Fighters Whose Careers Were Affected By A Ring Death

[dagosd2000]

Sometimes when a fighter kills a man in the ring he gets through it OK. Sometimes he doesn't. I know Sugar Ramos was never the same fighter after the death of Davey Moore. He was in and out of therapy.

After Luther McCarty's unfortunate death in a fight with Arthur Pelkey,Pelkey never won another fight. He was KO'd 12 times and died a broken man 7 years later in 1921. How about some other examples.

[m1kee50]

Gabriel Ruelas is another one....

[Robinson]

I think ultimately every fight, say a few homicidal animals, would be affected in some way. After taking a man's life in the ring, it makes you wonder how many times fighters ignored that 'kill' switch inside of there head and let an opponent of the hook when they had there man trapped.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Well I heard that Rocky Marciano had a couple chances to finish off LaStarza in that first fight but was reluctant cause he had recently killed another fighter, but soon managed to get over it after the pressure of having nearly lost that fight.

Ray Mancini at first didn't seem to be affected too much fighting-wise by Kim's death but I imagine it really got to him as his sponsers started drifting away and much of the boxing fanbase and networks became hostile with him, along with Kim's mom and the ref dying and Livingstone Brable calling him a murderer amongst others.

Of course there's Max Baer too who complained of recurring nightmares about those two guys he killed and helped kill (with some assistance from Carnera of course).

Jesus Chavez recently seemed like he'd be fine after the death of Leavander Johnson, but he didn't fight for a long time and suffered numerous injuries culminating in screwing up his knee in the third round of the Julio Diaz fight where he looked kinda sluggish, I'm sure a lot of that time off was due to the memory along with his own body becoming a bit inconsistent.

I imagine for anybody that causes the death of another fighter in the ring it has to be pretty traumatic, for some more than others of course, but it seems like most aren't the same afterwards even if it seems like they're close to it, it surely doesn't seem like anything any of them would like to experience more than once if they can help it.

[dagosd2000]

Since some of you guys are going the other way with this:no affect,I'd like to mention Ray Robinson. When asked when he thought he had Jimmy Doyle in trouble,he responded,"when he signed the contract" Sick comment.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Since some of you guys are going the other way with this:no affect,I'd like to mention Ray Robinson. When asked when he thought he had Jimmy Doyle in trouble,he responded,"when he signed the contract" Sick comment.

I imagine it bothers any fighter it happens to to a degree, I imagine Ray didn't really want to have to deal with it so he indulged in some dark humor.

[dagosd2000]

Since some of you guys are going the other way with this:no affect,I'd like to mention Ray Robinson. When asked when he thought he had Jimmy Doyle in trouble,he responded,"when he signed the contract" Sick comment.

I imagine it bothers any fighter it happens to to a degree, I imagine Ray didn't really want to have to deal with it so he indulged in some dark humor.

I understand what you're saying,but he should have thought before he opened his mouth. Doyle was a nice kid who had little chance of beating Robinson. From what I read in the papers it ended suddenly-a terrific left hook.

If Ray didn't want to deal with it,he could have gone about it a different way. Doyle had a mother. Was she supposed to feel Ray's pain after that remark?

[Diamond WEAPON]

Since some of you guys are going the other way with this:no affect,I'd like to mention Ray Robinson. When asked when he thought he had Jimmy Doyle in trouble,he responded,"when he signed the contract" Sick comment.

I imagine it bothers any fighter it happens to to a degree, I imagine Ray didn't really want to have to deal with it so he indulged in some dark humor.

I understand what you're saying,but he should have thought before he opened his mouth. Doyle was a nice kid who had little chance of beating Robinson. From what I read in the papers it ended suddenly-a terrific left hook.

If Ray didn't want to deal with it,he could have gone about it a different way. Doyle had a mother. Was she supposed to feel Ray's pain after that remark?

True, I was just saying he was probably affected too.

[Jaclem]

..ezzard charles is the one most mentioned when this topic comes up. he had a bad time after killing sam baroudi. he was very religious and his pastor was one who convinced him not to retire, along with a psychiatrist, but the one who had the most influence was baroudi's father, who told him it was an accident and part of boxing. still, he was never really the same.

marciano never killed anyone in the ring, but the fight referred to here is no doubt the one in which he almost killed carmine vingo, who recovered but never fought again.

middleweight georgie small actually had a breakdown and never recovered from depression after killing his friend, the promising laverne roach in the ring.

roach had been named "rookie of the year" byt nat fleischer in ring magazine, and was rushed into a fight with marcel cerdan who gave him a bad bad beating, which may have affected him in the georgie small fight. fleishcher felt so bad i think he dropped the "rookie of the year" title in his annual ratings, saying it caused the so named fighter to be rushed, and changed it to "fighter who showed the most progress."

[Diamond WEAPON]

Of course there's Max Baer too who complained of recurring nightmares about those two guys he killed and helped kill (with some assistance from Carnera of course).

Carnera and Baer didn't cause Schaaf to get killed in the ring; Shaaf did. People like to think that ring deaths are caused by one sickening punch. They aren't. Schaaf took punishment in each of his 70-something fights. He never quit; he was never knocked out until that final jab from Carnera. And that was after 12+ rounds of combat.

True, I meant more that they were the finishers of what had already started. I'm sure Nigel Benn still feels bad regardless of the fact that Gerald McClellan had already shown signs of ring damage before their fight (constant migraine, nausea, etc.).

[dr_devious]

Not a ring death, but I always thought that Chris Eubank was never the same after putting Michael Watson in a coma in their second fight. He was always quite hesitant after that, and let several opponents off the hook when he had them in trouble. It definitely affected him badly outside the ring as well

[Syntax Error]

Chris Eubank - never the same after the 2nd Watson fight (OK, not a death, but a serious injury to Watson).

His reluctance to finish his opponents off cost him a probable victory in the first Carl Thompson fight.

[Controversial]

Joe Bugner supposedly held back a lot on his punches after Ulric Regis died after fighting him....how true that is I don't know?

[Minotauro]

Emile Griffth said he would always hold back after the Paret fight. And as mentioned before the Ezzard Charles was never the same after the death of Baroudi.

[dagosd2000]

I want to say something about sports announcers that are broadcasting an event where an athlete is seriously hurt. I've watched football games and boxing matches where a man is on the ground or on the mat and you can tell he's hurt bad.

They always make the worse case scenario comment. It's almost as scary as the injury. They put in your mind the worst is going to happen. "he's not moving his legs","his neck snapped back","he hasn't opened his eyes",etc. We can see that.

After all the replays we're all gasped out. There's something in men that gets him off on blood sports. Hey I'm a big fan of both sports.

But I'll always remember the night Griffith killed Paret. It was on television. The ref(I think it was Ruby Goldstein)was late stepping in,Paret's body was draped over the ropes,his eyes rolled back. It was horrible to see. But I'll never forget what Don Dunphy said.

"Don't worry Mrs. Paret,Benny will be all right." At that moment that was the right thing to say even though we know what happend. He was thinking of Paret's family. He didn't want to sensationalize matters even more. Dunphy put the concerns of Paret's family ahead of our thirst for gore.

I remember after that fight there was a movement to ban boxing. It always comes up after a death in the ring. I remember after Jerry Quarry died. He was punchy,fighting had taken a heavy toll on this tough Irishman. Someone asked his wife if boxing should be banned. Her reply:

"As long as there are men,there will always be boxing". Hemingway couldn't have said it better.

[Jaclem]

..dagosd...excellent post. i remember the paret/griffith one clearly...the referee was goldstein...and he was a little too far from the action ....when a guy is on the ropes the ref should be close enough to step in quickly...and he froze for just a couple of seconds too. ruby never refereed again. over the years he had been one of the best referees in the business, but in this one he faltered badly, with tragic results.

.and dunphy was one of the best announcers ever...and i agree..he made a good choice in the way he handled this one.

[enrique]

Benny Paret was the biggest responsable for Paret's death.

I was very close to Jose Caron Gonzalez, an excellent trainer who was in Paret's corner for several years. When Paret fought a draw with Federico Thompson he complained to Caron about ocassional blurred or double vision and sharp headaches. Caron went to Manuel Alfaro -BP manager- and suggested that Benny retire. Alfaro answered that all fighters get headaches.

Caron then went back to Benny and tried to convince him to retire but Benny answered that now that he was making good money he could not consider retirement.

Caron then quit as Paret's trainer and was replaced by Maceo. Benny went on, took a huge beating from Gene Fullmer and died at Griffith's hands.

The signs were there. Most, including the fighter, refused to heed the warning.

[dagosd2000]

Benny Paret was the biggest responsable for Paret's death.

I was very close to Jose Caron Gonzalez, an excellent trainer who was in Paret's corner for several years. When Paret fought a draw with Federico Thompson he complained to Caron about ocassional blurred or double vision and sharp headaches. Caron went to Manuel Alfaro -BP manager- and suggested that Benny retire. Alfaro answered that all fighters get headaches.

Caron then went back to Benny and tried to convince him to retire but Benny answered that now that he was making good money he could not consider retirement.

Caron then quit as Paret's trainer and was replaced by Maceo. Benny went on, took a huge beating from Gene Fullmer and died at Griffith's hands.

The signs were there. Most, including the fighter, refused to heed the warning.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this info about his trainers

[Maxie's Gal]

Of course there's Max Baer too who complained of recurring nightmares about those two guys he killed and helped kill (with some assistance from Carnera of course).

Carnera and Baer didn't cause Schaaf to get killed in the ring; Shaaf did. People like to think that ring deaths are caused by one sickening punch. They aren't. Schaaf took punishment in each of his 70-something fights. He never quit; he was never knocked out until that final jab from Carnera. And that was after 12+ rounds of combat.

True, I meant more that they were the finishers of what had already started. I'm sure Nigel Benn still feels bad regardless of the fact that Gerald McClellan had already shown signs of ring damage before their fight (constant migraine, nausea, etc.).

Here's the coroner's report of the cause of Schaaf's death. The Carnera-Schaaf bout was on Feb 10, 1933 and Ernie died on Feb 14th.

"02.20.1933 – p9
San Antonio Light
FLU IMMFLAMATION AIDED PRIMO BLOW
New York – Ernie Schaaf, Boston heavyweight, was suffering from inflammation of the brain when he entered the ring at Madison Square Garden Feb. 10, for his ill-fated match with Primo Camera, Dr. Charles Norris, chief medical examiner for New York City, announced today. Schaaf died in Polyclinic Hospital here Tuesday following an operation to relieve pressure on the brain.

The medical examiner's report, made on the basis of a microscopic examination of the brain, said that Schaaf s general condition interfered with his boxing skill so that he was less able to avoid blows. While declining to state definitely, Dr. Norris and his assistant. Dr. Benjamin Morgan Vance, said the inflammation of the brain from which Schaaf was suffering probably was due to a recent attack of influenza. "In addition," the report continued, "blows not in themselves dangerous, aggravated the meningo-encephalitis (Inflammation) with the result that edema (swelling) of the brain, cerebral compression and paralysis of the left side of the body developed."

The report definitely establishes the cause of death and clarifies conflicting statements by medical authorities on the day or the Boston fighter's death. Dr. Norris had said at that time that death was due to "natural causes”, and that there was no evidence to show he had died as a result of Carnera's blows.

Schaaf was knocked out by a left jab to the nose in the 13th round of the 15-round match. Other authorities had said that Schaaf's injuries were the direct result of blows he suffered during the bout. The final report combined the two viewpoints, revealing a brain ailment ante-dating the bout, but aggravated by the blows Schaaf suffered at Carnera's hands."

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However, claims that after his knockout by Max Baer, almost 6 months earlier, was a direct result of 1 loss in his 3 bouts after Baer and before the Carnera fight are false. Read the account of Schaaf's Jan 06, 1933 bout with Stanley Poreda, [includes facts in brackets] who at the time was listed directly behind Schmeling and Baer as the next possible candidate for a chance at Sharkey's title.
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"01.07.1933 – p8
Syracuse Herald
SCHAAF EVENS FISTIC SCORE WITH POREDA
New York – AP – Ernie Schaaf has evened another old score and now can find only one stain on his fistic escutcheon. The burly Boston heavyweight, apparently sliding clear out of the picture a few months ago [reports indicate Schaaf discovered the bright lights of NYC and was dating an heiress, which accounts for his 'lull'], advanced another big step in his comeback campaign last night when he stopped Stanley Poreda, youthful Jersey City puncher, in the sixth round of a 10 round bout in MSG. Schaaf floored Poreda four times before Referee Arthur Donovan halted hostilities after 28 seconds of the sixth.

It was Poreda who started Schaaf on his slump early this summer. [there was no slump, after Poreda 1 and before Baer II, he beat Ruggirello, Uzcudun and Sandwina and won the New England HW title]. After Stanley had given him a beating in 10 rounds, the Boston star was trounced by Max Baer and then beaten by Unknown Winston. Only the Baer defeat now remains unavenged for Schaaf recently knocked out Winston in six rounds. After the first round, Poreda never had a chance. Early in the second rounds Schaaf caught him flush on the chin with a smashing right and Poreda went down. Instead, of taking a count of nine, the groggy Poreda came up at four, took a fearful lacing and went down once more, just as the bell rang. Stanley got through the third round with a minimum of difficulty, but two solid rights to the head sent him down for nine in the fourth round. Through the fifth round Schaaf belabored his opponent lustily and then floored him with a savage right cross early in the sixth round. That was the final punch for the referee stepped in and halted the uneven struggle. Schaaf weighed 209 1/4 & pounds; Poreda, 203.
"

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Additionally, between Feb 10 to Feb 14 and beyond, while sports writers, doctors, and people who had watched earlier Schaaf bouts all stated their opinion as to what really killed Schaaf, NOT A ONE HAD ACCESS TO SCHAAF'S MEDICAL RECORDS. Their comments were based purely on conjecture, speculation and an ax to grind.


Regards,
Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

[Jaclem]

..maxie's gal...very informative. I've got a film of some of the rounds of the carnera/schaaf fight, including the knockout, of course, and i will dig it out again because as i recall it i..though i haven't seen it for years..carnera was landing with more than a few of his punches..before the so-called "light left jab". maybe i can add my observations here if they're worthwhile.

[HomicideHenry]

From what I understand old Vingo is still partially paralyzed, least that is what Peter Marciano said in a documentary I seen on Marciano. But who knows, I think the documentary was made a few years back and Vingo might be dead now.

Mancini wasn't quite the same guy either, after killing that Korean in the 14th round(?)...which ironically brought to an end the 15 round scheduled championship fights.

Bob Fitzsimmons killed a man in the ring once, but it never seemed to have phased him one iota, as he later became the Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight champion of the world.

[Maxie's Gal]

..maxie's gal...very informative. I've got a film of some of the rounds of the carnera/schaaf fight, including the knockout, of course, and i will dig it out again because as i recall it i..though i haven't seen it for years..carnera was landing with more than a few of his punches..before the so-called "light left jab". maybe i can add my observations here if they're worthwhile.

Thanks ! I'd be interested what you think, I don't have the fight, only the sports writers descriptions. Here's one by David J. Walsh of INS that says it all:

"There was a sharp crack as the punch landed, but the blow, all told, was pretty unimpressive. It had enough on it, at that, to push Schaaf's mouthpiece half-way down his throat. Moreover, the effect was astounding. Schaaf staggered back toward the ropes and for a split second, stood tottering and uncertain. Then suddenly he collapses to a sitting position, his feet straight out in front of him and his right arm clutching the lower ropes…For two seconds, that is, Schaaf seemed hurt but in fair shape. Then things began to happen to him. His eyes glazed, his head begin to droop strangely. Then, slowly, at six, the eyes crossed. At seven his head and body began slumping toward his outstretched legs. At 10, he was doubled up like a dish cloth. So they came out and got him and dragged him to the corners, thence to the dressing room and finally the hospital. "

Per the description of the bout, Schaaf pretty much stopped fighting by the third round and dropped his arms. Carnera literally had free shots with little interference for ten rounds. After the bout, the uproar was so fierce that the Governor and state legislature announced it had enough votes to strike down the Walker Law, which allowed legal boxing in NY State. The State Athletic Commission stated it would not allow Carnera to fight Sharkey for the title. The SAC and MSG said they would confine "Super Dreadnaught" boxers to their own weights in future matches. After some glad handing and bribery by MSG and its investors, the Legislature backed down and within a few weeks the SAC and MSG assured the public that the title match with Sharkey-Carnera.

I recently came across an Italian Periodical issued right after the bout that has 16 photos of fight highlights, including the end. It should be in the mail to me this week and I'll post them either here or as a private page viewing thingee on my site if they too are worthwhile.

Regards,
Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

[HomicideHenry]

I know people go on and on about the speculation of the Schaaf fight, but in my opinion, the fight that really affected Baer was the Cambel bout. Rarely did people see the Max Baer of 'old' after that bout, because before then Baer was as viscous as any of the ATG bruisers and brawlers, if not more so. After that he was the perpetual clown, or stunk up the joint, like he done against Schaaf, which from what I understand was so boring the crowd was restless and booed, until Baer put on the flash.

Only until he fought Carnera and Schmeling did we see that side of him again, but even then, he would pull back on his punches [after beating the living hell out of Schmeling, Baer told the referee to call it before he killed him].

If you want to truly see the bad ass side of Max Baer, where he literally didn't give a damn about his opponent one iota after the Camble fight, watch his sloppy, wildly entertaining blood bath against Tony Galento. I think Baer afterwards was quoted as saying "I wish they hadn't of stopped the fight, I would have loved to have smashed him."

[enrique]

I believe that the death of Con Couglin at the hands of Fitzimmons was caused by alcohol intoxication on the part of the deceased. Read the Fighting Blacksmith, one of the best bio pieces on Fitz.

[Maxie's Gal]

I know people go on and on about the speculation of the Schaaf fight, but in my opinion, the fight that really affected Baer was the Cambel bout. Rarely did people see the Max Baer of 'old' after that bout, because before then Baer was as viscous as any of the ATG bruisers and brawlers, if not more so. After that he was the perpetual clown, or stunk up the joint, like he done against Schaaf, which from what I understand was so boring the crowd was restless and booed, until Baer put on the flash.

Only until he fought Carnera and Schmeling did we see that side of him again, but even then, he would pull back on his punches [after beating the living hell out of Schmeling, Baer told the referee to call it before he killed him].

If you want to truly see the bad ass side of Max Baer, where he literally didn't give a damn about his opponent one iota after the Camble fight, watch his sloppy, wildly entertaining blood bath against Tony Galento. I think Baer afterwards was quoted as saying "I wish they hadn't of stopped the fight, I would have loved to have smashed him."

I cover Baer-before and Baer-after Campbell, the Schaaf fights, and Carnera and Schmeling at my site. In Schaaf II, the referee instructed the fighters to become "a little more warlike" as boos escalated. It was in the last 2 rounds that Baer turned ferocious and face planted Schaaf, but received a TKO and not a KO on his record, because the bell rang during the count.

Here's what I discovered, below, about the times leading up to and during the Baer-Galeno bout in 1940. The quote by Baer after Galeno is at the end. Another interesting note about post Baer-Galento, is the interview conducted by Lou Costello with Max and Joe Louis, who was at ringside. Costello asked Joe if he'd fight Baer again and Joe said that "while we're great friends I would fight him."

In July of 1939, "Two Ton" Tony Galento made a surprise showing in his bout with Joe Louis at Yankee Stadium. Galento, who fought from a very low crouch managed to feint his way into a position that allowed him to launch left hooks and right crosses at Louis. Word from Louis' training camp prior to the bout was that his trainers were "trying to change his style to meet Galento's barroom tactics" which was deemed a mistake. Louis was staggered in round one and Galento was dropped in the 2nd round (for the first time in his career). Louis was knocked down in the 3rd round, but in the 4th round managed to club Tony "to a bloody pulp, his face so badly mangled that 23 stitches were required to sew it together again, his body beaten to helpless submission, his brain fogged and his legs paralyzed."

When Louis again declared he needed a rest, the heavyweight deck of cards was again shuffled to produce match ups that would entice the public's attendance. Galento met with Lou Nova on September 15, 1939 in "one of the most disgraceful fights staged since the days of the barroom brawls." Perhaps because of Tony's questionable tactics in winning the bout, it was decided he needed one more tune-up fight before again being afforded the chance to face Joe Louis for the title. Galento agreed to a match with Max Baer. The two vocal foes gleefully hurled insults at each other through the press for weeks prior to the bout.

On July 2nd, 1940, they touched gloves in what came to be called "The Battle of the Bums". The press was not enthused, and reported that "two tired, fat old fighting men slugged each other into a state of utter exhaustion out on the Jersey marshes last night, and finally one of them, Tony Galento, was unable to go on any longer." The two fighters and the referee apparently tossed out the Marquis of Queensbury rules altogether. Backhanding, elbows, thumbs and head butts were common. Ray Arcel, ringman for Max Baer, said that while Max was a good-natured clown who never disliked anyone, "he hated Galento with a vengeance. He really wanted to kill him. In the ring, the two of them were cursing so much, people in the cheap seats could hear the most vile obscenities." Max later said "I'm sorry they stopped the fight. Every time I hit him and the blood squooshed out it was music to my ears. That's one guy I hate and I'd like to have flattened him."

Regards,
Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org