Firstly, great performance by Haye last night and a class act in the interview afterwards - makes a mockery of Enzo's recent defence and proves that he walks the walk as well as talk the talk.
But... I'm sure I'm not alone in being concerned about Haye's low left and porous defence.
He's undoubtedly going to create waves at heavy thanks to his big 'equaliser', but going in the with bigger boys he simply can't afford to adopt the same laissez-faire attitude to defence. The bottom line is that he's not as talented as he believes he is when it comes to slipping shots - Mormeck's not exactly the fastest of individuals yet he was tagging Haye with alarming ease at several points in the fight.
Haye's lucky that the heavyweight division is so weak at the moment, but I think that unfortunately he's destined for a spectacular but short career as while he's going to score some impressive KOs at heavy, he's also going to get levelled because of his openess. The likes of Povetkin and Vlad would make him pay dearly for his sloppiness and while anyone he hits he's going to hurt, this isn't going to be enough to ensure career longevity.
Haye at Heavy - the outcome?
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Raff The Frenchman
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 10 Feb 2002, 20:00
I think maybe we're missing the point.
Vs a tall opponent, Haye's low left gives him extra speed on the jab. Helps him beat guys to the punch.
Vs a short opponent, like Frago or Mormeck, they roll in, time a right over his low left as he backs away from constant pressure.
It's different with different sizes and styles. Mormeck caught him when he was drained with limited legs and the Frenchman CAN be a very solid hitter.
I can see Haye getting into trouble with a compact, come forward guy like Chagaev. But I can also see him surprising a lot of big guys with his speed & dynamic punch. Bonin's not great, but the Pole was in shock at the punches that came his way.
Haye can now work his way to a heavyweight title shot. Good man. Get a title, offer Macca a fight on HAYE'S TERMS and smoke his boots!
Vs a tall opponent, Haye's low left gives him extra speed on the jab. Helps him beat guys to the punch.
Vs a short opponent, like Frago or Mormeck, they roll in, time a right over his low left as he backs away from constant pressure.
It's different with different sizes and styles. Mormeck caught him when he was drained with limited legs and the Frenchman CAN be a very solid hitter.
I can see Haye getting into trouble with a compact, come forward guy like Chagaev. But I can also see him surprising a lot of big guys with his speed & dynamic punch. Bonin's not great, but the Pole was in shock at the punches that came his way.
Haye can now work his way to a heavyweight title shot. Good man. Get a title, offer Macca a fight on HAYE'S TERMS and smoke his boots!
Nobody's missing the point as I'd seen your posts on other threads regarding this.Autobarn wrote:I think maybe we're missing the point.
Vs a tall opponent, Haye's low left gives him extra speed on the jab. Helps him beat guys to the punch.
Vs a short opponent, like Frago or Mormeck, they roll in, time a right over his low left as he backs away from constant pressure.
It's different with different sizes and styles. Mormeck caught him when he was drained with limited legs and the Frenchman CAN be a very solid hitter.
I can see Haye getting into trouble with a compact, come forward guy like Chagaev. But I can also see him surprising a lot of big guys with his speed & dynamic punch. Bonin's not great, but the Pole was in shock at the punches that came his way.
Haye can now work his way to a heavyweight title shot. Good man. Get a title, offer Macca a fight on HAYE'S TERMS and smoke his boots!
We'll just have to agree to disagree as while I accept it can work for Haye on occasion, the short and stocky Mormeck was still able to tag him at long range, not just up close, and furthermore he keeps the left hand low even when he's backed up against the ropes and instead relies on slipping shots.. and the reality is that he's not even a Chris Byrd in that department, let alone an Ali, so it's a tactic that's potentially suicidal at heavyweight in my opinion.
If he lands first, you're right, he's got the power to shake anyone to their boots, but he's not slick enough to maintain that type of defence at the top level. I'm exaggerating for effect, but he'll run the risk of becoming Herbie Hide 2.0...
yawn
who should he fight then? I think he should fight 1 or 2 durable types, so he can prove he can go 12 rds as a heavy
then fight a puncher, one who maybe has a glass jaw.
Haye needs to really get ppl talking about him as a heavyweight. His route to the top must have learnig fights, AND spectacular displays. He's now the elite cruiser; I reckon he wins a heavyweight belt.
He's not planning to be the next Ali or anything. He's said he wanted to win the cruiser title while his body could still handle it, work his way up to a heavyweight title, win a belt & just retire by about 30. He's already winnign a lot of fans along the way so the vulnerabilities are part of the exciting package.
Yes, he got dropped by Mormeck, but you can tell he doesn't like fighting down to those small squat guys, not if he 's fighting at a lower poundage like that. I think we need to see him at his ideal weight to really know how things will happen. Already he's done way more than Herbie. If he did fail at heavy, he can always say he was The Man at cruiser.
who should he fight then? I think he should fight 1 or 2 durable types, so he can prove he can go 12 rds as a heavy
then fight a puncher, one who maybe has a glass jaw.
Haye needs to really get ppl talking about him as a heavyweight. His route to the top must have learnig fights, AND spectacular displays. He's now the elite cruiser; I reckon he wins a heavyweight belt.
He's not planning to be the next Ali or anything. He's said he wanted to win the cruiser title while his body could still handle it, work his way up to a heavyweight title, win a belt & just retire by about 30. He's already winnign a lot of fans along the way so the vulnerabilities are part of the exciting package.
Yes, he got dropped by Mormeck, but you can tell he doesn't like fighting down to those small squat guys, not if he 's fighting at a lower poundage like that. I think we need to see him at his ideal weight to really know how things will happen. Already he's done way more than Herbie. If he did fail at heavy, he can always say he was The Man at cruiser.
Last edited by Autobarn on 11 Nov 2007, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
Autobarn wrote:was just thinking up my next riposte
Fair enough.I feel obliged to point out that I'm a big Haye fan and I'm only stressing this point because I'm desperate for him to iron out what I believe to be a major flaw. If he addresses this now I can see him campaigning successfully at heavyweight for some time. If he doesn't I can still see him claiming a belt because of his strengths, but just can't see him enjoying any sort of longevity.
yeah, I;m just optimistic that it won't be an issue, and that it won't be as noticable. Chagaev though would be on him like glueDeserter wrote:Autobarn wrote:was just thinking up my next riposte
I feel obliged to point out that I'm a big Haye fan and I'm only stressing this point because I'm desperate for him to iron out what I believe to be a major flaw. If he addresses this now I can see him campaigning successfully at heavyweight for some time. If he doesn't I can still see him claiming a belt because of his strengths, but just can't see him enjoying any sort of longevity.
I was pretty dissapointed in Mormeck last night, taking nothing away from Haye - Mormeck's stamina and finishing skills were pretty poor. Of course, I am going to credit Haye for landing blows that made Mormeck tire quicker - no doubt that, but will Haye have the physical strength to do that vs a David Tua or Hasim Rahman type?
I was alarmed at how little effect Haye's punches were having on Mormeck, at the early stages - before the body shots took over. Will the body shots have an effect on a big guy like Tua or Rahman.
Yes, I could see what Haye was saying regarding "no legs" - but I not sure if having legs at the weight will make that much difference when its a 17/18 stoner punching you and not a 14 stone guy.
I was alarmed at how little effect Haye's punches were having on Mormeck, at the early stages - before the body shots took over. Will the body shots have an effect on a big guy like Tua or Rahman.
Yes, I could see what Haye was saying regarding "no legs" - but I not sure if having legs at the weight will make that much difference when its a 17/18 stoner punching you and not a 14 stone guy.
I think the main thing was to break Mormeck's body bit by bit. Hard to land a clean head shot v a crouching foe. Mormeck was just too small and too old. He's a muscled up light heavy whereas Haye is a heavyweight moving down. Too much difference in the end.
Have to say it's very positive to see Hayemaker come through a crisis again to win. He's come a long way since Thompson.
Haye must go to heavy now, IMO
Have to say it's very positive to see Hayemaker come through a crisis again to win. He's come a long way since Thompson.
Haye must go to heavy now, IMO
Re: Haye at Heavy - the outcome?
could not agree more mate, hayes career at heavy will be short and explosive, he will have a punchers chance of levelling any heavyweight in the world, but equally i expect him to taste canvas too. i presume david will be campaigning at about 15st 8 or something similar. obvious questions as to whether that is big enough in the current climate, but why substitute speed for oxygen sapping heavy muscle. haye needs to go for the jugular again and assault the heavyweight title the same way as he did with the cruisers.Deserter wrote:Firstly, great performance by Haye last night and a class act in the interview afterwards - makes a mockery of Enzo's recent defence and proves that he walks the walk as well as talk the talk.
But... I'm sure I'm not alone in being concerned about Haye's low left and porous defence.
He's undoubtedly going to create waves at heavy thanks to his big 'equaliser', but going in the with bigger boys he simply can't afford to adopt the same laissez-faire attitude to defence. The bottom line is that he's not as talented as he believes he is when it comes to slipping shots - Mormeck's not exactly the fastest of individuals yet he was tagging Haye with alarming ease at several points in the fight.
Haye's lucky that the heavyweight division is so weak at the moment, but I think that unfortunately he's destined for a spectacular but short career as while he's going to score some impressive KOs at heavy, he's also going to get levelled because of his openess. The likes of Povetkin and Vlad would make him pay dearly for his sloppiness and while anyone he hits he's going to hurt, this isn't going to be enough to ensure career longevity.
I'd favour him to beat either, but Skelton would be a great first fight at heavy in terms of this new campaign (as opposed to the Bonin 'toe in the water'). Would be interesting to see how Haye dealt with Skelton's uneducated pressure.leforge wrote:Haye should fight Williams or Skelton next. Haye will beat 95% of heavyweights with no problem. He went down got up and won.
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Raff The Frenchman
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 497
- Joined: 10 Feb 2002, 20:00
he went down and got up against a small CW who has never been a good finisher...if he went down from a power punching HW, he wouldnt get upDeserter wrote:I'd favour him to beat either, but Skelton would be a great first fight at heavy in terms of this new campaign (as opposed to the Bonin 'toe in the water'). Would be interesting to see how Haye dealt with Skelton's uneducated pressure.leforge wrote:Haye should fight Williams or Skelton next. Haye will beat 95% of heavyweights with no problem. He went down got up and won.
It would be foolish to say outright that if Haye can be dropped by a Crusier and get up, he would not get up if dropped by a heavy...
Clearly, Haye can be hurt but I know for a fact, dropping a severe amount of weight as he does can severly lower punch resistance...
Granted David will have many of challenges to face, and new questions to be asked when he campaings full-time at Heavy... However,I believe not being weakened at Heavy will enable him to get up if floored...
He has a very bright future at Heavy in my opinion.
Clearly, Haye can be hurt but I know for a fact, dropping a severe amount of weight as he does can severly lower punch resistance...
Granted David will have many of challenges to face, and new questions to be asked when he campaings full-time at Heavy... However,I believe not being weakened at Heavy will enable him to get up if floored...
He has a very bright future at Heavy in my opinion.
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Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7084
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
