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HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 17 Nov 2007, 17:30

Can you really make an argument against Sugar Ray Robinson?

We always see Robinson listed as "the greatest fighter p4p", or as "the greatest welterweight of all time", or as "the greatest fighter of the last 80 years", and the like. But we rarely see an argument against him.

Really, the only thing I can think of is that the Middleweight Robinson wasn't the near perfect Welterweight Robinson, and that after 1954 Robinson was a bit more inconsistent.

Also, outside of those middleweights who did beat him, what middleweight or welterweight before or since him, could have beaten a prime Robinson in either division?

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 17 Nov 2007, 21:19

Most of the film on Robinson is after he came out of retirement after two years. He had had a lot of fights and now was a permanent middle weight. I remember his fight with Ralph Tiger Jones. It was like Ali's comeback fight with Bonavena.

Ray's legs were betraying him. Those spindly legs of his is what got him into position to punch,slip punches.manoever an opponent around the ring,work hard and fast for 15 rounds,let him dictate how he wanted to fight.

When he lost that step he started to get hit more often. He was on the defense a lot. I remember the Jones fight and I think it was Russ Hodges the announcer saying that he never saw Robinson lying against the ropes so much having a man take it to him like that. It only got worse as time went on.

His KO of Fullmer was remarkable,his two fights with Basilio were epics,he handled Olsen with no problem. This was a guy who depended on his legs to be there to showcase his talent.

The middleweight title fight with LaMotta is probably the last good look at him in his prime. He works LaMotta to gas himself out,ties him up,jabs,hooks,right hands to the head and body,counter left hooks to head and body,combinations. And when we look at this it's textbook. He gets everything into his jab,the right hand is thrown with perfect leverage and then (with those spindly legs)resets himself to work some more.

Age caught up with him and he really looked miserable at the end of his career.

As far as anyone at a comparable weight beating him in his prime,I don't think so. Leonard said he couldn't. Joe Louis and Ali say he was the greatest fighter pound for pound who ever lived. Pretty good authorities. Carmen Basilio says Pep was better,but Carmen hated Ray's guts. It's kind of funny to hear Basilio in his old age still talk about his dislike for Robinson. That old paisan is still a tough son of a bitch.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 17 Nov 2007, 21:27

Well, if we're talking in a pound-for-pound sense, there are plenty of fighters who would beat him, but the difference with other great fighters is to beat Robinson, looking at him & the things he does, they would have to be at their best, or they simply don't get it done. But there are many legends who could have beaten him. LaMotta did it once, & he's nowhere close to being the best fighter of all-time. He's a deserving great, but there have certainly been better.

Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Ray Leonard
Benny Leonard
Harry Greb

Those names came without any real effort. There are plenty of others. Many will spurn my next statement I'm sure, but I honestly think as Heavyweights, Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali, pound-for-pound, would even have an (relatively long) outside shot to beat Robinson. For all the arguments against his chin & footspeed, when you combine blinding handspeed with one-punch knockout power, you throw every punch just as the textbook dictates, & you are perhaps the greatest combination puncher in any weightclass ever, you have a shot against any man, including Robinson. You also happen to be one of the most proficient finishers ever to lace up the gloves. & can you imagine Ali as a Welterweight? Think about the speed, & then add in an iron jaw, competitor's heart, first-class ring savvy & all the other great attributes Ali possessed, & you start to think he's in with something of a chance as well, given enough fights against Robinson.

The thing of it is, it's purely a numbers game. You can't have a sport well over 120 years old, with such a wide variety of fighters over time, & have one man who stands absolutely firmly above all others to the point where --- on his best night at least --- he's considered literally unbeatable, for all intents & purposes.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 17 Nov 2007, 23:10

Certainly he's never going to beat Robinson at Welterweight. But in a p4p sense, I give him a reasonable shot. Might take a few fights for him to get it done, but I don't think it's out of the question. That said, I seem to think more of Whitaker than a lot of people, generally speaking.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 17 Nov 2007, 23:15

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Well, if we're talking in a pound-for-pound sense, there are plenty of fighters who would beat him, but the difference with other great fighters is to beat Robinson, looking at him & the things he does, they would have to be at their best, or they simply don't get it done. But there are many legends who could have beaten him. LaMotta did it once, & he's nowhere close to being the best fighter of all-time. He's a deserving great, but there have certainly been better.

Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Ray Leonard
Benny Leonard
Harry Greb

Those names came without any real effort. There are plenty of others. Many will spurn my next statement I'm sure, but I honestly think as Heavyweights, Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali, pound-for-pound, would even have an (relatively long) outside shot to beat Robinson. For all the arguments against his chin & footspeed, when you combine blinding handspeed with one-punch knockout power, you throw every punch just as the textbook dictates, & you are perhaps the greatest combination puncher in any weightclass ever, you have a shot against any man, including Robinson. You also happen to be one of the most proficient finishers ever to lace up the gloves. & can you imagine Ali as a Welterweight? Think about the speed, & then add in an iron jaw, competitor's heart, first-class ring savvy & all the other great attributes Ali possessed, & you start to think he's in with something of a chance as well, given enough fights against Robinson.

The thing of it is, it's purely a numbers game. You can't have a sport well over 120 years old, with such a wide variety of fighters over time, & have one man who stands absolutely firmly above all others to the point where --- on his best night at least --- he's considered literally unbeatable, for all intents & purposes.

I've only been on this forum a few months. I'm having a good time.But sometimes I crack up when I see posts that split hairs about the "flaws' of fighters like Ali,Louis,and Robinson. Or someone flat out saying they're overrated,would get their asses kicked by this guy or that guy,or are just plain bums.

There are scores of other greats that get these same kind of criticisms. Joe louis said the best he ever felt in the ring was against Baer. If you look at that fight,Baer landed a few on Joe. Fighters don't become legands by fighting "cakewalks". What does Tyson's victory over Seldon prove? Not much if you want to build a legend.

I've worked out in boxing gyms and hung around various fighters. If I said Ray Robinson was the best P4P,or asked that question 9 out of 10 would say Ray Robinson.

It would be like going to Cooperstown and splitting hairs about Babe Ruth. He didn't run fast enough. I don't think baseball players have too much to say in a negative way about him. If you said he was the greatest baseball player even if someone disagreed it wouldn't be worth an argument.

If you can't say Ray Robinson was the greatest P4P,I'm sure your choice would get a heck of a lot more flak than Sugar Ray Robinson.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 17 Nov 2007, 23:19

I wasn't criticising Louis' chin though. I was just making the point that people often do.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 18 Nov 2007, 00:16

I don't want to get off the subject,but maybe Robinson's great talent as a fighter was off set by his flaws as a husband,father,keeping his word,arrogance,and coldness. You can really knock him out in these areas.