Jim Braddock vs Max Schmeling

[HomicideHenry]

What if Braddock chose to fight Schmeling, like originally planned, rather than face the Brown Bomber? I know Braddock did it mainly for money reasons, taking the Louis fight, but had he taken on Max...what would have happened?

Personally, though I like Braddock, I don't think he would have beaten Schmeling, but I do think it would have been a competitive and close decision win for Schmeling.

The only draw back, in my mind, had this fight had happened, is that if Schmeling had won it, the title would have went and stayed in Germany. No American would have gotten a chance at the title, and nobody of color would have gotten a shot either. Hitler would have proclaimed that the Bavarian race was the superior race, and that Schmeling was living proof that Germany was greater than America.

Thoughts?

[Friedie]

I go with Max by a late K.o or clear point descision. And then he probably would have made one or two defences before retiring. In his autobiographie Max wrote, that his dream was to win the title a second time and then retire as undefeated Champion like Gene Tunney did.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Conventional wisdom tells me Schmeling wins this. However, the conventional wisdom told everyone Baer would win, & if that fight never happened, we would all be sitting here now, telling one another that Baer would have retired Braddock in devastating fashion, so...maybe?

But, they don't call them upsets for nothing. They are the exception, & Schmeling was a dedicated man, unlike Baer. Schmeling by late stoppage.

[donnellon]

Hitler wasn't into international sports? And you know your era!

[HomicideHenry]

You forgot how Jesse Owens won the gold in front of Hitler

Neways...I know Schmeling wasn't a Nazi, but he was pictured with Hitler after his victory over Joe Louis, and the Nazi party tried to have Schmeling sign an official paper that boxing had a race problem, that Negroes were inferior, and it wasn't that Schmeling beat Louis cus of a technical flaw but because Louis wasn't white and German. Schmeling, to my knowledge, didn't sign it.

But nonetheless, had Schmeling won the world title again, I believe Hitler would have sprang into action on it, because boxing was then the sport of men, and only the manliest of men, the most superior boxer is the champion. It would have been used as propaganda, a publicity stunt, that Germany's champion would have been used as 'proof' that Hitler's theory of a master race was correct.

Sounds logical to me, I guess it doesn't for Decagon.

[Friedie]

I agree with Decagon.

The big money was not to win against fellow Germans or even Europeans at home in Germany and the big american opponents would not have come there in 1937 and later I guess. Max Schmeling would have continued his career in America or retired. Another argument here: His Manager Joe Jacobs was a jew. The Nazis already wanted Schmeling to break ties with him in 1936 but Max refused to do this (He went to Hitler in person and told him, that he want to keep Jacobs as his Manager).

[Maxie's Gal]

What if Braddock chose to fight Schmeling, like originally planned, rather than face the Brown Bomber? I know Braddock did it mainly for money reasons, taking the Louis fight...

I found an interesting issue about the "money reasons" part of who Braddock would fight in his first title defense. On p. 101 of Patrick Myler's "Ring of Hate" about the two Louis-Schmeling bouts, he writes:

"Joe Gould [Jim's manager] knew that Braddock, approaching thirty-two, was too slow and too stale (he hadn't fought since taking the title from Max Baer two years earlier) to last many rounds with the young, destructive Brown Bomber. Therefore, the champion would have to be well compensated for handing the title over on a platter.

"All we want is fifty percent of Louis," Gould informed an incredulous John Roxborough. "We'll let you keep half."

"No fifty percent, no fifty cents, nothing," snapped Louis' manager. he was aware that Gould had links with underworld figures like Pete Stone, known as Pete the Goat, and Owney Madden. Even when Gould dropped his demand to 25 percent, then 20, Roxborough held firm. Braddock's manager decided to put the squeeze on Mike Jacobs [head of 20th Century Sporting Club, competitor to MSG and who had recently signed a 3 year contract with Joe Louis] instead.

Jacobs understood that if he wanted to wrest control of heavyweight boxing away from Jimmy Johnston, the powerful matchmaker for MSG, he would have to play ball with Gould and Braddock. He said he would guarantee them $500,000, or half the gate and radio revenues, whichever was the greater figure for the fight. On top of that, he made an extraordinary offer. He was prepared to concede 10 percent of all his net profits from heavyweight title promotions for the next ten years. The deal was done.

Contrary to popular belief, it was not Louis who had to surrender 10 percent of his purses to Braddock for the decade after he became champion. The agreement was that the decuctions came from the promoter's gate receipts. As it happened, Jacobs eventually got fed up with the seemingly never-ending dept and stopped paying the money. He was taken to court and managed to persuade his tormentors to accept a financial settlement."


What I discovered after researching the time frame while all this was going on, was the following, which I've posted on my site:

"...Max Baer watched ringside as Joe Louis took the Heavyweight title from James J. Braddock. More importantly, along the path of his "comeback" trail, in early December 1937, Max signed with the 20th Century Sporting Club promoter "Uncle" Mike Jacobs to engage in a bout at the Garden on March 11, 1938. His opponent would be the winner of a January 11th, 1938 match between Tommy Farr and Jim Braddock. The winner of the March bout "has been given some assurance of meeting the victor of the June Louis-Schmeling title bout."

When Braddock decisioned Farr on points, Braddock's manager Joe Gould surprised everyone by announcing Jim would not fight Max. "A fight with that guy would be just a step backward right now." After Mike Jacobs stated that "it has always been understood that the winner of the Braddock-Farr bout would fight Max Baer" and sports writer Al Warden said "this writer cast his optics" at the contract, Gould later toned the statement down, saying "We'll be willing to fight Baer if the terms are right."

At the end of January, as Max was about to board a train East to begin training for the bout, Braddock abruptly announced his retirement, claiming his wife Mae was too emotionally wrought at the idea of Jim stepping into the ring again.

It's worse than a soap opera, eh ?

Regards,
Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

[HomicideHenry]

I always heard the real reason as to why Braddock retired was because he started to develope arthritis and was getting rather old, and the Farr fight (though he won) was too close for comfort, so Braddock knew he wouldn't be able to take on the Baer's, Louis's, Carnera's, etc.

[Maxie's Gal]

I always heard the real reason as to why Braddock retired was because he started to develope arthritis and was getting rather old, and the Farr fight (though he won) was too close for comfort, so Braddock knew he wouldn't be able to take on the Baer's, Louis's, Carnera's, etc.

Nope, got this stuff word for word straight out of the sports columns over a 6 month period when I was surprised to discover how close, and how high up, Max had climbed to become between the #1 and #3 contender for the title in 1937-38. It was Lou Nova that blew his chances, but Nova even said in later years that it practically killed him to win against Max in both of their bouts.

I asked a group of guys on CBZ who they thought won Farr-Braddock and it was unanimous for Farr, that Braddock got a pity vote. You know damn well Baer would've trained his ass off for a Baer-Braddock II. No clownin' around the second time ! Remember too, how shocked people were when Farr gave Louis such a run for his money in their bout in 1937. Louis didn't knock Farr down in that bout he won it on UD. But when Baer had his rematch with Farr, right after Farr lost to Braddock, Max knocked Tommy down twice, in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, to win the rematch. That win over Tommy helped get Max back into top contention.

Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

[donnellon]

HITLER ATTENDED ALLMOST ALL OF THE '36 GAMES. HOWEVER HE KEPT A LOW ENEOUGH PROFILE AS AT THE TIME HE WAS COURTING INTERNATIONAL FLAVOUR. GERMANY DID QUITE WELL AT THE GAMES AND I FEEL THAT IF MAX SCHMELING WAS GOING GOOD HITLER WOULD HAVE PLAYED THAT CARD TOO. HOWEVER ITS REALLY A MATTER OF SPECULATION.

[dempseyfire]

I always heard the real reason as to why Braddock retired was because he started to develope arthritis and was getting rather old, and the Farr fight (though he won) was too close for comfort, so Braddock knew he wouldn't be able to take on the Baer's, Louis's, Carnera's, etc.

Nope, got this stuff word for word straight out of the sports columns over a 6 month period when I was surprised to discover how close, and how high up, Max had climbed to become between the #1 and #3 contender for the title in 1937-38. It was Lou Nova that blew his chances, but Nova even said in later years that it practically killed him to win against Max in both of their bouts.



Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

That's probably right. The two Baer-Nova fights (esp. the first) were BRUTAL fights, and despite Nova winning both I think those fights took a lot out of him as far as his career was concerned.

[Maxie's Gal]

I always heard the real reason as to why Braddock retired was because he started to develope arthritis and was getting rather old, and the Farr fight (though he won) was too close for comfort, so Braddock knew he wouldn't be able to take on the Baer's, Louis's, Carnera's, etc.

Nope, got this stuff word for word straight out of the sports columns over a 6 month period when I was surprised to discover how close, and how high up, Max had climbed to become between the #1 and #3 contender for the title in 1937-38. It was Lou Nova that blew his chances, but Nova even said in later years that it practically killed him to win against Max in both of their bouts.

Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

That's probably right. The two Baer-Nova fights (esp. the first) were BRUTAL fights, and despite Nova winning both I think those fights took a lot out of him as far as his career was concerned.

Here's what I wrote about Baer-Nova I and II based on my research:


Baer-Nova I:
Several labeled Nova the winner, sight unseen, saying Max was through. Max's former nemesis, Jimmy Braddock trained Nova for the fight, giving him the inside scoop on Max. The crowd witnessed a blood fest. "From the start, last night's fight was a rip-tearing, brutal exhibition that kept the spectators on their feet. There was no feeling out. They went right to it, slugging and grunting and scowling, hitting on the breaks and after the bell." In the 2nd and 6th rounds, Max rocked Lou with a "series of overhand and right hand haymakers that so staggered Nova he started toward a neutral corner until Jim Braddock called him to his corner." In the 3rd round, Lou opened up a cut on Baer's lip so severe he was either spitting or choking on blood for the rest of the fight. At the end of 10 rounds the Associated Press score sheet gave Nova 6 rounds and Max 4. The referee finally stopped the fight in the 11th round, stating that Baer was having trouble breathing through all the blood.

Baer-Nova II:
Max touched gloves for the second time with Lou Nova on April 4, 1941. Lou Nova beat him to a pulp. Though Max begged the referee to continue the bout, in the 8th round, his face and body almost unrecognizable, the fight was stopped for fear of his safety. While many in the press called him "ancient" and "washed up" at age 32, sportswriter Harry Cohn called him a man "who conceals a simple soul, a sensitive nature and an inferiority complex beneath the mask of a clown." and sportswriter Joe Williams gave Max a nice send off. "The most talented and aromatic ham the prize ring has ever known closed out his Broadway career with a masterful performance before a packed and admiring house last night in Madison Square Garden. The fact that Max Baer was stopped in 8 rounds by a younger and better conditioned Lou Nova is secondary to the finished show the hilarious Hamlet put on. It ran the range from low comedy to high drama." "As if realizing the crowd had gathered mainly to see him in his Paeon to big time Pugilism, the magnificent screwball surpassed himself in his efforts to paint an unforgettable picture of the theater that is peculiarly his own." "Baer may be 32 years old and a little tired from keeping the lights burning along the gay white way, but when he winds up with that right he still can punch." As Nova's hand was raised in victory on a TKO in the 8th, Max strolled over to his corner and "in a few minutes he was kneeling on the apron of the ring chatting brightly with the men in press row." HIs dream of regaining the title now in tatters, Max Baer officially retired from the ring.


Regards,
Cat
http://www.maxbaer.org

[Robinson]

I think Schmelling is the better skilled guy and is by far more consistent. Schmelling who himself could be hot and cold at times has the talent to outpoint Braddock, who doesn't have the power to hurt or break Schmelling's game.

Braddock has a romantic nostalgia about him more so than ever these days, but outside of his Baer win and his early amateur career, he was in many ways a Jesse Fergusson type. Good against the lower ranks, falling short with the top ten men. Though he was always good for an upset.

Though having said that Fergusson is a less succesful Braddock like fighter. Though by far less succesful and less 'classical'.

Kym

[HomicideHenry]

Schmeling is quite the under-rated fighter these days, only mentioned, it seems, when it comes to Joe Louis. Ironic, as that's how Frazier is viewed alot of the time as if he was a stepping stone for Ali, when Frazier was easily one of the better Heavyweights of all time.

I believe when I done the "Ali vs The Greats" thread, I had it being a close (but unaminous) decision win for Ali over Schmeling. He was simply, so far, the greatest European HW of all time, least in my opinion.

As far as Jim Braddock is concerned, I think he was more capable, if not better, than most give him credit for. He often took fights on short notice (after the Loughran fight), most times injured, and poured out one of the worst win/loss ratios for many years. Not to make excuses, but had it been another time and circumstance, I think Braddock might have beaten those very same men who beat him.

Had he fought today, I would favor him as a Cruiserweight, as he was good enough as a Light Heavyweight to get a title shot, and good enough as a Heavyweight to always stay in the mix and pull off upsets over guys he probably shouldn't. He also had good longetivity (least for those times), especially with the constant injuries that plagued him for many years. Maybe being in the Depression also affected his nutrition, which is most necessary for a fighter, who knows.


All we really know is that Braddock was a game fighter, ducked nobody (that is if you do not count Schmeling) and had a helluva lot of heart and desire and was one determined SOB when he wanted to be. Skill wise, it was good enough even as an older man to beat John Henry Lewis and Art Lasky, which isn't something to really hiss at, as Lewis is a HOF fighter.