Frank Bruno in the 21st century

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 14 Nov 2007, 18:31

E wrote: Maybe you can't remember Coetzee admitting he just came over for the holiday with his wife and kids.

Because you made it up, it never happened, and you cannot cite any source for this as its false. Go back to the tapes.

E wrote: And you seem to forget that Brewster, Bostice, Barrett, Jefferson and Brock et al were in their prime.

These guys had 'primes'? WHat was Barrets prime? Beating 40 yr old ex-champs Page & Spoon then losing to Mount Whitaker and Wlad? Bostice having no wins of any merit, Jefferson, who did he beat? I remember Izon and Maskaev both knocking him out before Wlad did.

E wrote: BEst victims for Wlad were Peter, BYrd (better than ANy Bruno victims) and fought a far higher level of top ten opposition.

Better than Bruno victims? Oliver McCall beat L-E-N-N-O-X L-E-W-I-S. Remind me who Byrd and Peter beat? the 40 yr old Holyfield or the 40 yr old Toney?

E wrote: Bruno was big, with a good punch, but chinny and lacking stamina with very average boxing skills.

See Ross Puritty v Wlad Klitschko, or Steve Pannell or DaVarryl Williamson putting Wlad on the deck, or him crawling around the ring on all fours v Brewster, or fat 38 yr old part time boxer Sanders knocking Wlad down 5 times, crude swinging Sam Peter decking Wlad 3 times....

E · Post by E » 14 Nov 2007, 20:02

Wlad could be beaten by Bruno no doubt. But as a bookies, I would put it at 4-1.

IE Bruno would win 20% of time no more.

Bruno's 'skills' were terrible. Wlad is so much more talented and actually no 1 undisputed at mo. Wlad has the same weaknesses as Bruno, but with better strengths.

Bruno is a UK media creation.

I am more than happy to put this to poll.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 15 Nov 2007, 04:51

The fact that you've made up stuff and don't respond to my above comments speaks volumes.

Calling Wlad undisputed no 1 is pointless until we see whether Chagaev or the others make him crawl around the ring like a dog as Brewster did.

If WLad had been competiting in Brunos era v Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, Moorer, Foreman, Morrison, Mercer, McCall, Ruddock, he'd of never been heard of.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 15 Nov 2007, 06:08

FACT is, anyone who managed to reach Wlads chin with a half decent punch had him Ko'd or on the deck.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 15 Nov 2007, 07:27

I don't think Bruno would ever beat Mike Tyson - He would never be mentally positive enough where ever or when ever he might have fought him.

Bruno was a good fighter, but his career best performance resulted in a stoppage loss to Lewis.

Yeah he beat McCall, but the McCall that showed up that night was a strange one to say the least - And I would argue with any fan who said that wasn't a strange performance from McCall.

He certainly had the tools to beat the likes of Ruiz, Byrd and Wlad - but I think people like Peter, Holyfield and Tua would beat him.

Bruno's biggest problem, was that he would fall apart when tagged - Early, late it made no difference.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 15 Nov 2007, 08:05

I wouldn't pick Bruno to beat Tyson and Evander l;ke he did, a lot of it was mental (if not all) v Tyson.....he lost before he left the dressing room.

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » 15 Nov 2007, 08:09

Wlad is lucky he's around now, whoever wrote that was correct.

In with even B-rate former 80s/90s heavies like Ruddock and Mercer he'd have ben flattened.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 15 Nov 2007, 08:37

Exactly.

Take any top 90s heavy and he would be top of our current pile of feces.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 15 Nov 2007, 10:59

http://boxingwriter.wordpress.com/2007/ ... g-romance/

Its all about timing.

Bruno wouldn't have been given a shot versus Klitschko had we discussed two or three years after his retirement when the image of a post peak Tyson scaring him to the canvas was still fresh.

But now 10 years on, nostalgic romanticism kicks in, as it always does, and he now joins the more historical figures who we build up to be supermen in comparison with modern contemporaries. Despite the fact they'd been beaten by half a dozen to 20 other men.

I don't comment that its right or wrong. But it seems every fighter goes through this process of support, rejection and then elevation to a much grander plane.

In his career Lewis was mocked, undermined and maligned. In retirement he was criticised for not rematching VK, now 3-4 years on he's slowly getting the respect. Same with Larry Hpolmes.

J · Post by J » 15 Nov 2007, 11:42

but equally so David I think most would find it hard to argue the heavyweights of Lewis and Bruno's era were of a higher standard than the present bunch, ergo the belt holders if you like would have stood a much better chance of turning into dominant champions in todays climate of the big men.

n'est pas?

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 15 Nov 2007, 11:55

But I'm asking, were they.

Ok take out Lewis, Bowe and Hoyfield - because we're agreeing they were stand out fighters. So in a sense, they don't form part of the debate, and Bruno by way of exemplar, wouldn't have beaten any of them.

Would the likes of Morrison, Bruno, Moorer, Ruddock, Mercer really have been dominant now?

I'm not so sure.

I'm an advocate of believing bygone champions were tougher, more durable, just plain hard fkkers because of the frequency of competition and the nature of the sport the less pampered ring rules they operated under. But comparing fighters of this decade, with say the eighties or nineties, aside from the three I mention and maybe Tyson, and an ageing Holmes. The rest form a bland body of men.

Whichever decade you plump for.

Is Ruddock better than say McCline? True Ruddock went plenty of rounds with Tyson, but how 'on it' was Tyson and how many rounds did Ruddock win - the next big test, he was flattened in a round.

Is heavyweight Moorer a better fighter at heavyweight than say Chris Byrd?

Is the 1990's Tommy Morrison better than Lamon Brewster?

Would we assume Tucker beats Chagaev?

I think we add to the abilities of bygone fighters sometimes. I think.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 15 Nov 2007, 12:38

Good argument, Dave.

However I consider the 90s heavyweights to be among the strongest of any decade bar the 70s.

I know what you mean about revisionist theory, because at the time people were decrying the 90s heavyweights but, for example, nobody is saying the alphabet soup champs on the mid 80s would stand supreme today, and even they were arguably slightly better than today's crop.

Bruno is not a 90s stand-out, but I think he would have done better today than in the 90s, as would Ruddock, Morrison, Mercer, etc.

J · Post by J » 15 Nov 2007, 12:40

well the fact that mcall is top 10 still today is endictment enough on the depth of talent of todays heavies.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 15 Nov 2007, 13:00

In who's list is McCall top 10?

J · Post by J » 15 Nov 2007, 13:08

well he was til he lost to Gomez. beating Sam would have put him in there on most folks list Id have thought.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 15 Nov 2007, 15:18

He had 200k to fight Sam Peter at MSG or 400k to go germany and fight JC Gomez.

Personally i'd of taken the short money and looked at long term gain. McCalls shot is GONE now.

Sooo close. You think of a guy like McCline putting Peter on the deck thrice and.... hey ho. Oliver you idiot.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 16 Nov 2007, 03:56

When your 43, $400k is a lot of money.

Personally, I would think McCall remains one win from a shot. Andrew Golota is evidence enough of that.

DP

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 16 Nov 2007, 05:23

DavidPayne wrote:When your 43, $400k is a lot of money.

Personally, I would think McCall remains one win from a shot. Andrew Golota is evidence enough of that.

DP

True, although according to BN, McCall himself said he was going to step down his level of competition.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 16 Nov 2007, 06:00

No Ollie, he said he wouldn't be facing fighters with Gomez like movement at his age.

In other words, give me guys who will stand in front of me and fight.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 16 Nov 2007, 06:28

DavidPayne wrote:No Ollie, he said he wouldn't be facing fighters with Gomez like movement at his age.

In other words, give me guys who will stand in front of me and fight.

Let's have McCall v Tua, then

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 16 Nov 2007, 06:49

I'm surprised Warren hasn't imported McCall to face Skelton to be honest.

He's an easy sell to the British public, and would advance Skelton's standing if he could beat him.

Of course, its an investment in a flawed product with a short future but if he had ANY apirations for Skelton, he'd be ideal.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 16 Nov 2007, 11:47

It's not romanticism . . .anyone with two eyes and a brain can see the HW division has gotten much worse in the last 10 years.

Morrison and Ruddock were very flawed fighters, but Brewster, Peter, McCline etc. have much bigger flaws.

Example: Both Ruddock and Peter had decent chins, very good power, and questionable skills.

Big edge to Ruddock, b/c he actually had the speed/timing to land his big punches on decent opponents, and actually showed up to fights in shape (Peter's best KO win remains over a 34 year old Jeremy Williams)
McCline? When did Ruddock ever lose to the likes of Calvin Brock and Zuri Lawrence?

Mercer, Morrison, Tua, Ruddock were just the supporting cast to Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson

I see all of those fighters in their primes knocking out Klitschko, who is recognized as the top guy now.

As for Klitschko-Bruno, I wouldn't count out a Wlad decision victory as described. However, I do think Bruno gives him major troubles with his jab (when has Wlad beat another fighter with a strong jab? and please don't say a 60 yr old Mercer) and that there's a strong possibility he catches Wlad with hook similar to what he staggered Lennox with, and Wlad's ability to take punishment is far lesser.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 16 Nov 2007, 13:03

E wrote:
overhand_right wrote:'Cloud judgement'? This from a guy calling McCall a journeyman, Coetzee 'uninspired & untrained' (wtf?) and Coetzer 'past it' (3 entire months after his world title eliminator v Bowe)

Yet Brewster (beaten by Etienne & Shufford), Bostice, Barrett, Jefferson and Brock et al are wheeled out as 'superior wins'? eh??? If THESE GUYS are yours big wins then shit the bed we have to throw back Carl The Truth Williams, Quick Tillis, Jose Ribalta, Jesse Ferguson, Phil Brown, Joe Bugner, Jumbo Cummings et al, most of whom have CVs that shat all over the likes of Derek Jefferson and his motely crew.

I love your line about Wlads win over Mercer, who was "never stopped before inc by Lewis and Holy".... Thats like saying 'holy crap!! Larry Holmes stopped Muhammad Ali!! He must punch harder than Foreman or Shavers!!'

Go back to Eastside!!!
Maybe you can't remember Coetzee admitting he just came over for the holiday with his wife and kids.

And you seem to forget that Brewster, Bostice, Barrett, Jefferson and Brock et al were in their prime.

BEsides these ar enot his best wins, just good wins.

BEst victims for Wlad were Peter, BYrd (better than ANy Bruno victims) and fought a far higher level of top ten opposition.

Bruno was big, with a good punch, but chinny and lacking stamina with very average boxing skills.

Wlad has superb boxing skills, big power, handspeed. Yes he's also chinny, but overall is by far the superior fighter.

McCall will probably go down in boxing history far above Byrd and Peter. McCall KO'd 1 of the greatest HWs of all time in Lennox Lewis. Beat another great champ in Larry Holmes and KO'd belt holders like Maskeev, Seldon and Akiwande

Brewster was shot, he had just lost to average Lykovich about 18months before and dint fight after that (correct me if I'm wrong), had retina damage, probably lost against Meehan aswell and was never great in the first place.

The following were all pretty average gatekeepers: Bostice, Barrett, Jefferson and Brock