his comeback.
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Here is some that I could include.
Carl Froch - before his EBU title loss especially.
Herbie Hide - most protected fighter in British boxing history IMO. 2 time world champion but such a protected fighter. Now there are some quarters practically booking him for a world title now he is down at Cruiserweight.
David Haye - hyped as the saviour of the Heavyweight devision from one fight.
David Barnes - again seems to have the advantage of moving down a weight to stir up the hype.
Takaloo.
Richard Williams.
Matt Skelton - Yes, can see logic - some people (myself included) were really wanting him to face Briggs. Now, I am not saying Briggs was world class - but Skelton hasn't looked good with argueably worst opposition.
Could be argued the other way with Skelton, all up on perception. It could be argued that a many people predict he would lose to a man, that many people (not me) think he is 2-0 with.
Jamie Moore - tough one, but yes I agree really through no fault of Jamie's. I think the general census (just feeling the vibes on here) that with home advantage, Moorsey will be heavily favoured to win the EBU title. Great that he has got the chance, and yes he has a chance, but I do think people are putting the belt around his waist too quickly. Also, some other "vibes" I have felt is that some people have made Moore by pass European class and already onto Fringe world class. He needs to win the EBU title before any claim can be made.
Carl Froch - Similar scenerio to Moorsey, done nowt wrong but people (and I am one of the most guilty) might be overrating the manner of his Tatesvoyan and Dodson wins. Looks the part, but as you said aint fought a undisputed top tenner. For me, Tatesvoyan was top ten - but not for all.
Pele Reid - Aint too sure on that one, aint seen his comeback.
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Here is some that I could include.
Carl Froch - before his EBU title loss especially.
Herbie Hide - most protected fighter in British boxing history IMO. 2 time world champion but such a protected fighter. Now there are some quarters practically booking him for a world title now he is down at Cruiserweight.
David Haye - hyped as the saviour of the Heavyweight devision from one fight.
David Barnes - again seems to have the advantage of moving down a weight to stir up the hype.
Takaloo.
Richard Williams.
I agree with Terry regarding Joe - Fantastic fighter and all that, but since the Lacy win and being a 10 year WBO champion the talk of him being the Greatest British fighter and an all timer on the world stage is wrong IMO.
For 8 of his years as the champion, he had a "rival" who had everybit as good a resume - fought only at home (like Joe) and tended to beat Joe's opponents before Joe got to them. Ottke was his TRUE rival.
Lacy was never really truly tested - and while Kessler looks the bee knees, there is still untested things about him (his fighting heart, his punch resistance against a world class puncher) - plus has to be said these rumours of preperation problems seems to POSSIBLY switch the balance too Calzaghe (not Joe's fault, granted). Yes, you could say that all these are just excuses from the Calzaghe critics and that Lacy was the real deal and Kessler is fully fit and the real deal - yes, but should there be any reason for arguement for practically each and every Calzaghe opponent when your hyping someone as the Greatest Briton of all time. There is not one opponent on Calzaghe's resume that you cannot say he is not untested, or exposed - and I think to have the acculate of greatest Briton - then surely you need one!
For 8 of his years as the champion, he had a "rival" who had everybit as good a resume - fought only at home (like Joe) and tended to beat Joe's opponents before Joe got to them. Ottke was his TRUE rival.
Lacy was never really truly tested - and while Kessler looks the bee knees, there is still untested things about him (his fighting heart, his punch resistance against a world class puncher) - plus has to be said these rumours of preperation problems seems to POSSIBLY switch the balance too Calzaghe (not Joe's fault, granted). Yes, you could say that all these are just excuses from the Calzaghe critics and that Lacy was the real deal and Kessler is fully fit and the real deal - yes, but should there be any reason for arguement for practically each and every Calzaghe opponent when your hyping someone as the Greatest Briton of all time. There is not one opponent on Calzaghe's resume that you cannot say he is not untested, or exposed - and I think to have the acculate of greatest Briton - then surely you need one!
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
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Nice replies, gents.
Haye was worthy of consideration, especially when you consider, as stujones pointed out, he's been pushed as a heavyweight saviour since his first fight, at cruiserweight. People are still looking to him as Britain's best heavyweight hope, when he hasn't even won a cruiser world belt yet. An excellent choice. However, heavyweight predictions aside, I think Haye is recognised appropriately as a cruiser.
Alex Arthur - also possible, although he had a solid European run and nobody's claiming he's a legit world champ yet.
Hide - excellent choice historically, but I think presently most people view him more as a "fun" watch than a serious contender.
Barnes - he was overrated early on, but he has been exposed now and I think he is perceived at an appropriate level.
Takaloo - again, would have been worthy of consideration earlier, but the Jennings loss hurt his repuation.
Williams - same. Put in his place domestically almost a year ago, and hasn't fought since. Nobody is over-rating him presently.
Duddy - not British!
Eastman - another WAS over-rated, which has been proved.
Dunne - same
Olusegun - excellent call, although technically not British
Magee - I did think of him, but I think it's recognised now he's not going to make it in international class.
Thaxton - also thought of him, and he's similar to Moore in that he's got the respect of all for showing persistence pays off, and for being in great fights. If he was going to beat Katsidis, Romanov or even Khan, he needed to have beaten Stewart more comfortably. A good choice, then, but just outside the top 5 IMO.
Calzaghe - I hear these points and agree he could have a better CV after 10 years, but he gets a pass from me due to sheer longevity. You have to be a seriously good fighter to last that long, whoever you're fighting. And I don't think he's hurt by not fighting Ottke, who received many "gifts" in his career. The only controversial result Calzaghe has is the Reid win (which I think he won anyway), so 20 clear victories out of 21 speaks for itself, even at WBO level.
Haye was worthy of consideration, especially when you consider, as stujones pointed out, he's been pushed as a heavyweight saviour since his first fight, at cruiserweight. People are still looking to him as Britain's best heavyweight hope, when he hasn't even won a cruiser world belt yet. An excellent choice. However, heavyweight predictions aside, I think Haye is recognised appropriately as a cruiser.
Alex Arthur - also possible, although he had a solid European run and nobody's claiming he's a legit world champ yet.
Hide - excellent choice historically, but I think presently most people view him more as a "fun" watch than a serious contender.
Barnes - he was overrated early on, but he has been exposed now and I think he is perceived at an appropriate level.
Takaloo - again, would have been worthy of consideration earlier, but the Jennings loss hurt his repuation.
Williams - same. Put in his place domestically almost a year ago, and hasn't fought since. Nobody is over-rating him presently.
Duddy - not British!
Eastman - another WAS over-rated, which has been proved.
Dunne - same
Olusegun - excellent call, although technically not British
Magee - I did think of him, but I think it's recognised now he's not going to make it in international class.
Thaxton - also thought of him, and he's similar to Moore in that he's got the respect of all for showing persistence pays off, and for being in great fights. If he was going to beat Katsidis, Romanov or even Khan, he needed to have beaten Stewart more comfortably. A good choice, then, but just outside the top 5 IMO.
Calzaghe - I hear these points and agree he could have a better CV after 10 years, but he gets a pass from me due to sheer longevity. You have to be a seriously good fighter to last that long, whoever you're fighting. And I don't think he's hurt by not fighting Ottke, who received many "gifts" in his career. The only controversial result Calzaghe has is the Reid win (which I think he won anyway), so 20 clear victories out of 21 speaks for itself, even at WBO level.
Would agree with all of those - possible exception would be Brian Magee. Not sure what level people think regarding him - but certainly no-one I have had a conversation with put the term world class in the same breath as Magee. Yet, he has run 3 world class (regarded at the time) fighters VERY close... Had Reid fought a bit more fairly who knows, he looked to have been robbed vs Tszypko and gave Froch a close battle. Probably on the slight a bit now (thought he well beat Oakey mind), but he is certainly still the solid domestic, fringe EBU range that most people have always seen him as.Terry D wrote:
I'd be more inclined to go with overrated British fighters such as Duddy, Eastman, Dunne, Olusegun ("You've just beaten Reid on points, what next?", "I want Hatton and Witter", eh?), Robin Reid, Herbie Hide, Brian Magee or Jon Thaxton.
If you ever thought of him as a conqueror of Calzaghe, then yes he was over-rated.
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Old bones Ian
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 07:33
Personally think Ottke only had one TRULY controvesial decision - that was vs Mads Larsen. I cannot believe because for the truly bizarre reason that the term Split Decision (or was it Majority decision) was announced when Ottke fought Mitchell, that the yanks thought Michell was shafted. Mitchell was outboxed in many ways as convincingly as Joe done it.oliverfennell wrote:
Calzaghe - I hear these points and agree he could have a better CV after 10 years, but he gets a pass from me due to sheer longevity. You have to be a seriously good fighter to last that long, whoever you're fighting. And I don't think he's hurt by not fighting Ottke, who received many "gifts" in his career. The only controversial result Calzaghe has is the Reid win (which I think he won anyway), so 20 clear victories out of 21 speaks for itself, even at WBO level.
Reid fight COULD be dubbed controvesial - the Ref sucked, but honestly I thought that had you scored it as based on the ref decisions (point deduction, no KD) - then the right man won. Even without it, then the fight is closer than people have given Ottke credit for.
Yes, Ottke was dull to watch - yes, it looked like people with less talent with Joe SHOULD have got the job done but legitmately (e.g. good decisions) didn't - Starie (especially), Tony Thornton, Brewer etc. However, should that be a criticism of Ottke - like Joe, when the opponents were of a different class (Mundine, Mitchell, Brewer) Ottke raised his game.
Ottke and prime Beyer are the too rivals that Joe should have faced, not Kessler and Lacy
The only one who was really talking about Magee as a Calzaghe opponent was Barry Hearn and then allegedly (when they were scheduled to fight). Don't think anyone outside of these two really thought it would be that competitive. I actually think that Magee's subsequently losses have shown that it might have been more competitive than people were saying it would be - when he was an undefeated prospect.Terry D wrote:I had Magee beating Oakey but around the time he was considered as an opponent for Joe I thought the talk was insane. He would have lasted as long as a snowball in hell.stujones wrote:Would agree with all of those - possible exception would be Brian Magee. Not sure what level people think regarding him - but certainly no-one I have had a conversation with put the term world class in the same breath as Magee. Yet, he has run 3 world class (regarded at the time) fighters VERY close... Had Reid fought a bit more fairly who knows, he looked to have been robbed vs Tszypko and gave Froch a close battle. Probably on the slight a bit now (thought he well beat Oakey mind), but he is certainly still the solid domestic, fringe EBU range that most people have always seen him as.Terry D wrote:
I'd be more inclined to go with overrated British fighters such as Duddy, Eastman, Dunne, Olusegun ("You've just beaten Reid on points, what next?", "I want Hatton and Witter", eh?), Robin Reid, Herbie Hide, Brian Magee or Jon Thaxton.
If you ever thought of him as a conqueror of Calzaghe, then yes he was over-rated.
Another point about Calzaghe, sorry if I seem to be excessively bashing him but this is a forum, is that when he was fighting Manfredo and Bika he was talking up beating Joe Louis' defence record, which he will never ever beat because he has only defended a true title twice, and that was put under immediate dispute by Kessler, Joe would talk about overtaking the other Joe and Holmes.
Now he is talking about jumping up in weight and fighting the best at light-heavyweight. I do not take anything he, nor his promotional team, says seriously. If they told me it was raining I'd check to make sure no one was pissing on my back first.
The Louis thing was just a means of hoodwinking people prior to the dire matches made and now we are hearing a load of bull about jumping onto a plane and fighting the best in the world. Why believe them? There will be another gimme fight surely?
For these, and other reasons, he is dramatically overrated despite the fact he could, over ten years, ten years, have stepped up and given his talent the best possible stage to shine on. That he never did explains the '0' but it is also a chronic shame.
Mate no matter what might have been........ JC was going thro a divorce at the time and was in no way up for that fight. He pulled out cos there was a genuine risk of Magee beating him.stujones wrote:The only one who was really talking about Magee as a Calzaghe opponent was Barry Hearn and then allegedly allegedly (when they were scheduled to fight). Don't think anyone outside of these two really thought it would be that competitive. I actually think that Magee's subsequently losses have shown that it might have been more competitive than people were saying it would be - when he was an undefeated prospect.Terry D wrote:I had Magee beating Oakey but around the time he was considered as an opponent for Joe I thought the talk was insane. He would have lasted as long as a snowball in hell.stujones wrote: Would agree with all of those - possible exception would be Brian Magee. Not sure what level people think regarding him - but certainly no-one I have had a conversation with put the term world class in the same breath as Magee. Yet, he has run 3 world class (regarded at the time) fighters VERY close... Had Reid fought a bit more fairly who knows, he looked to have been robbed vs Tszypko and gave Froch a close battle. Probably on the slight a bit now (thought he well beat Oakey mind), but he is certainly still the solid domestic, fringe EBU range that most people have always seen him as.
If you ever thought of him as a conqueror of Calzaghe, then yes he was over-rated.
Another point about Calzaghe, sorry if I seem to be excessively bashing him but this is a forum, is that when he was fighting Manfredo and Bika he was talking up beating Joe Louis' defence record, which he will never ever beat because he has only defended a true title twice, and that was put under immediate dispute by Kessler, Joe would talk about overtaking the other Joe and Holmes.
Now he is talking about jumping up in weight and fighting the best at light-heavyweight. I do not take anything he, nor his promotional team, says seriously. If they told me it was raining I'd check to make sure no one was pissing on my back first.
The Louis thing was just a means of hoodwinking people prior to the dire matches made and now we are hearing a load of bull about jumping onto a plane and fighting the best in the world. Why believe them? There will be another gimme fight surely?
For these, and other reasons, he is dramatically overrated despite the fact he could, over ten years, ten years, have stepped up and given his talent the best possible stage to shine on. That he never did explains the '0' but it is also a chronic shame.
Surprising that may sound now.
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
That's a good point, although conversely it could be argued he's UNDER-rated on his comeback. He certainly never was and never will be the world champion he was groomed to be from day one, but he's done very well to claw his way back into contention following a defeat (Blundell) which should have neded his career.Old bones Ian wrote:Ok so this one may make me unpopular, but Ryan Rhodes , if you look at his record everytime he's stepped up he's been beat.
Since losing to Blundell all his wins have come against journeymen or novices.
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E
- Heavyweight
I'm sorry to say I think the article is terrible...
Hatton - surely this was just put in to stir discussion? AT number 1 also????
Skelton - I don't know anyone who rates him.
Pele REid - noone cares about him, everyone knows how chinny he is. Perhaps a few years ago this would've been an excellent choice but now???
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HOw could you leave out Amir Khan, possibly the most overrated fighter since Audley HArrison?
What about Danny WIlliams - he beat a shell of a Tyson, and has been stopped by Harrison, Klitschko and Sam.
ALex Artur should definitely be there. Amazing he just ain't.
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SOrry to be so negative; I like your writing usually but I think your choices are awful.
Hatton - surely this was just put in to stir discussion? AT number 1 also????
Skelton - I don't know anyone who rates him.
Pele REid - noone cares about him, everyone knows how chinny he is. Perhaps a few years ago this would've been an excellent choice but now???
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HOw could you leave out Amir Khan, possibly the most overrated fighter since Audley HArrison?
What about Danny WIlliams - he beat a shell of a Tyson, and has been stopped by Harrison, Klitschko and Sam.
ALex Artur should definitely be there. Amazing he just ain't.
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SOrry to be so negative; I like your writing usually but I think your choices are awful.
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5564
- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
My choices in this and the previous article were listed in order of importance of the fighter. Sorry if that is misleading. That's why I put Hatton at number one, and so on.E wrote:I'm sorry to say I think the article is terrible...
Hatton - surely this was just put in to stir discussion? AT number 1 also????
Skelton - I don't know anyone who rates him.
Pele REid - noone cares about him, everyone knows how chinny he is. Perhaps a few years ago this would've been an excellent choice but now???
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HOw could you leave out Amir Khan, possibly the most overrated fighter since Audley HArrison?
What about Danny WIlliams - he beat a shell of a Tyson, and has been stopped by Harrison, Klitschko and Sam.
ALex Artur should definitely be there. Amazing he just ain't.
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SOrry to be so negative; I like your writing usually but I think your choices are awful.
Anyway, it's not just to stir discussion. I clearly stated my reasons, even if you disagree with them.
People DO rate Skelton; you only have to look at threads here about him. Opinion is divided, actually.
Khan and Williams were not included because they were in my UNDER-rated list last week! This might get your back up, but read the article and you'll see my reasoning.
At the end of the day, though, articles like this are always subjective, and I'm never claiming they're anything more than one person's opinion. I can appreciate you think my CHOICES are "awful", but that does not mean the ARTICLE is "terrible", just because you disagree.
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Old bones Ian
- Heavyweight
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Fair point. ANd yes, sorry I forgot Khan and Williams were in your article last week.oliverfennell wrote:
My choices in this and the previous article were listed in order of importance of the fighter. Sorry if that is misleading. That's why I put Hatton at number one, and so on.
Anyway, it's not just to stir discussion. I clearly stated my reasons, even if you disagree with them.
People DO rate Skelton; you only have to look at threads here about him. Opinion is divided, actually.
Khan and Williams were not included because they were in my UNDER-rated list last week! This might get your back up, but read the article and you'll see my reasoning.
At the end of the day, though, articles like this are always subjective, and I'm never claiming they're anything more than one person's opinion. I can appreciate you think my CHOICES are "awful", but that does not mean the ARTICLE is "terrible", just because you disagree.
Hmmmm but can a fighter be both overrated AND underrated? I would argue yes, depending on who.
EG Evander Holyfield.
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
I guess they can, depending on what criteria you apply.E wrote:Fair point. ANd yes, sorry I forgot Khan and Williams were in your article last week.oliverfennell wrote:
My choices in this and the previous article were listed in order of importance of the fighter. Sorry if that is misleading. That's why I put Hatton at number one, and so on.
Anyway, it's not just to stir discussion. I clearly stated my reasons, even if you disagree with them.
People DO rate Skelton; you only have to look at threads here about him. Opinion is divided, actually.
Khan and Williams were not included because they were in my UNDER-rated list last week! This might get your back up, but read the article and you'll see my reasoning.
At the end of the day, though, articles like this are always subjective, and I'm never claiming they're anything more than one person's opinion. I can appreciate you think my CHOICES are "awful", but that does not mean the ARTICLE is "terrible", just because you disagree.
Hmmmm but can a fighter be both overrated AND underrated? I would argue yes, depending on who.
EG Evander Holyfield.
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Khaosai-Galaxy
- Heavyweight
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I think you've got a point - his last opponent was a 4 fight-novice coming off a lossOld bones Ian wrote:Ok so this one may make me unpopular, but Ryan Rhodes , if you look at his record everytime he's stepped up he's been beat.
Since losing to Blundell all his wins have come against journeymen or novices.
disagree on Hatton. Tszyu was number 3 pound for pound, long reigning &dominant champion of the light-welterweight division, and was definitely an elite fighter of the very top class when Hatton toppled him. i get that u r disappointed with his career since then, but that win proves he's amongst the best.
