If Jones retired after Ruiz fight

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 07 Nov 2007, 08:26

... where would he stand in the all time P4P list?

Most fighters unfortunatly carry on past their peak, but in 2003 Jones was already touted as a living legend, and beating Ruiz was the icing on the cake.

Had he retired after beating Ruiz ould he have squeezed into an all time Top 20 P4P list?

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 07 Nov 2007, 08:55

Yes, I think so. Losing against Tarver and Johnson made people start asking a lot of questions about his chin, which hadnt been asked until his reflexes slowed.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 07 Nov 2007, 09:50

A highly talented fighter but he just doesn't/didn't have the record to get into my top 50.

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 07 Nov 2007, 10:01

IF Jones had retired after the Ruiz fight he would have carried into his legacy an aura of invincibility. Nobody had beat him or really given him a scare. Montell Griffin doesn't count. There would be no "glass chin" comments. It would be more of "his chin was never really tested, but he was never beat." He would have carried into his legacy the same aura that Marciano carried which is huge. Honestly, would Marciano be in people's top 20 if he had lost (not by DQ either)? Probably not. He beat a lot of HOF fighters but HOF fighters past their primes. I think if Jones would have retired after Ruiz, that mystique would have generated huge buzz. Enough to get him into top 20 lists. But a fighter really can carry on too long. Now... no, he's not top 20. The shield of invincibility has been broken.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 07 Nov 2007, 11:32

Ezzard wrote:A highly talented fighter but he just doesn't/didn't have the record to get into my top 50.

Even straight after the Ruiz fight? I rate him top 50 anyway, even after his losses to Tarver and Johnson, he was over the hill at this stage

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 07 Nov 2007, 12:16

dr_devious wrote:
Ezzard wrote:A highly talented fighter but he just doesn't/didn't have the record to get into my top 50.
Even straight after the Ruiz fight? I rate him top 50 anyway, even after his losses to Tarver and Johnson, he was over the hill at this stage

Nothing against his abilities I just rate more on who people fought. The Hopkins and Toney wins make him a great. Ruiz and Hill are good wins and coming back from his first defeat was good too, but there are a lot of nothing fights in there and a lot of opportunities missed.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 08 Nov 2007, 05:14

Novelty goat wrote:Difficult to undo the memory of the Tarver and Johnson fights, but I remember thinking at the time of the Ruiz fight, that Jones could pick no better time to retire. I think he would absolutely be regarded as an all time great if he had retired right then. Even after the first Tarver fight he might have been given a pass as just having had an off night.

I always felt that one of the reasons people say that Jones didn't face great competition is that his skill level was so high that his fights looked too easy. In his prime, he made contenders look like club fighters.

Too many fights that didn't happen though. The competition was out there.

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 08 Nov 2007, 05:35

Ezzard wrote:
Novelty goat wrote:Difficult to undo the memory of the Tarver and Johnson fights, but I remember thinking at the time of the Ruiz fight, that Jones could pick no better time to retire. I think he would absolutely be regarded as an all time great if he had retired right then. Even after the first Tarver fight he might have been given a pass as just having had an off night.

I always felt that one of the reasons people say that Jones didn't face great competition is that his skill level was so high that his fights looked too easy. In his prime, he made contenders look like club fighters.
Too many fights that didn't happen though. The competition was out there.

Like....????

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 08 Nov 2007, 06:29

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... s&start=25

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... =roy+jones

Klee Gluckman · Post by **Klee Gluckman** » 08 Nov 2007, 07:01

He never fought a guy like Spinks and if he had he would been badly beaten.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 08 Nov 2007, 07:36

Klee Gluckman wrote:He never fought a guy like Spinks and if he had he would been badly beaten.

If that were the case, there'd be no shame in that though. & for that matter, I suspect the young Jones Jr's power & athleticism had the capacity to give Spinks trouble.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 08 Nov 2007, 07:37

of course he should have retired. i know it, you know it and i think jones knows it.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 08 Nov 2007, 13:03

Novelty goat wrote:
Ezzard wrote:
Novelty goat wrote:Difficult to undo the memory of the Tarver and Johnson fights, but I remember thinking at the time of the Ruiz fight, that Jones could pick no better time to retire. I think he would absolutely be regarded as an all time great if he had retired right then. Even after the first Tarver fight he might have been given a pass as just having had an off night.

I always felt that one of the reasons people say that Jones didn't face great competition is that his skill level was so high that his fights looked too easy. In his prime, he made contenders look like club fighters.
Too many fights that didn't happen though. The competition was out there.
He beat Hopkins and Toney easily. He could have fought DM but as much as liked him (DM), I don't think it would have been a competetive fight.

Not the point...

I'd favour him too. I'd favour Jones is rematches with Toney and Hopkins. I'd favour him over Eubank, Benn, DM, McClellan, etc... but the point is he didn't take any of those fights.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Nov 2007, 13:25

I'm not a Jones Jr fan by any means but I feel you have to rank him in a top 50 PFP of all time.

20???

No, just doesn't have the resume.

lights-out · Post by **lights-out** » 08 Nov 2007, 20:03

dr_devious wrote:Yes, I think so. Losing against Tarver and Johnson made people start asking a lot of questions about his chin, which hadnt been asked until his reflexes slowed.

Johnson hit Jones in the head.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Nov 2007, 02:59

He should have fought Tarver first then moved up and fought Ruiz. But I guess thats easy to say in hindsight.

There were a lot of fighters in his era who he didn't fight. Some of it probably wasn't his fault, but some of it was. His win over Hopkins doesn't really mean quite as much to me, Hopkins wasn't half the fighter he would be in later years. Not to say I don't think Jones would have won a rematch.

But if he had retired off the Ruiz win, I don't know how much higher he would be. I think most people acknowledgethat Jones was finished after that fight, so I'm not sure how much it plays into people's minds that he lost to Tarver and Johnson, at least in terms of his pound for pound all time ranking. But I could be wrong about that. I personally don't hold it against him too much. I probably wouldn't rank him top 50, but I probably would rank him top 70.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 09 Nov 2007, 04:44

dempseyfire wrote:I'm not a Jones Jr fan by any means but I feel you have to rank him in a top 50 PFP of all time.

20???

No, just doesn't have the resume.

Read the post again. Its top 20 had he retired 2003 and then NOT lost to Tarver/Johnson.

T.M.K · Post by **T.M.K** » 02 Dec 2007, 15:26

npal wrote:IF Jones had retired after the Ruiz fight he would have carried into his legacy an aura of invincibility. Nobody had beat him or really given him a scare. Montell Griffin doesn't count. There would be no "glass chin" comments. It would be more of "his chin was never really tested, but he was never beat." He would have carried into his legacy the same aura that Marciano carried which is huge. Honestly, would Marciano be in people's top 20 if he had lost (not by DQ either)? Probably not. He beat a lot of HOF fighters but HOF fighters past their primes. I think if Jones would have retired after Ruiz, that mystique would have generated huge buzz. Enough to get him into top 20 lists. But a fighter really can carry on too long. Now... no, he's not top 20. The shield of invincibility has been broken.

Brilliant account.

BUT another thread recently asked if late-career losses affect a fighters' legacy - the majority dont seem to hold Holyfield's late career losses against him for example.....and we cannot have it both ways.......

I dont know what my point is, but I think Jones is being harshly treated here.

"T.M.K"

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 02 Dec 2007, 23:05

His legacy would certainly be better. But fighters that hang on too long are more tragic in their demise.

A baseball player starts to see his average drop or they can't get anyone out like they used to. The football player starts going on injured reserve and the basketball player spends longer time on the bench.

The fighter? He gets beat up,KO'd,starts having trouble putting words together. Roy Jones is like many of the great ones:Ali,Louis,Robinson. They hung around too long,but we still consider them great because we remember how they fought in their primes. Jones's career still isn't done. He hasn't looked good in the last few years so we have a tendency to look at him as perhaps never really being that good.

When we want to see Ali at his best we don't watch his fight with Holmes,nor if we want to see a sharp Louis the Marciano fight is not a barometer. Robinson's last fight with Fullmer? Pretty hard to take even if you're a Fullmer fan.

Let's hope Jones retires soon. Then we can give it some time to look back on his career more objectively.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 02 Dec 2007, 23:53

Ezzard wrote:A highly talented fighter but he just doesn't/didn't have the record to get into my top 50.

I agree 100%...To be at the top 20 of the greatest fighters of all-time, you gotta beat the very best. Jones, Jr., unfortunately, with all the talent in the world, did not took advantage of his great potential by fighting the very best. He spent his boxing career playing basketball and making rap CDs in his second career out of boredom, because according to him, there was no challenges....The challenges were there...He just choose not to take them. 8) 8)

:( :( :(

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 02 Dec 2007, 23:57

Ezzard wrote:
Novelty goat wrote:
Ezzard wrote: Too many fights that didn't happen though. The competition was out there.
He beat Hopkins and Toney easily. He could have fought DM but as much as liked him (DM), I don't think it would have been a competetive fight.
Not the point...

I'd favour him too. I'd favour Jones is rematches with Toney and Hopkins. I'd favour him over Eubank, Benn, DM, McClellan, etc... but the point is he didn't take any of those fights.

Maybe they were not great challenges, according to Jones, Jr. According to me, he was simply scared of them.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 02 Dec 2007, 23:59

Who the fuc'k did Eder Jofre beat that people rank him in the top 10?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 03 Dec 2007, 00:11

Tantum wrote:Who the fuc'k did Eder Jofre beat that people rank him in the top 10?

He beat and fought better fighters than Jones, Jr. did...Plus, I cannot recall someone putting him in the top 10 all-time. He is the greatest bantamweight fighter of all-time by many boxing historians