Was Robin Reid really robbed!

Lickszz · Post by **Lickszz** » 16 Dec 2003, 12:53

The referee hampered Reids performance IMO. I feel the scores were close excluding the knockdown & point take off. I am amazed that Reid kept his cool as well as he did under the circumstances.

Lickszz · Post by **Lickszz** » 16 Dec 2003, 13:03

[quote="Loftgroov"]Being "Champion" has Ottke ever officially stated [i]why[/i] he won't fight [i]outside[/i] of Germany?

I mean we know why (home town decisions, padding out a career etc..) but I wondered what Ottke actually states about it.

Surely hes been offered opportunities to fight elsewhere for big money, so why has he turned them down?[/quote]

Perhaps the only way forward is to not allow champions to fight in their own country.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 16 Dec 2003, 13:59

This is a good thread, i questioned beforehand whether Reid would get away with infringements and i thought there was a good chance he might get deducted points if not disqualified. He showed against Calzaghe and Branco that he is a dirty fighter. The ref was totally poor and on the subject of the TV transmission, the potential knockdown would never be shown, i have watched many German TV casts and they NEVER show anything from the opposing fighter. Even where there fighter does nothing (as is usually the case) they show something he did do in the round. If there man is outpunched completely they still show there mans sparse success or even him running around or holding. Very rarely do they show opposition fighters best moments.

I don't think Reid was robbed as badly as i have seen fighters in the past, i mean his conditioning seemed to let him down and he had little in the tank at the end which allowed Ottke to capitilise a little. He was clearly disheartened after round 7 and that seemed to mentally drain him as much as physically, he knew he was down and the refs performance was hindering him.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 16 Dec 2003, 14:04

Delete - hic!!

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 16 Dec 2003, 14:08

Well I think we all knew that Ottke just had to be on his feet by the end of round 12 to win it - like it or not - as did Reid.
The ref was a bloody joke yes, but what's new there? We've seen 20 odd defences by Sven, and it's the same almost every time...

Reid was a big disappointment to me and I didn't have much sympathy for him to be honest.
Why was he standing off Ottke for instance? There was no way on earth Sven could knock him out!!

He didn't do enough to win in Germany, so he didn't get the verdict - end of story I'm afraid.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 16 Dec 2003, 14:26

Agreed, how anyone can say the ref did a good job however has a warped mind. Looking at Ottke's defences really pisses me off, out of all the fights he has picked up debatable decisions against many fighters, i dont necessarily agree personally they were all debatable for example i had him clearly beating Mitchell. But at least someone found the following fights dodgy:

Robin Reid
Mads Larsen
David Starie
Byron Mitchell
Glencoffe Johnson
Charles Brewer (Twice)

And don't forget everyones favourite Anthony Mundine was Boxing his head off before he was stopped. Not exactly a convincing list is it?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Dec 2003, 15:29

Ottke won the fight 116-113 on my card scoring the 6th 10-10, so 114-113 if the round was scored 10-8. Quite odd, while I think Joe is better than Ottke now (although Ottke is still the #1) I thought Reid beat Joe, but Ottke beat Reid.

Rounds 4 and 5 were a lot closer than the way Duke and Jim were calling them.

GAV · Post by **GAV** » 16 Dec 2003, 15:37

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I totally disagree...

The refereeing wasn't POOR, it was BENT, simple as. Reid had no hope of knocking Ottke out, every time he hit him with a hard shot, he was warned for some imaginary crime, and then the two were broken up.

Ottke is a pudendum, he blatantly whinged and moaned about things that were not happening, and then fouled Ottke at every opportunity knowing he would never be deducted points. He turned his back on Reid at one point, then complained because a shot landed on his kidneys, what a wanker!

Had the referee not interjected at every given opportunity, warned Reid every time he landed a shot for going low or landing rabbit punches, perhaps Reid would have knocked him out.

Even with Reid being poor in the last 6, I still gave him 2 of fhose rounds. Ottke wasn't exactly landing anything much aside from his head and shoulder.

As for everyone knowing you have to knock the opponent out in germany, if that's the case, then they should not allow any major title belt. Ok the same thing happens occasionally in other countries, but not to the extent it goes on in Germany, the sanctioning bodies are allowing their belts to be retained by nothing other than the fact that German fighters refuse to leave their own country, because they know they are not good enough to retain their belts anywhere but home territory. I really could not be more disgusted...

Put it this way, Don King had Rahman, Mayorga and Joppy on that bill, and yet all 3 of three of them lost on the cards, so if we are going to talk about DK being corrupt, then it shows how much more corrupt German officials are surely, at least King fighters lose sometimes. Universum fighters only lose if they get stopped, otherwise they win every time.

How in fucks name could Reid have been down 2 rounds going into the 5th? That is impossible, Ottke did NOTHING in the first 4 rounds, he didn't land a single clean scoring punch that I can remember.

that was the most disgusting refereeing job I ever saw, I am sorry, but that guy was BLATANTLY paid off to give Ottke every possible chance. I guarantee that if Reid had somehow knocked him out, they would have said it was a rabbit punch or found some way to ensure Ottke retained the belt.

No way on gods earth could Ottke have won more than 4 rounds by my reckoning.

The knockdown blatantly was a knockdown, the ref never even considered giving it as such.

Even a friend of mine who knows not a lot about boxing was shouting at the screen 'What the fornicate is the referee doing,

The ref stopped Reid fighting the way he wanted to, he was getting to the stage where he was being warned simply for hitting his opponent. When Reid started to tire, suddenly the ref stops coming between them, to ensure that Ottke is allowed to throw in his head and his shoulder, and then tie Reid up.

I honestly think that is a disgusting piece of corruption, and I am going to write a letter to the respective governing bodies asking them to explain how on earth they are allowing a piece of shit like Ottke who in my opinion was in collusion with the referee to retain his belts in such a manner.

BANG ON!

The WBO refused to give Morales their belt when he got the decision over MAB in fight I because they felt Barrera had won the fight.

Surely the WBA and IBF should take similar action against Ottke. At least order rematches!!!!!!

Ottke is the only boxer i would LOVE to see getting knocked out bigtime!!!!!!!!!!

Steve M · Post by **Steve M** » 16 Dec 2003, 16:28

This fight left a bad taste in the mouth but it was a close fight and nowhere near one sided enough to be a robbery.Ottke is a dull fighter but to be honest i don't think he has had nearly as many gift decisions as he is made out to have.

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 16 Dec 2003, 16:55

Reid won by a couple of rounds. So looking at the rule book he should have two world titles right now.

Dutch Windmill · Post by **Dutch Windmill** » 16 Dec 2003, 18:12

steve689 wrote:But at least someone found the following fights dodgy:

Robin Reid
Mads Larsen
David Starie
Byron Mitchell
Glencoffe Johnson
Charles Brewer (Twice)

And don't forget everyones favourite Anthony Mundine was Boxing his
head off before he was stopped. Not exactly a convincing list is it?

Steve as much as I respect you, I have to disagree completely on this one.
The second fight with Brewer was closer to a shutout than to a split decision.
Starie was close, yeah, but no way Starie won that fight, Starie just as Reid, stepped completely off the gas for the last 3-4 rounds.

As for Mitchell, so little people have really seen this fight, they just judge by the result, an SD.

There were not much non-danes that scored the fight for Larsen

And Glencoffe Johnson has often been the victim of bad judges(I remember a dodgy decision in Sheffield not too long ago), but not int he case of Ottke.

I would say the Mundine victory was all in all pretty impressive, Mundine is world champion now(well at least he won it against a decent opponent), Ottke was leading with 1 point if I remember correctly on my scorecard, showed he had a plan B, and knocked him out cold(something notorious puncher Echols couldn't do!)

I scored the Reid fight 116-115, and you have to admit Reid just didn't do enough to capture a title, I know it's an unwritten rule but still.

So that leaves Brewer I, in which he captured the title, which truly was a bad decision. Still, 20 defenses of legitimate world title.

He should've hung em up after the Joe Gatti fight. Gatti really had him in trouble and after that he would be on the bad streak he is now on.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Dec 2003, 18:52

Dutch Windmill wrote:
steve689 wrote:But at least someone found the following fights dodgy:

Robin Reid
Mads Larsen
David Starie
Byron Mitchell
Glencoffe Johnson
Charles Brewer (Twice)

And don't forget everyones favourite Anthony Mundine was Boxing his
head off before he was stopped. Not exactly a convincing list is it?
Steve as much as I respect you, I have to disagree completely on this one.
The second fight with Brewer was closer to a shutout than to a split decision.
Starie was close, yeah, but no way Starie won that fight, Starie just as Reid, stepped completely off the gas for the last 3-4 rounds.

As for Mitchell, so little people have really seen this fight, they just judge by the result, an SD.

There were not much non-danes that scored the fight for Larsen

And Glencoffe Johnson has often been the victim of bad judges(I remember a dodgy decision in Sheffield not too long ago), but not int he case of Ottke.

I would say the Mundine victory was all in all pretty impressive, Mundine is world champion now(well at least he won it against a decent opponent), Ottke was leading with 1 point if I remember correctly on my scorecard, showed he had a plan B, and knocked him out cold(something notorious puncher Echols couldn't do!)

I scored the Reid fight 116-115, and you have to admit Reid just didn't do enough to capture a title, I know it's an unwritten rule but still.

So that leaves Brewer I, in which he captured the title, which truly was a bad decision. Still, 20 defenses of legitimate world title.

He should've hung em up after the Joe Gatti fight. Gatti really had him in trouble and after that he would be on the bad streak he is now on.

Agree with Dutch there, I think only the Brewer decision (in the first fight) was dodgy. The rest have been legitimate - although I haven't seen the Larsen fight.

For me, I'm quite surprised that people are going on that Reid was robbed, if he was robbed then there is a case for Starie - I thought it was equally as close. Remember Starie start well and finished well. I thought it was closer the Ottke vs Reid.

And as for Mitchell, that was an excellent performance - for me I had it Ottke by about 7, it was clear cut.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 17 Dec 2003, 05:19

bennie wrote:It wasn't until I read Gavin Evans' fantastic book, "Dancing Shoes is Dead", which gives a South African perspective on world boxing, that I realized just how poorly our officials are regarded.

The SA Judges don't come out of it smelling too sweet either - that Wally Snowball character sounds lucky to have remained alive!

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 17 Dec 2003, 06:09

"Scouser gets robbed!"

Isn't that what you Journo's call a "Man Bites Dog!" story?

Priff · Post by **Priff** » 17 Dec 2003, 08:32

stujones wrote: For me, I'm quite surprised that people are going on that Reid was robbed, if he was robbed then there is a case for Starie - I thought it was equally as close. Remember Starie start well and finished well. I thought it was closer the Ottke vs Reid.

It depends what you mean by Robbed.
Did Reid fight the kind of fight to make him the clear-cut winner?... I don't think so, most don't think so, but some clearly do. He was "saving himself for the later rounds" as he said himself in the post fight interview.

But, if the question is, did Ottke and the Ref conspire to prevent Reid from fighting in a way that would make him the clear-cut winner (as well as denying him rightful points and docking points)....well, who can argue against that. They clearly did.

He may not have been robbed by the Judges, but the Ref and Ottkes conspiring actions pretty much amount to the same thing.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 17 Dec 2003, 11:33

Dutch Windmill wrote:
steve689 wrote:But at least someone found the following fights dodgy:

Point taken Dutch, but the point i was really trying to make though was that SOMEONE found the verdict debatable on those fights not necessarily me. Like i stressed i agreed with the Reid verdict and Starie and i had him 9-3 on rounds over Mitchell. But i felt the fact that so many of his wins have been questioned by various people leads me to believe that he is a champion who has been heavily protected by judges, referees and his promotions team alike.

Looking at German Boxing overall as much as i hate to say it they have a bunch of "world champions" and fighters in general who are in truth very overprotected and in most cases distinctly average. Ottke is probably one of the better ones as is Markus Beyer but look at Danilo Haussler, Alexander Petkovic, Michel Trabant etc and dare i say it there is another one ready to take the mantle soon Kai Kurzawa (forgive me Kai

). Fighters who taken out of there natural home environment would struggle to become anything more than respected pro's and definately nothing out of the ordinary.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Dec 2003, 12:12

That is my point entirely, it goes a level further than having judges influenced toward one fighter.

The referee ensured that Reid could not fight any tactic which proved successful. Early in the fight when Reid was strong, the ref would admonish Reid for landing any hard blows to the body or head, and noticably, this was done almost entirely at the bidding of Ottke, who basically had a remote control device for the referee.

It's one thing to disagree with a decision, (which I do in any case, as Ottke hardly landed any clean scoring shots, head shots and shoulder shots do not score as far as I am aware) but it is another thing entirely to have the referee so far onside

To put this into perspective, Mickey Vann may have be accused of being Hatton's own private ref, but he didn't try and reverse the knockdown, and then take a point off from Magee for use of the head.

If anyone can name a more obvious piece of CORRUPT refereeing, then I would like them to tell me about it.