BBC Post-Haye Fight Attitude Symptomatic of Boxing's Ills

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:30

After the Haye fight this evening, in an incident mentioned on another thread, the BBC radio ringside reporter asked Haye how it felt to be part of the group of seven British World champions. Haye responded by saying, and I’m paraphrasing from memory here, “I’m actually one of three. There are only three real world champions from Britain, Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe and me. There’s only one World, and I’m the cruiserweight champion of it, no matter what any sanctioning body says.”

That’s a great and fair point, but what wasn’t great, or fair, was the response of the BBC commentators, who said it was an insult to the other champions.

I can’t understand that attitude. I understand that Woods, Rees, Maccarinelli et al have worked hard for their titles, but they’re not world champions in the same way that the winner of the confederations cup isn’t the football world champion. Boxing is the only sport that has more than one recognised world champion. How can this be? If one sits for a moment, and thinks of the concept of ‘world champion’ in any sport, the idea that 4, or 2 for that matter, can simultaneously exist is a logical impossibility. And it is absurd that 4 should be recognized and accepted as all being ‘world champions’ by the media.

It does the sport no good, because there is not one single universally recognized champion in any weight division. Any old Enzo can say he’s cruiserweight world champion and be accepted by the press because he has sanctioning body back up, when, in fact, he’s not the world champion cruiserweight at all.

By going against Haye, the BBC are adding to the confusion rather than clarifying, and it’s this attitude, which, I am sad to say, is prevalent among broadcasters, that is bringing the sport down.

If broadcasters stopped covering alphabet sanctioned fights, they would cease to exist, and we’d have one, single, recognizable champ for each division. Instead, they seem keener to tag “world title fight” in front of any old fight and boost the ratings.

Sad, but true.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:35

It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:40

Max Molyneux wrote:It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.

How can it be an insult? Witter knows he ain't the 140lbs world champion. Fair enough, he plays by the rules, works hard, and I was exctatic for him when he got the decision over Corely, but he isn't the world champion light welterweight, and the public should be made aware of that.

The best situation is making a farce of the sport. It would be far easier for the casual fan to get into the sport if there was more clarification as to who was world champion.

BBC should be encouraging that clarification, as ESPN do in the US, rather than perpetuating the current mess.

rod riddle · Post by **rod riddle** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:40

Terry D wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.
We have three Champions and a decent amount of title holders. They are rewriting the definition of a Champion.

I took that as Haye having a a direct swipe at Enzo, though.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:42

Carbo wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.
How can it be an insult? Witter knows he ain't the 140lbs world champion. Fair enough, he plays by the rules, works hard, and I was exctatic for him when he got the decision over Corely, but he isn't the world champion light welterweight, and the public should be made aware of that.

The best situation is making a farce of the sport. It would be far easier for the casual fan to get into the sport if there was more clarification as to who was world champion.

BBC should be encouraging that clarification, as ESPN do in the US, rather than perpetuating the current mess.

He's WBC 140lbs Champion, Witter's worked hard enough to be called a champion. Hatton's the No 1 champion though, I wasn't denying that.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:44

rod riddle wrote:
Terry D wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.
We have three Champions and a decent amount of title holders. They are rewriting the definition of a Champion.
I took that as Haye having a a direct swipe at Enzo, though.

In all fairness he is entitled to after what he just achieved.

Enzo's opposition in 'world class' has been lamentable. Aside from Big Truck he has been in with one decent fighter and 3 who had no business being in the ring contesting a 'world' crown.

Time for Enzo to step up to the plate.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:44

rod riddle wrote:
Terry D wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.
We have three Champions and a decent amount of title holders. They are rewriting the definition of a Champion.
I took that as Haye having a a direct swipe at Enzo, though.

And, judging by the reports of posters on this forum who heard what Maccarinelli had to say during the Setanta build-up, he had every right to.

Hey, the two have a rivalry, and Haye is the World Champion, whereas Maccarinelli isn't. If David wants to use that to jab back at somebody who has slagged him plenty, fair dos.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:47

Terry D wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
Carbo wrote: How can it be an insult? Witter knows he ain't the 140lbs world champion. Fair enough, he plays by the rules, works hard, and I was exctatic for him when he got the decision over Corely, but he isn't the world champion light welterweight, and the public should be made aware of that.

The best situation is making a farce of the sport. It would be far easier for the casual fan to get into the sport if there was more clarification as to who was world champion.

BBC should be encouraging that clarification, as ESPN do in the US, rather than perpetuating the current mess.
He's WBC 140lbs Champion, Witter's worked hard enough to be called a champion. Hatton's the No 1 champion though, I wasn't denying that.
A Champion is the true #1 in his division and there is a history and procession to it, that is why we call them Kings, not serfs.

What?

I did call your fellow Manc the No 1 Champion. Witter Is the WBC 10stone champion.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:48

Max Molyneux wrote:
Carbo wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:It was a bit of Insult considering how hard guys like Witter had to work for his belt. He didn't and doesn't exactly have Haye's popularity.
How can it be an insult? Witter knows he ain't the 140lbs world champion. Fair enough, he plays by the rules, works hard, and I was exctatic for him when he got the decision over Corely, but he isn't the world champion light welterweight, and the public should be made aware of that.

The best situation is making a farce of the sport. It would be far easier for the casual fan to get into the sport if there was more clarification as to who was world champion.

BBC should be encouraging that clarification, as ESPN do in the US, rather than perpetuating the current mess.
He's WBC 140lbs Champion, Witter's worked hard enough to be called a champion. Hatton's the No 1 champion though, I wasn't denying that.

Dear God! "Number one champion". Surely the champion is number 1 and there can be only 1.

Witter is one of many title holders, and happens to hold the title of a sanctioning body more respected than most others.

Witter is a World class fighter, and we should be proud to call the man British, but he is not a World Champion.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:51

He's the WBC's World Champion, therefore he Is a world champion.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:59

we have got a lot of world champs. we've got 3 guys who are beyond doubt the #1. making haye way ahead of enzo.

but you can't fault Witter waiting and waiting his shot and blowing out a guy like Vivian Harris in a quality defense; you have to admire Woods for his pluck and persistence to win a world belt on 4th attempt & beat Johnson on try #3; etc etc. you have to be chuffed for guys like this.

Macca and Rees for e are the more qurestionable champs. I have no doubt Enzo si world class and will be the top mana t cruiser if/when he faces Huck, Adamek, Cunningham...but the opposition, the oppositon...

rod riddle · Post by **rod riddle** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:59

Terry D wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:He's the WBC's World Champion, therefore he Is a world champion.
Not the World Champion at his weight, look at the capitals, they spell it out. We have 3 World Champions.

It looks like Junior Witter thread to me

Albert · Post by **Albert** » 10 Nov 2007, 19:04

Haye's achievement was unbelievably good in my book.

But to say the words he has is insulting to the likes of Junior Witter, Clinton Woods and Enzo Maccarinelli.

Could go into a rant but won't - that victory was outstanding this evening but if Haye said those words it has severly tarnished things.

Carbo · Post by **Carbo** » 10 Nov 2007, 19:28

Autobarn wrote:we have got a lot of world champs. we've got 3 guys who are beyond doubt the #1. making haye way ahead of enzo.

but you can't fault Witter waiting and waiting his shot and blowing out a guy like Vivian Harris in a quality defense; you have to admire Woods for his pluck and persistence to win a world belt on 4th attempt & beat Johnson on try #3; etc etc. you have to be chuffed for guys like this.

Macca and Rees for e are the more qurestionable champs. I have no doubt Enzo si world class and will be the top mana t cruiser if/when he faces Huck, Adamek, Cunningham...but the opposition, the oppositon...

I'm not knocking any of the achievements of Rees, Maccarinelli, Witter or Woods; but they are not World Champions.

They're title holders, sanctioning body champions, whichever way you want to put it.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 10 Nov 2007, 19:36

Albert wrote:Haye's achievement was unbelievably good in my book.

But to say the words he has is insulting to the likes of Junior Witter, Clinton Woods and Enzo Maccarinelli.

Could go into a rant but won't - that victory was outstanding this evening but if Haye said those words it has severly tarnished things.

I think Haye meant it as a swipe in Fwank and Enzo's direction.

And fair play to him after the amount of PURE SHIT they have been coming out with for the past 18 months or so.

Haye's win tonight is BETTER, yes BETTER than Calzaghes win last week in my eyes.
Yet the daily rags won't blow it up or hype, and he certainly won't get a mention in the BBC sports personality either!

Still, who needs that when you are UNDISPUTED cruiserweight world champion.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Nov 2007, 19:59

Carbo wrote:
Autobarn wrote:we have got a lot of world champs. we've got 3 guys who are beyond doubt the #1. making haye way ahead of enzo.

but you can't fault Witter waiting and waiting his shot and blowing out a guy like Vivian Harris in a quality defense; you have to admire Woods for his pluck and persistence to win a world belt on 4th attempt & beat Johnson on try #3; etc etc. you have to be chuffed for guys like this.

Macca and Rees for e are the more qurestionable champs. I have no doubt Enzo si world class and will be the top mana t cruiser if/when he faces Huck, Adamek, Cunningham...but the opposition, the oppositon...
I'm not knocking any of the achievements of Rees, Maccarinelli, Witter or Woods; but they are not World Champions.

They're title holders, sanctioning body champions, whichever way you want to put it.

they are champs; it's the reality. the reality is there are more than 1 champ per division. its part of the game. what we can say is there's no fog around haye, calzaghe and hatton's claim to the title

I'm sure you could make a case that Joe Calzaghe wasn't champ before he beat Lacy. Yet he went on to dominate Mikkel Kessler (who brought WBA/WBC belts which I'm sure you would recognise) for half a fight...

Albert · Post by **Albert** » 10 Nov 2007, 20:40

Asolutely - of course Haye's win was FANTASTIC - but do not disrespect other worthy world champions in the process.

I like David Haye a lot - think tonight he proved one hell of a lot of people wrong - but with that said the words in that interview have tarnished things a tadge.

Loynesy · Post by **Loynesy** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:24

Last weekend, I saw Enzo, from ringside, knock out a guy that had no business being in the same ring as him.

This afternoon (New York time), I saw David Haye, via a dodgy internet stream, knockout the undoubted number one in the division.

I fail to see how Enzo, who I agree is a lovely fella, has a leg to stand on in that debate.

Albert · Post by **Albert** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:32

Loynesy wrote:Last weekend, I saw Enzo, from ringside, knock out a guy that had no business being in the same ring as him.

This afternoon (New York time), I saw David Haye, via a dodgy internet stream, knockout the undoubted number one in the division.

I fail to see how Enzo, who I agree is a lovely fella, has a leg to stand on in that debate.

See your point - I will emphasise mine by stating have a pop at the promoter not the fighter in this case!!!

Can't beleive I am sticking up for Maccaroni!!!

STP · Post by **STP** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:36

Witter deserves credit, he went the proper route - British, Commonwealth, European, WBC #1.

WBC for me is still the most prestige. The one.

fatton · Post by **fatton** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:36

Carbo wrote:
Autobarn wrote:we have got a lot of world champs. we've got 3 guys who are beyond doubt the #1. making haye way ahead of enzo.

but you can't fault Witter waiting and waiting his shot and blowing out a guy like Vivian Harris in a quality defense; you have to admire Woods for his pluck and persistence to win a world belt on 4th attempt & beat Johnson on try #3; etc etc. you have to be chuffed for guys like this.

Macca and Rees for e are the more qurestionable champs. I have no doubt Enzo si world class and will be the top mana t cruiser if/when he faces Huck, Adamek, Cunningham...but the opposition, the oppositon...
I'm not knocking any of the achievements of Rees, Maccarinelli, Witter or Woods; but they are not World Champions.

They're title holders, sanctioning body champions, whichever way you want to put it.

Spot on only Hatton, Calzaghe and now Haye have proven that they are the best in the division. Witter, Maccaranelli and Woods are all clearly in the top 5 of their weight classes but "title holders" is indeed the best description for them.

STP · Post by **STP** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:37

fatton wrote:
Carbo wrote:
Autobarn wrote:we have got a lot of world champs. we've got 3 guys who are beyond doubt the #1. making haye way ahead of enzo.

but you can't fault Witter waiting and waiting his shot and blowing out a guy like Vivian Harris in a quality defense; you have to admire Woods for his pluck and persistence to win a world belt on 4th attempt & beat Johnson on try #3; etc etc. you have to be chuffed for guys like this.

Macca and Rees for e are the more qurestionable champs. I have no doubt Enzo si world class and will be the top mana t cruiser if/when he faces Huck, Adamek, Cunningham...but the opposition, the oppositon...
I'm not knocking any of the achievements of Rees, Maccarinelli, Witter or Woods; but they are not World Champions.

They're title holders, sanctioning body champions, whichever way you want to put it.
Spot on only Hatton, Calzaghe and now Haye have proven that they are the best in the division.

How?

Hatton and Calzaghe have avoided the toughest challenges in Witter and Froch. And Enzo may be able to beat David - who knows?

Loynesy · Post by **Loynesy** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:40

How has Calzaghe avoided Froch? They are miles apart.

I can at least see an argument over Hatton v Witter, but the Froch one is nonsensical.

fatton · Post by **fatton** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:43

STP wrote:
fatton wrote:
Carbo wrote: I'm not knocking any of the achievements of Rees, Maccarinelli, Witter or Woods; but they are not World Champions.

They're title holders, sanctioning body champions, whichever way you want to put it.
Spot on only Hatton, Calzaghe and now Haye have proven that they are the best in the division.
How?

Hatton and Calzaghe have avoided the toughest challenges in Witter and Froch. And Enzo may be able to beat David - who knows?

They have proven their the best by beating the best in their respective divisions. Hatton beat Tsyzu, Calzaghe beat Lacy and Kessler and Haye's beaten Mormeck.

Hatton's avoided Witter and gone for Mayweather instead, Calzaghe ducked Froch and went for Kessler and Haye ran so far away from Enzo that he ended up beating Mormeck in Paris.

Witters beaten some worthy challengers, so has Woods and Enzo has beaten one worthy challenger but none of them has fought and beaten "the man" in their division like the other 3 have.

STP · Post by **STP** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:52

If Ricky loses to Mayweather (which he won't, by the way) quite convincingly then his legacy goes down the drain until he meets and beats Witter and/or Cotto.

There are no excuses for a Maussa, Collazo and Urango every seven or eight months when he could have been fighting Witter and Cotto. There never will be.