Reasons why Team USA is not as good as they can be

xbox · Post by **xbox** » 06 Nov 2007, 21:06

Team USA probably has more talent than any other country in the world. In talking to some of my Russian colleagues its evident why (and they believe talent wise USA is #1) Team USA isn't as successful as it could be. It really all comes down to coaching. USA Boxing has tried to mirror other residency programs, however they aren't having a great deal of success. They qualified about half the team, and earned 2 gold medals. The 2 golds were won by guys, who should have won, especially with home field adv. and no cuban team.
The team is being coached like a military unit. However boxing is a one on one sport and training programs need to be tailored to each boxer. Watching Team USA box, shows a very one dimensional team, one that did not show improvement among the Team USA coaching staff. (they would have been better off with there personal coaches seeing the results) The bottom line is that most of the kids and coaches haven't learned angles, defense and the scoring system. In other countries like Russia, they go and get the best available coaches to train there boxers, whereas in the US, we go out and get who is available, which isn't the best available. These top level coaches can they tutor the boxer and his personal coach.
I'm personally for a residency program, that improves the athletes, however the one in place now is not liked nor taken serious by the athletes, because they are not being improved....just look at our performance and talk to a few of the athletes...its readily apparent, and sad to see a very talented team, that would be lucky if it got more than 2 or 3 medals in the 2008 games.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 07 Nov 2007, 00:30

We may be lucky to get just the 2 or 3 medals at the Olympics. I think the personal coaches should be involved in the boxers training and not excluded as they have been.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 07 Nov 2007, 17:31

It really all comes down to coaching. USA Boxing has tried to mirror other residency programs, however they aren't having a great deal of success. They qualified about half the team, and earned 2 gold medals.

This is the first residency program USA Boxing has instituted in the past 20+ years and it just started a bare month ago. Let's give it a chance before we decide whether or not it is successful. As a matter of fact, I would give it until the Olympics and see what happens there. And I also can't see USAB going to Cuba or Russia for a national coach.......

Amy, your statement is only too true. We are the only country whose boxing program is not supported by the government.

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 07 Nov 2007, 19:06

I absolutely agree with you, Dennis. The personal coaches have brought these athletes to the level to which they are, and excluding them is a true disservice to both the athlete and the coaches. They should be included in everything, encouraged to participate, and assisted whenever possible. I have heard that the funds at USA boxing are slim but there are many things they CAN do to help the personal coaches, such as help them with lodging, etc. I don't think the "residency" idea is viable, these athletes have lives, jobs, responsibilities that many times just cannot be put on "hold" for a year while they "train" for the Olympics. And I DO NOT THINK AN ATHLETE SHOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM OUR OLYMPIC TEAM JUST BECAUSE HE HAS A JOB AND RESPONSIBILITIES and cannot go play for a year. And by that I mean if you aren't supporting yourself and your family and taking care of your business, you are playing. I think periodic training camps would be OK, if they include the personal coaches.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 07 Nov 2007, 19:30

The personal coaches.... They should be included in everything, encouraged to participate, and assisted whenever possible.

Dan Campbell told me in Houston that he plans on including the personal coaches in the residency program as much as possible.

I have heard that the funds at USA boxing are slim

Basically non-existent????

but there are many things they CAN do to help the personal coaches, such as help them with lodging, etc.

Lodging and meals where? And for who? And how many? If you are talking about putting up and feeding, at the minimum, one personal coach per 300 boxers at, say, the US Championships - that would be a horrendous amount of money and I don't even know if it could be justified.

I don't think the "residency" idea is viable, these athletes have lives, jobs, responsibilities that many times just cannot be put on "hold" for a year while they "train" for the Olympics.

So far, our Olympic team is in residence.

And I DO NOT THINK AN ATHLETE SHOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM OUR OLYMPIC TEAM JUST BECAUSE HE HAS A JOB AND RESPONSIBILITIES and cannot go play for a year.

Do you know of any athlete who has been excluded from the team for that reason?

And by that I mean if you aren't supporting yourself and your family and taking care of your business, you are playing.

I'm really sorry you feel that way. I don't think the athletes feel that they are "playing." And if they do, they shouldn't be on the team.

I think periodic training camps would be OK, if they include the personal coaches

I wonder what other country has the number of personal coaches that we do and if they do, are they included on everything. I doubt it.

Just my opinions.

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 07 Nov 2007, 21:19

At the elite level, when a boxer goes to an International bout, the personal coach should be included. Of course they cannot support the coaches at, say, the USA Championships. That we agree on. But if a personal coach desires to go with their athlete to a special meet, overseas, if they are qualified, they should go and be allowed to corner their athlete. If they aren't qualified, if they are producing top level athletes, USA Boxing should be helping these coaches become certified, etc. Sure, they offer the clinics, etc. But it is tough for especially the seasoned coaches to go, in particular when the clinics are so few. And let's face it. It's difficult for many fine coaches that have limited "book learning" but wonderful boxing, coaching skills, to digest all the information at the clinics and be able to pass the tests in the short time they have at the clinics. We need some outreach clinics that are geared to teaching the information in a gentler way, but of course not compromise the content.
True, the team is in"residence". I would be particularly interested to learn if they are training at the level that they would be in their own gym. Goodness, "defensive coach" and "offensive coach" ?? How stressed are these athletes? I see they will be out of the country for Thanksgiving, a traditionally family holiday.
And who is going to feed their kids? I don't think the stipend that they are getting from USA Boxing is taking care of that. Maybe most of them don't have children, but I know of at least one that does.
I truly hope things work out for our team. I just don't think this is the way to do it. Just my opinion

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 07 Nov 2007, 21:25

Mel wrote "Do you know of any athlete who has been excluded from the team for that reason? "

No, but what would happen if they refused to go to the residency program?? I suspect there was something in the paperwork they signed saying that if they did not abide by all the rules and regulations (and the residency I think is a "regulation") that they would be dropped from the team. Check and see. Maybe one of the athletes would join this forum and let us know.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:02

At the elite level, when a boxer goes to an International bout, the personal coach should be included.

I think this does happen for dual meets. However, unless that coach is picked as part of the delegation, he will have to pay his own way.

We need some outreach clinics that are geared to teaching the information in a gentler way, but of course not compromise the content.

Are you talking about the Level 3 and/or Level 4 certifications? Why don't you email Tom Coulter and offer this suggestion. I think it's a good one.

I would be particularly interested to learn if they are training at the level that they would be in their own gym.

In order to determine this, you would have to find out how each coach trains their boxer at home and then compare it to the training at the OTC.

How stressed are these athletes?

Maybe no more than normal? We don't know, do we?

I see they will be out of the country for Thanksgiving, a traditionally family holiday.

Ya know, sometimes you just have to give up a traditional family holiday in order to accomplish a goal. I personally don't see anything wrong with that, unless the athletes are chained to their beds and can't go anywhere at all ever! Last year we sent a team to England for a dual at Thanksgiving and I think all survived, including their families.

And who is going to feed their kids?

Grandparents? Wives/girlfriends? Now, I think, you're getting a bit out there. I doubt seriously that any kid is going to starve while their father is training for the Olympics.

I truly hope things work out for our team. I just don't think this is the way to do it. Just my opinion

And you are entitled to your opinion. I think we'll just have to wait and see what works. We won't know the "way to do it" until it's been tried.

but what would happen if they refused to go to the residency program??

They would have been off the team. This was made clear in Houston. It's just too bad "the bomb" was dropped during the Trials and not made clear before.

I suspect there was something in the paperwork they signed saying that if they did not abide by all the rules

USOC has rules and regulations involving the conduct of each athlete who lives there. USAB has rules and regulations involving the conduct of each athlete that represents them in any event, domestic or international. This is normal and necessary. Unfortunately, there are many instances where our top athletes (Michael Sims, Marshall Martinez to name a few) broke the rules and were taken off the team.

Many, many athletes, with and without families, have made tremendous sacrifices in striving to reach a goal such as an Olympic gold. I firmly believe that striving and sacrificing is a much better approach than babying and giving into whining demands. I worked one of the 2000 Olympic camps for a week before the Olympics. They were NOT a team and the whining and arrogance and egos of some of the team members, and sparring partners, were a definite detriment to cohesing and working together.

Again, let's withhold judgement until this first resident year and the Olympics are over. And then pass judgment if need be.

xbox · Post by **xbox** » 08 Nov 2007, 02:15

Kidscoach has hit the nail on the head. Offensive and defensive coach, come on, this isn't football. The other problem you have with this program is that most of the top coaches aren't level 3 or 4, because they realize how foolish the whole process is, and its nearly impossible to get the certifications because of time constraints etc. Coaching positions shouldn't go to those who have free time, but success in building boxers.
Boxing isn't a team sport either. Each athlete needs individual attention, and you can see that its not happening in this program. How could kid like Gary Russell, not medal, with all his talent, or even Luis Yanez?? I bet if there personal coaches were involved, they would have!

usanumberone · Post by **usanumberone** » 08 Nov 2007, 08:02

I agree with Mel. I think this residency program might work well. Nobody knows for sure yet. And whining won't help anything. I'm quite sure most of them are enjoying staying at the OTC. It is a great experience that will stay with them for the rest of their lives. I would guess that if a coach truly wanted to be involved he could make a way to do so too.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 08 Nov 2007, 09:56

The other problem you have with this program is that most of the top coaches aren't level 3 or 4, because they realize how foolish the whole process is

,

I think I'm going to beg to differ with you on this. You are not eligible for international travel/assignment to a delegation unless you are at least a Level 3 and definitely a Level 4. If the "top coaches" feel the process is foolish (as mandated by the USOC and our insurance program), then I guess they are SOL with regard to becoming a head or assistant coach for an international event.

and its nearly impossible to get the certifications because of time constraints etc.

If something is important enough, you will make time. Like the coaches, the official's Level 3 is only given at national tournaments, the annual meeting, and Train The Trainer. If an official wants to be a Level 3, and maintain that Level, said person will make sure he or she is at a national tournament to take the test.

Coaching positions shouldn't go to those who have free time, but success in building boxers.

What about the coach who has had success in building boxers but can't take time off to go on a trip? Is that USA Boxing's fault? Most of the coaches who do go on trips do so because they can take the time needed. Many just plain can't.

Boxing isn't a team sport either. Each athlete needs individual attention, and you can see that its not happening in this program.

And you are able to make this determination after one month into "this program?" Maybe you should be training our Olympic team.

How could kid like Gary Russell, not medal, with all his talent, or even Luis Yanez?? I bet if there personal coaches were involved, they would have!

Even with his personal coach in his corner, Gary Russell lost his first bout at the Trials. Gary Russell's coach did work his corner at the Worlds and he still lost. So your point is? From what you're saying, if every personal coach worked his or her boxer's corner in an international competition they would never lose. I don't think you have a realistic grasp of facts but are speaking emotionally.

JMac · Post by **JMac** » 08 Nov 2007, 10:37

xbox wrote: How could kid like Gary Russell, not medal, with all his talent, or even Luis Yanez?? I bet if there personal coaches were involved, they would have!

Gary Russell's dad who is one of his coaches was in Chicago and his other coach is Robert Martin who was pick as one of the Olympic coaches.

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 08 Nov 2007, 10:54

". Gary Russell's coach did work his corner at the Worlds and he still lost. So your point is?" said Mel
His coach may have worked his corner at the World's, but was he at the training camp training him for the weeks prior to the event? I understand that none of the personal coaches were there. So we have different coaches doing different things, changing things (and maybe for the good if done 3-4 monts ahead so the athlete has time to integrate the new techniques, styles, etc into their basic style) just prior to the Worlds. Changes usually upset an athlete's rhythm for awhile until that change is fully integrated. I wasn't at the training camp, so I don't know what they were focusing on, but my concept of a training camp is to get the athlete in peak condition, teach new skills to add to their own arsenal, refine techniques, etc. Maybe I don't know what happens at the camps and residency program. Enlighten me. I always want to learn.
I don't think the certification is foolish, but I do think it should be more accessible. It should also be offered at national tournaments. If they want to keep the level 4 at the Springs, fine, but have it more often. I think that the curriculum for the Level 3 and especially the Level 4 should be standardized, not just what someone wants to teach that time.

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 08 Nov 2007, 11:12

To usanumberone- And whining won't help anything."
The posts in this forum generally are not "whining". There are a lot of things in boxing that need to be explored and discussed. I personally don't see Mel or any of them very often, and it is wonderful to be able to discuss some of these things with them. Most of us just want to make boxing better for the athletes and the USA. If you were refering to the athletes at the camps, etc. whining, there needs to be a mechanism in place that if they have a "whine", it can be heard by the group and dealt with.

kidscoach · Post by **kidscoach** » 08 Nov 2007, 14:43

Mel wrote "Even with his personal coach in his corner, Gary Russell lost his first bout at the Trials. Gary Russell's coach did work his corner at the Worlds and he still lost."

Gary Russell's Dad (his coach) sat in the stands and watched his son's bout. He did not corner him. He was not allowed to. Not sure where you got your information, Mel. Since his coach was there, he should have been in that corner.

Roberts J · Post by **Roberts J** » 08 Nov 2007, 20:25

amy wrote:Another contributing factor to this is that many other countries treat their top level amateur athletes like professionals. In that, they don't have to have jobs and support themselves and pay for their training. (someone correct me if I'm wrong here)

I know I would be a lot better if I didn't have to work and worry about rent, gym fees and traveling to tournaments.

Top 4 Russians get a good deal of money per month. The #1 and #2 boxers get more then 2,500 Euro a month. I heard even 5,000 Europe a month. With that type of money in easter europe, you are set. They can focus only on training, good point.

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 09 Nov 2007, 00:38

I don't believe that skills are honed that much at the camp. I do think it is more about conditioning and training at altitude to give an edge in that aspect. I believe they add in a mental condition program that is so foreign to these kids that most of them have a hard time grasping it or completely reject the idea as a useful tool because it has not been a part of their program all along like in some countries. I also think it is a time that boxers are schooled on how to handle media and kept under a watchful eye to insure proper weights and limited injuries. That is not saying that their personal coach would not do the same thing. In fact there were still weight problems and some injuries. Truth is these kids have their styles ingrained by their coached for 7,8,9 years and you are not going to take a kid in 8 weeks and make him better, especially if you don't have one hot shot of a coach that can make a good connection with the team. Even some of the top pros can't change their style in 8 weeks with the highest paid coaches in the world, and that's one on one every day. Most of the personal coaches are more worried about their kids skills getting dull if it is not honed with the same intensity that a personal coach drills it. Getting a boxer to trust a new coach that he hardly knows over someone that he has trusted his life with, is pretty tough. In some cases trying to change him might cause resentment by the boxer. Now if you bring a coach that has gone to a couple Olympics and churned out a bunch of medals over the years I would say " boys keep your eyes and ears open, this guy is proven to know some things that can help you ". I don't know if we have a coach in the country that falls into that category. Most good coaches can improve at least something on just about any boxer but the timing is not always best to do it. And that's all I've got to say about that.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Nov 2007, 10:59

kidscoach wrote:I absolutely agree with you, Dennis. The personal coaches have brought these athletes to the level to which they are, and excluding them is a true disservice to both the athlete and the coaches. They should be included in everything, encouraged to participate, and assisted whenever possible. I have heard that the funds at USA boxing are slim but there are many things they CAN do to help the personal coaches, such as help them with lodging, etc. I don't think the "residency" idea is viable, these athletes have lives, jobs, responsibilities that many times just cannot be put on "hold" for a year while they "train" for the Olympics. And I DO NOT THINK AN ATHLETE SHOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM OUR OLYMPIC TEAM JUST BECAUSE HE HAS A JOB AND RESPONSIBILITIES and cannot go play for a year. And by that I mean if you aren't supporting yourself and your family and taking care of your business, you are playing. I think periodic training camps would be OK, if they include the personal coaches.

Good points. I totally agree about short training camps especially if it included the personal coaches. The personal coaches can get through to their boxers better than the national coaches.
Mel - he was saying to lodge the personal coaches of the Olympians not everyone. There have been statements that if the boxers did not reside in the program, they would be kicked off the Olympic Team. In fact several of the alternates were kicked out of camp.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Nov 2007, 11:09

kidscoach wrote:". Gary Russell's coach did work his corner at the Worlds and he still lost. So your point is?" said Mel
His coach may have worked his corner at the World's, but was he at the training camp training him for the weeks prior to the event? I understand that none of the personal coaches were there. So we have different coaches doing different things, changing things (and maybe for the good if done 3-4 monts ahead so the athlete has time to integrate the new techniques, styles, etc into their basic style) just prior to the Worlds. Changes usually upset an athlete's rhythm for awhile until that change is fully integrated. I wasn't at the training camp, so I don't know what they were focusing on, but my concept of a training camp is to get the athlete in peak condition, teach new skills to add to their own arsenal, refine techniques, etc. Maybe I don't know what happens at the camps and residency program. Enlighten me. I always want to learn.
I don't think the certification is foolish, but I do think it should be more accessible. It should also be offered at national tournaments. If they want to keep the level 4 at the Springs, fine, but have it more often. I think that the curriculum for the Level 3 and especially the Level 4 should be standardized, not just what someone wants to teach that time.

You are correct. I have been waiting for a year or two to be able to go to a TTT clinic. They should have these at least 2 times per year so that coaches can become level 3 and 4 certified. I have been giving clinics and if given the chance I would give higher level clinics, but I can't until I get the certification.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Nov 2007, 11:10

Roberts J wrote:
amy wrote:Another contributing factor to this is that many other countries treat their top level amateur athletes like professionals. In that, they don't have to have jobs and support themselves and pay for their training. (someone correct me if I'm wrong here)

I know I would be a lot better if I didn't have to work and worry about rent, gym fees and traveling to tournaments.
Top 4 Russians get a good deal of money per month. The #1 and #2 boxers get more then 2,500 Euro a month. I heard even 5,000 Europe a month. With that type of money in easter europe, you are set. They can focus only on training, good point.

I hear that Rau'shee is getting $3,000 per month. Not quite the same, but not bad.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Nov 2007, 11:11

squarering wrote:I don't believe that skills are honed that much at the camp. I do think it is more about conditioning and training at altitude to give an edge in that aspect. I believe they add in a mental condition program that is so foreign to these kids that most of them have a hard time grasping it or completely reject the idea as a useful tool because it has not been a part of their program all along like in some countries. I also think it is a time that boxers are schooled on how to handle media and kept under a watchful eye to insure proper weights and limited injuries. That is not saying that their personal coach would not do the same thing. In fact there were still weight problems and some injuries. Truth is these kids have their styles ingrained by their coached for 7,8,9 years and you are not going to take a kid in 8 weeks and make him better, especially if you don't have one hot shot of a coach that can make a good connection with the team. Even some of the top pros can't change their style in 8 weeks with the highest paid coaches in the world, and that's one on one every day. Most of the personal coaches are more worried about their kids skills getting dull if it is not honed with the same intensity that a personal coach drills it. Getting a boxer to trust a new coach that he hardly knows over someone that he has trusted his life with, is pretty tough. In some cases trying to change him might cause resentment by the boxer. Now if you bring a coach that has gone to a couple Olympics and churned out a bunch of medals over the years I would say " boys keep your eyes and ears open, this guy is proven to know some things that can help you ". I don't know if we have a coach in the country that falls into that category. Most good coaches can improve at least something on just about any boxer but the timing is not always best to do it. And that's all I've got to say about that.

Great post Hal. I couldn't agree with you more.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 09 Nov 2007, 20:30

Dennis, sorry to report that Train The Trainer is NOT in the 2008 USAB budget.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 09 Nov 2007, 23:09

boxmel wrote:Dennis, sorry to report that Train The Trainer is NOT in the 2008 USAB budget.

Just do an on-line course then. I have been involved in boxing off-and-on and as a boxer, coach and official since 1980. I think I could learn whatever it is I don't already know and pass the test with flying colors. That way I could help other coaches by giving clinics.

USA Boxing could just ask some level 4 coaches to give a clinic at the National Golden Gloves next year. It would be nice since it is in Grand Rapids so I wouldn't have to travel to do it. I will even help arrange it.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 10 Nov 2007, 07:08

I suggest you either contact Tom Coulter or Jim Millman with your suggestion. They should actually give a coaches clinic at any major national tournament - they used to.....Let me know what the response is.

squarering · Post by **squarering** » 10 Nov 2007, 16:12

Although the coaches clinics are informative, unless it's a train the trainer type program, you do not learn a lot about winning international bouts. It seems that the three key things after conditioning is right, is how to work the scoring system to your boxers best interest. What style of punching will produce the best results and ring position so that the judge are in a postion to see your boxer score and your boxer moves his opponent into a position when all the judges can not see scoring blows while he is not on the offense. That stuff has to drilled and drilled until it becomes second nature, But I think that would be more helpful than anything else. Just my opinion