Aside from the confirmed thrown fights (e.g LaMotta-Fox) were there any fights that you thought were fishy? I'm not talking about suspect judging but actual dives.
I'll start with a very famous suspect one - Carnera-Sharkey...
Fights That You Suspect Ended In The Loser Taking A Dive?
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Collins2000
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Heartbreak_Kid79
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lights-out
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dagosd2000
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Goodnight, Irene
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I will always have my suspicions about the first Ali-Liston encounter. It's not that I consider it so far-fetched Ali could've beaten Liston in 1964 --- I don't, it was just the way Liston looked that night. Yes, he was ageing, yes, he was inactive prior to the bout. But people neatly categorise Ali's prime as 64-67 starting with his initial win over Liston. Look at Ali in the return match. This is the prime Ali, physically more mature, stronger, larger & perhaps more durable as well.
In previous fights, Ali was caught & felled by Henry Cooper & given life-&-death by Doug Jones. These two men don't even belong on the same planet as even an ageing Sonny Liston. I just can't interpret what I see in there as Liston giving his best. The Sonny Liston unable to dispense with a gawky, somewhat fragile 19-fight rookie who is blind? Ali was a tremendous talent, but...
Whatever you may think, there is no denying there was every reason for the mob to muscle in & force Liston to throw this. You can't deny the motive was there, any more than I can deny hard evidence for a fix has never materialised. & the mob securing a future share in Ali's coming bouts ahead of the first fight? Why? Only one reason comes to my mind.
Now, let me clarify my ultimate stance by saying I essentially accept this as a legitimate result by virtue of there being no solid evidence to the contrary. & I think head-to-head in their primes, I have little doubt the Liston of the late 50's would come up short against the Ali of, say, 65-67 more often than not. All I'm saying is this...I would not be left agape if it turned out this match was not on the level.
In previous fights, Ali was caught & felled by Henry Cooper & given life-&-death by Doug Jones. These two men don't even belong on the same planet as even an ageing Sonny Liston. I just can't interpret what I see in there as Liston giving his best. The Sonny Liston unable to dispense with a gawky, somewhat fragile 19-fight rookie who is blind? Ali was a tremendous talent, but...
Whatever you may think, there is no denying there was every reason for the mob to muscle in & force Liston to throw this. You can't deny the motive was there, any more than I can deny hard evidence for a fix has never materialised. & the mob securing a future share in Ali's coming bouts ahead of the first fight? Why? Only one reason comes to my mind.
Now, let me clarify my ultimate stance by saying I essentially accept this as a legitimate result by virtue of there being no solid evidence to the contrary. & I think head-to-head in their primes, I have little doubt the Liston of the late 50's would come up short against the Ali of, say, 65-67 more often than not. All I'm saying is this...I would not be left agape if it turned out this match was not on the level.
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dagosd2000
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I think it is the other way around my friend. I think the 1st fight was on the level. If you look at the film Liston is coming forward pressing the action. There are times when Clay is tying him up and Liston is furiously banging away at his body. Then his corner got desperate and resorted to something they did in previous fights-put linament on Sonny's gloves and rubbing it in Clay's eyes. Clay was panicked and told Dundee to "pull off" my gloves. That doesn't sound like a fix for Sonny to take a dive.Goodnight, Irene wrote:I will always have my suspicions about the first Ali-Liston encounter. It's not that I consider it so far-fetched Ali could've beaten Liston in 1964 --- I don't, it was just the way Liston looked that night. Yes, he was ageing, yes, he was inactive prior to the bout. But people neatly categorise Ali's prime as 64-67 starting with his initial win over Liston. Look at Ali in the return match. This is the prime Ali, physically more mature, stronger, larger & perhaps more durable as well.
In previous fights, Ali was caught & felled by Henry Cooper & given life-&-death by Doug Jones. These two men don't even belong on the same planet as even an ageing Sonny Liston. I just can't interpret what I see in there as Liston giving his best. The Sonny Liston unable to dispense with a gawky, somewhat fragile 19-fight rookie who is blind? Ali was a tremendous talent, but...
Whatever you may think, there is no denying there was every reason for the mob to muscle in & force Liston to throw this. You can't deny the motive was there, any more than I can deny hard evidence for a fix has never materialised. & the mob securing a future share in Ali's coming bouts ahead of the first fight? Why? Only one reason comes to my mind.
Now, let me clarify my ultimate stance by saying I essentially accept this as a legitimate result by virtue of there being no solid evidence to the contrary. & I think head-to-head in their primes, I have little doubt the Liston of the late 50's would come up short against the Ali of, say, 65-67 more often than not. All I'm saying is this...I would not be left agape if it turned out this match was not on the level.
Remember just before the fight Clay has an attack of appendicitus and the fight is postponed. Liston's wife said afterwards that her husband stopped training. Sonny went into the ring in Miami out of shape. He spit out his mouthpiece and quit on his stool. He tried to tell the commission he dislocated his shoulder. If you look at the photos after the fight,Clay dislocated his face.
I think the fix was in on the second fight,but it wasn't the mob. It was the Black Muslims. Ali had converted to Islam. The Black Muslims paid Sonny a visit at his training camp. What was discussed was never known,but I'm sure they told him to do the ol' flipper roo or else.The first thing Ali asked his corner was if it "was a fix" However I don't think Sonny had the stomach for it any more. A troubled man with an ugly past. Couldn't get a license to fight in New York. Tied in as a muscle guy with Ash Resnick and the mob in Vegas. When he won the title and returned home to Philly,no one was at the airport. He supposedly overdosed on heroin. A tragic figure.
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Goodnight, Irene
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It is easy to forget (especially with the advent of such taken liberties as the 2002 film, "Ali") that the entire case of the Monsel solution getting into Ali's eyes intentionally is, was & always has been nothing more solid than a theory. Hard evidence just isn't there that Liston set out to blind Ali. If it happened inadvertantly, that sure wouldn't be the first time (Think Holyfield-Cooper & 100 other such examples). Maybe Liston did it & perhaps he didn't, but the truth is people just don't know, however sure they think themselves to be.
Liston stopped training when the fight was delayed? I thought that was a result of calf surgery which happened during the run-in to the second bout, not the original. Not sure if I have that mixed up or if there was a delay to both fights. I'm quite sure though that the story goes Liston worked as hard as he ever did for the return match, but when it was delayed, fell apart.
I believe Liston's shoulder injury was later proven to be legitimate, not feigned. Ali sure did mangle his features, no denying that. At this stage of their respective careers looking at Ali's recent bouts, I'm simply saying Ali may not have had the poise, experience or durability to beat Liston. He could have, I'm just not convinced entirely the fight was on the level. It wouldn't really surprise me if the fight was legit. It wouldn't really surprise me if it were a fix.
As for the rematch, I suspect Liston just flat-out quit of his own volition. But who really knows? The man himself took it to his grave. Supposedly his death didn't include foul play but we can't even be sure of that. A mysterious character, truly, from the cradle to the grave.
Liston stopped training when the fight was delayed? I thought that was a result of calf surgery which happened during the run-in to the second bout, not the original. Not sure if I have that mixed up or if there was a delay to both fights. I'm quite sure though that the story goes Liston worked as hard as he ever did for the return match, but when it was delayed, fell apart.
I believe Liston's shoulder injury was later proven to be legitimate, not feigned. Ali sure did mangle his features, no denying that. At this stage of their respective careers looking at Ali's recent bouts, I'm simply saying Ali may not have had the poise, experience or durability to beat Liston. He could have, I'm just not convinced entirely the fight was on the level. It wouldn't really surprise me if the fight was legit. It wouldn't really surprise me if it were a fix.
As for the rematch, I suspect Liston just flat-out quit of his own volition. But who really knows? The man himself took it to his grave. Supposedly his death didn't include foul play but we can't even be sure of that. A mysterious character, truly, from the cradle to the grave.
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I Feel Fine
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I can't believe that any serious boxing fan would question Clay-Liston. Liston clearly tried hard to knock out Clay, he actually fought a better fight than he's given credit for. He hurt Clay a couple of times, and went on a couple of rampages in the fight trying to get to Clay. I don't see the case for saying that Liston wasn't trying to stop Clay when Clay was having trouble seeing. He was throwing hard shots, but Clay even then was a bigger guy and he was able to tie, push and simply run his way to survival. And he wasn't blinded for the entire round, either. Not too hard to imagine him surviving, really. As to the notion that Liston tried to blind him, I don't think we can know that, but I do know that Bert Sugar (who I would admit is unreliable) has said that Liston also blinded Folley and Machen. I saw the Machen fight and didn't see any indication of that, but who knows. I haven't seen the Folley fight.
If you think Clay took Jones or Cooper half as seriously as he took Liston then you're just not paying attention. He was very serious going into the Liston fight, while Jones and Cooper were jokes to him and were just two fights he had to get out of the way to get to his goal of fighting Liston. That's like saying that Rahman must have thrown the Lewis rematch because of what happened in the first fight, or that Cuevas and Moore must have thrown their fights against Duran because of how badly he lost to Laing. The fact is that things change between fights, and fighters take certain fights more seriously than others. It happens all the time in boxing. Fighter A will beat great Fighter B and get beat or struggle with crappy Fighter C.
How is it that Johannson managed to knock Machen out in one round, but Machen went 12 with a prime Liston? Johannson isn't on the same planet as Liston. But things happen in boxing. I'm sure Machen took Liston a lot more seriously.
Clay was an Olympic Gold Medal winner, and they tend to win titles at younger ages. He had also been a professional boxer for four years. He had two tough fights prior to that that probably toughened him up a bit. And, most importantly, he was in there with a serious opponent who he was probably a little intimidated by and Clay had to put everything he had into the fight. When Clay, or Ali, took an opponent seriously the difference in his performance was pretty clear. The challenge of having to fight Liston brought the best out in Clay, and when a fighter is serious he can do things that people don't expect. Clay's punches were certainly having an effect on Liston, it wasn't the mob that was busting up and cutting Liston's face. And given what Clay would grow to be, and given that just a year later he put on such a remarkably dazzling display against Patterson, I hardly think its too doubtful that he had it in him to upset an aging, though still good champion. And the fact is that Clay's mobile style was probably the type that would give Liston trouble; styles make fights. And, even then, Clay-Liston was a closer fight than people make it out to be. I don't agree with the judges who had it even, but Clay was probably only winning by a round or two by the time Liston quit.
First its Ali-Norton II, then the Frazier rematches, now the Liston fight. Is Ali going to get credit for any of his wins?
Anyway, LaMotta-Fox was a fix according to LaMotta. Many of Carnera's fights were supposedly fixed, including his win over Sharkey and one of his defenses. In recent years I thought Pemberton-Manfredo looked fixed, but who knows. As for Tyson-Seldon, I think lot of people feel Seldon was just so afraid of Tyson that he threw himself on the ground and got counted out. Again, who knows.
If you think Clay took Jones or Cooper half as seriously as he took Liston then you're just not paying attention. He was very serious going into the Liston fight, while Jones and Cooper were jokes to him and were just two fights he had to get out of the way to get to his goal of fighting Liston. That's like saying that Rahman must have thrown the Lewis rematch because of what happened in the first fight, or that Cuevas and Moore must have thrown their fights against Duran because of how badly he lost to Laing. The fact is that things change between fights, and fighters take certain fights more seriously than others. It happens all the time in boxing. Fighter A will beat great Fighter B and get beat or struggle with crappy Fighter C.
How is it that Johannson managed to knock Machen out in one round, but Machen went 12 with a prime Liston? Johannson isn't on the same planet as Liston. But things happen in boxing. I'm sure Machen took Liston a lot more seriously.
Clay was an Olympic Gold Medal winner, and they tend to win titles at younger ages. He had also been a professional boxer for four years. He had two tough fights prior to that that probably toughened him up a bit. And, most importantly, he was in there with a serious opponent who he was probably a little intimidated by and Clay had to put everything he had into the fight. When Clay, or Ali, took an opponent seriously the difference in his performance was pretty clear. The challenge of having to fight Liston brought the best out in Clay, and when a fighter is serious he can do things that people don't expect. Clay's punches were certainly having an effect on Liston, it wasn't the mob that was busting up and cutting Liston's face. And given what Clay would grow to be, and given that just a year later he put on such a remarkably dazzling display against Patterson, I hardly think its too doubtful that he had it in him to upset an aging, though still good champion. And the fact is that Clay's mobile style was probably the type that would give Liston trouble; styles make fights. And, even then, Clay-Liston was a closer fight than people make it out to be. I don't agree with the judges who had it even, but Clay was probably only winning by a round or two by the time Liston quit.
First its Ali-Norton II, then the Frazier rematches, now the Liston fight. Is Ali going to get credit for any of his wins?
Anyway, LaMotta-Fox was a fix according to LaMotta. Many of Carnera's fights were supposedly fixed, including his win over Sharkey and one of his defenses. In recent years I thought Pemberton-Manfredo looked fixed, but who knows. As for Tyson-Seldon, I think lot of people feel Seldon was just so afraid of Tyson that he threw himself on the ground and got counted out. Again, who knows.
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The Great John L
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dagosd2000
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[quote="Goodnight, Irene"]It is easy to forget (especially with the advent of such taken liberties as the 2002 film, "Ali") that the entire case of the Monsel solution getting into Ali's eyes intentionally is, was & always has been nothing more solid than a theory. Hard evidence just isn't there that Liston set out to blind Ali. If it happened inadvertantly, that sure wouldn't be the first time (Think Holyfield-Cooper & 100 other such examples). Maybe Liston did it & perhaps he didn't, but the truth is people just don't know, however sure they think themselves to be.
I remember watching the fight on closed screen and many times after and even the announcer says he believes something has gotten in Clay's eyes(in this fight he was still Clay). Angelo Dundee said afterwards one of the reasons he didn't pull off the gloves is that the Black Muslims sitting near ringside rushed Clay's corner(he announced his conversion to Islam after the fight) thinking Angelo made a deal with the mob to throw the fight.
As far as the shoulder,you're right. He had problems with it. He used linament on it. But that night it wasn't the shoulder that made him retire,it was a fighter that had a stronger will to win.
I remember watching the fight on closed screen and many times after and even the announcer says he believes something has gotten in Clay's eyes(in this fight he was still Clay). Angelo Dundee said afterwards one of the reasons he didn't pull off the gloves is that the Black Muslims sitting near ringside rushed Clay's corner(he announced his conversion to Islam after the fight) thinking Angelo made a deal with the mob to throw the fight.
As far as the shoulder,you're right. He had problems with it. He used linament on it. But that night it wasn't the shoulder that made him retire,it was a fighter that had a stronger will to win.
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dagosd2000
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[quote="Goodnight, Irene"]It is easy to forget (especially with the advent of such taken liberties as the 2002 film, "Ali") that the entire case of the Monsel solution getting into Ali's eyes intentionally is, was & always has been nothing more solid than a theory. Hard evidence just isn't there that Liston set out to blind Ali. If it happened inadvertantly, that sure wouldn't be the first time (Think Holyfield-Cooper & 100 other such examples). Maybe Liston did it & perhaps he didn't, but the truth is people just don't know, however sure they think themselves to be.
I remember watching the fight on closed screen and many times after and even the announcer says he believes something has gotten in Clay's eyes(in this fight he was still Clay). Angelo Dundee said afterwards one of the reasons he didn't pull off the gloves is that the Black Muslims sitting near ringside rushed Clay's corner(he announced his conversion to Islam after the fight) thinking Angelo made a deal with the mob to throw the fight.
As far as the shoulder,you're right. He had problems with it. He used linament on it. But that night it wasn't the shoulder that made him retire,it was a fighter that had a stronger will to win.
I remember watching the fight on closed screen and many times after and even the announcer says he believes something has gotten in Clay's eyes(in this fight he was still Clay). Angelo Dundee said afterwards one of the reasons he didn't pull off the gloves is that the Black Muslims sitting near ringside rushed Clay's corner(he announced his conversion to Islam after the fight) thinking Angelo made a deal with the mob to throw the fight.
As far as the shoulder,you're right. He had problems with it. He used linament on it. But that night it wasn't the shoulder that made him retire,it was a fighter that had a stronger will to win.
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dagosd2000
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Ray Robinson never threw a fight,instead he would carry a fighter to cooperate with the mob. If you ever get a chance to see his bout with Charley Fusari(15 rd. decision welter title) it is comical. Ray is playing cat and mouse with the guy. Sometimes he would open up to show you how easy he could have taken him out. After the fight in the ring,Fusari is more happy than Ray. Fusari probably didn't know what was going on. Hey,he could always say he went the distance with the great Sugar Ray
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Goodnight, Irene
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Got a lot of individual responses here but not the time to print them all. So I'll just say this...I Feel Fine wrote:I can't believe that any serious boxing fan would question Clay-Liston. Liston clearly tried hard to knock out Clay, he actually fought a better fight than he's given credit for. He hurt Clay a couple of times, and went on a couple of rampages in the fight trying to get to Clay. I don't see the case for saying that Liston wasn't trying to stop Clay when Clay was having trouble seeing. He was throwing hard shots, but Clay even then was a bigger guy and he was able to tie, push and simply run his way to survival. And he wasn't blinded for the entire round, either. Not too hard to imagine him surviving, really. As to the notion that Liston tried to blind him, I don't think we can know that, but I do know that Bert Sugar (who I would admit is unreliable) has said that Liston also blinded Folley and Machen. I saw the Machen fight and didn't see any indication of that, but who knows. I haven't seen the Folley fight.
If you think Clay took Jones or Cooper half as seriously as he took Liston then you're just not paying attention. He was very serious going into the Liston fight, while Jones and Cooper were jokes to him and were just two fights he had to get out of the way to get to his goal of fighting Liston. That's like saying that Rahman must have thrown the Lewis rematch because of what happened in the first fight, or that Cuevas and Moore must have thrown their fights against Duran because of how badly he lost to Laing. The fact is that things change between fights, and fighters take certain fights more seriously than others. It happens all the time in boxing. Fighter A will beat great Fighter B and get beat or struggle with crappy Fighter C.
How is it that Johannson managed to knock Machen out in one round, but Machen went 12 with a prime Liston? Johannson isn't on the same planet as Liston. But things happen in boxing. I'm sure Machen took Liston a lot more seriously.
Clay was an Olympic Gold Medal winner, and they tend to win titles at younger ages. He had also been a professional boxer for four years. He had two tough fights prior to that that probably toughened him up a bit. And, most importantly, he was in there with a serious opponent who he was probably a little intimidated by and Clay had to put everything he had into the fight. When Clay, or Ali, took an opponent seriously the difference in his performance was pretty clear. The challenge of having to fight Liston brought the best out in Clay, and when a fighter is serious he can do things that people don't expect. Clay's punches were certainly having an effect on Liston, it wasn't the mob that was busting up and cutting Liston's face. And given what Clay would grow to be, and given that just a year later he put on such a remarkably dazzling display against Patterson, I hardly think its too doubtful that he had it in him to upset an aging, though still good champion. And the fact is that Clay's mobile style was probably the type that would give Liston trouble; styles make fights. And, even then, Clay-Liston was a closer fight than people make it out to be. I don't agree with the judges who had it even, but Clay was probably only winning by a round or two by the time Liston quit.
First its Ali-Norton II, then the Frazier rematches, now the Liston fight. Is Ali going to get credit for any of his wins?
Anyway, LaMotta-Fox was a fix according to LaMotta. Many of Carnera's fights were supposedly fixed, including his win over Sharkey and one of his defenses. In recent years I thought Pemberton-Manfredo looked fixed, but who knows. As for Tyson-Seldon, I think lot of people feel Seldon was just so afraid of Tyson that he threw himself on the ground and got counted out. Again, who knows.
1. C'mon. You really are gonna tell me you would be genuinely astounded if the fight was a fix, given the mob's involvement in Liston's career, their history of fixing fights, their procurement of shares in Ali's future ahead of the initial bout, & Ali's powerful friends in the NOI? It would really, truly shock you?
2. I know you weren't sticking it to me specifically, but let's stay on point. I didn't criticise Ali in any of those other fights. For the record, my scorecard was like this...
Ali-Frazier III: 8-5-1 Ali
Ali-Frazier II: 8-4 Ali
Ali-Norton II: 6-5-1 Ali
"Now it's Ali-Liston I being criticised!?" That fight has been questioned from the minute it went down, mate.
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I Feel Fine
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I wasn't criticizing you specifically, I was talking about the forum in general. This happens all the time. I can't think of a fighter, other than maybe Sugar Ray Leonard, who beat so many top fighters and yet can't escape scrutiny for maybe all of his biggest wins. Its like Ali is a WWE wrestler getting handed win after win.
Anyway, yes, considering how competitive the fight was (and it was competitive, it was not Tyson-Douglas), considering the damage Liston took in the fight, considering that Clay's abilities and style were perfectly suitable to beat someone like Liston even at that stage, and because there were a couple of times in the fight where Liston had Clay hurt and was trying pretty hard to finish him I see no reason to assume the fight was fixed. And I don't say that to support my argument, I honestly feel every time I watch the fight that Liston is doing a lot more than he's given credit for. I think people were so surprised that Clay was doing so well that it looked like Liston wasn't doing anything, sort of like what happened in Clay-Jones.
And sure, any fight can be fixed, but this fight seems no more likely to be fixed than any other fight. We can really never know. It is true that there were questions about that fight from the beginning, but that fight was a media circus. People thought Clay was going to fly to South America to avoid the fight, there were all sorts of silly rumors... not sure I would take any of it seriously. The second fight is another story, but even then I tend to think that Liston was more concerned about rumors that there were snipers in the crowd than he was about Ali. And I think the second fight sort of shows why the first fight is not a fix... if you wanna fix a fight you don't throw serious punches and you go down from a punch ASAP. Liston threw and landed many serious punches in the first fight, threw none in the second. He took a six round beating the first time, went down right away the second time. Liston's acting ability must have really declined a great deal from the first to the second fight, in the first fight he looked legitimately surprised by what was happening and looked like he was legitimately trying to catch this constantly moving opponent with a big shot... in the second fight he was falling all over himself trying to look like Berbick against Tyson.
There are rumors also that Archie Moore threw his fight with Rocky Marciano. But again, if you're going to do that why not go down from the first punch, or at least a few rounds into it, rather than letting Rocky beat you half to death and knock you down four or five times. I don't buy that one either.
Anyway, yes, considering how competitive the fight was (and it was competitive, it was not Tyson-Douglas), considering the damage Liston took in the fight, considering that Clay's abilities and style were perfectly suitable to beat someone like Liston even at that stage, and because there were a couple of times in the fight where Liston had Clay hurt and was trying pretty hard to finish him I see no reason to assume the fight was fixed. And I don't say that to support my argument, I honestly feel every time I watch the fight that Liston is doing a lot more than he's given credit for. I think people were so surprised that Clay was doing so well that it looked like Liston wasn't doing anything, sort of like what happened in Clay-Jones.
And sure, any fight can be fixed, but this fight seems no more likely to be fixed than any other fight. We can really never know. It is true that there were questions about that fight from the beginning, but that fight was a media circus. People thought Clay was going to fly to South America to avoid the fight, there were all sorts of silly rumors... not sure I would take any of it seriously. The second fight is another story, but even then I tend to think that Liston was more concerned about rumors that there were snipers in the crowd than he was about Ali. And I think the second fight sort of shows why the first fight is not a fix... if you wanna fix a fight you don't throw serious punches and you go down from a punch ASAP. Liston threw and landed many serious punches in the first fight, threw none in the second. He took a six round beating the first time, went down right away the second time. Liston's acting ability must have really declined a great deal from the first to the second fight, in the first fight he looked legitimately surprised by what was happening and looked like he was legitimately trying to catch this constantly moving opponent with a big shot... in the second fight he was falling all over himself trying to look like Berbick against Tyson.
There are rumors also that Archie Moore threw his fight with Rocky Marciano. But again, if you're going to do that why not go down from the first punch, or at least a few rounds into it, rather than letting Rocky beat you half to death and knock you down four or five times. I don't buy that one either.
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I Feel Fine
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And maybe the style was the reason. Maybe Liston had trouble with mobile fighters. It could be that Machen's mobile style made it harder for Liston to land a knock out punch, and perhaps it was the same when he fought Clay.
Either way, as I said in my last post, we're not dealing with a great actor here. If Liston took a dive in the second fight, and I suspect he did, he showed himself to be a poor actor. I therefore find it hard to believe that he was faking it in the first fight. Ali was young but he was starting to mature and he put on a great performance against an opponent who he took very seriously, and Liston took quite a beating. And Ali's age is not an excuse considering what he did to Patterson only a year later... clearly he was getting better, and the first Liston bout was just the first indication of that. I think its quite unfair to try to create doubt about this fight.
Either way, as I said in my last post, we're not dealing with a great actor here. If Liston took a dive in the second fight, and I suspect he did, he showed himself to be a poor actor. I therefore find it hard to believe that he was faking it in the first fight. Ali was young but he was starting to mature and he put on a great performance against an opponent who he took very seriously, and Liston took quite a beating. And Ali's age is not an excuse considering what he did to Patterson only a year later... clearly he was getting better, and the first Liston bout was just the first indication of that. I think its quite unfair to try to create doubt about this fight.
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Collins2000
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In the first fight Liston took a sustained beating at the hands of a fighter who was better in every department on the night.
In the rematch, Sonny realised early on that it wasn't going to be any different that night and decided to bail out early. That's a fighters perogative but he has to live with the consequences.
Still, imagine if Ali had ever taken the easy way out.
In the rematch, Sonny realised early on that it wasn't going to be any different that night and decided to bail out early. That's a fighters perogative but he has to live with the consequences.
Still, imagine if Ali had ever taken the easy way out.
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Goodnight, Irene
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Look at those fights you know in hindsight were fixed, a lot of those turn-of-the-century ones for example. It's not as though the fighter pencilled in to take a dive falls down in the opening seconds is it? The concept that Liston appeared to try hard to knock Ali out doesn't assist the theory he took a dive, but it can't be used to clear the fight of suspicion.
If, hypothetically, Liston threw it, he has to make it look at least moderately respectable, does he not? Keep in mind how absurd people felt an Ali victory would be at that time. It wasn't going to happen. Liston couldn't just blatantly fall apart out there, it wasn't a club fight. It wasn't even a competitive fight in the eyes of the forecasting experts.
Again, I'm not arguing I feel this fight was a fix. I'm just stating it wouldn't surprise me.
If, hypothetically, Liston threw it, he has to make it look at least moderately respectable, does he not? Keep in mind how absurd people felt an Ali victory would be at that time. It wasn't going to happen. Liston couldn't just blatantly fall apart out there, it wasn't a club fight. It wasn't even a competitive fight in the eyes of the forecasting experts.
Again, I'm not arguing I feel this fight was a fix. I'm just stating it wouldn't surprise me.
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
I don't know that Robinson would have knocked out Armstrong, but based on descriptions of the fight that I've heard he did apparently go easy on Armstrong and used his jab for most of the fight, rather than using power shots.
I would say, again, that Ali took Liston a lot more seriously than Jones. Quarry didn't hit Ali much in the first fight. Ali traded a lot with Quarry in the second fight, specifically round 6. Ali never did that with Liston, he was always on the move in that fight. But, that said, I don't really agree. Liston did land lot of shots in the first fight. And to be fair he probably wasn't 100% in shape, and he had only fought like three rounds in three years or whatever it was by then. I'm sure that would effect his accuracy.
I agree about Sugar, and I said as much in that very post. I also admitted that I'd never seen the Folley fight. I have indeed seen the Machen fight, I have it on tape actually, and I agree that Machen was in survival mode. My only point was that some fighters do better against certain opponents than others. Machen took Liston more seriously, and so he didn't walk into anything stupid like he did against Johannson. Ali was also much more cautious against Liston than he was in prior fights.
I do know that there was something about Ali's contract or management inbetween Liston fights, and that was the reason why the WBA stripped him. But I've never heard of Liston's team buying Ali's contract. Didn't the black Muslims manage Ali after the first Liston fight? I don't really remember.
I would say, again, that Ali took Liston a lot more seriously than Jones. Quarry didn't hit Ali much in the first fight. Ali traded a lot with Quarry in the second fight, specifically round 6. Ali never did that with Liston, he was always on the move in that fight. But, that said, I don't really agree. Liston did land lot of shots in the first fight. And to be fair he probably wasn't 100% in shape, and he had only fought like three rounds in three years or whatever it was by then. I'm sure that would effect his accuracy.
I agree about Sugar, and I said as much in that very post. I also admitted that I'd never seen the Folley fight. I have indeed seen the Machen fight, I have it on tape actually, and I agree that Machen was in survival mode. My only point was that some fighters do better against certain opponents than others. Machen took Liston more seriously, and so he didn't walk into anything stupid like he did against Johannson. Ali was also much more cautious against Liston than he was in prior fights.
I do know that there was something about Ali's contract or management inbetween Liston fights, and that was the reason why the WBA stripped him. But I've never heard of Liston's team buying Ali's contract. Didn't the black Muslims manage Ali after the first Liston fight? I don't really remember.
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43