Fighters Given Too Much Credit For One Big Win

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Nov 2007, 13:02

To put it as inoffensively as possible, just picture a particular fighter's legacy if you subtract his biggest win. Doesn't make any of these guys bums, and it doesn't mean they didn't have any other good wins. It just means they've gotten too much credit for what they did in one big fight. Examples.

Sean O'Grady. For his one sided decision over Hilmer Kenty
Rubin Carter. For his 1st round KO of Emile Griffith
Randy Turpin. For his upset of Sugar Ray Robinson
Max Schmeling. For his KO of Joe Louis
Joe Frazier. For his win over Muhammad Ali

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 19 Nov 2007, 16:37

I think Frazier is considered a legend for more than just his win over Ali.
However his trilogy is very key in how he is remembered.

Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, Foster, Machen (past his best), Mathis, Quarry are all good wins.

Kym

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 19 Nov 2007, 19:38

Robinson wrote:I think Frazier is considered a legend for more than just his win over Ali.
However his trilogy is very key in how he is remembered.

Ellis, Bonavena, Bugner, Foster, Machen (past his best), Mathis, Quarry are all good wins.

Kym

good but not as great as his one win over ali

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 19 Nov 2007, 20:05

What the hells your point? This thread is retarded. 'Lets remove a key win from a fighters record'.

WHY?

Dont know what went down in some parallel universe, but round here Smokin Joe whupped The Greatest bad in 71 and theres no fookin logical reason other than someone having too much time on their hands to pretend 'what if' it didnt happen.

Getting 'too much credit' for beating the greatest fighter of all time? Christ almighty, this is the most pointless thread of all time.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 19 Nov 2007, 20:14

True....but what a great Win over Ali it was.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Nov 2007, 20:24

overhand right......you may be on to something.

I was almost tempted to mention Braddock over Baer....but then I realized that he coached another to do just what he did. And come to think of it Joe helped Kenny Norton pull off what he pulled off. I thought about mentioning Liston over Patterson but he did it twice so that can't be applicable. And as I kept thinking about it I couldnt think of a single example of a win that should be "tossed out". A win is a win is a win.

And just to show that I am in earnest agreement with brother overhand, I will include in this statement Aarron Pryor over Alexis Arguello which was repetitive AND those pesky wins that Ezzard Charles had over Archie Moore. They ALL matter and they all helped to define each fighters legacy. They were NOT easy things to accomplish and should be respected. I doubt many of us could have accomplished such things....and if we did I'm guessing we would be pretty annoyed if someone suggested they be "removed from our resume".

Now I still think that Aaron was not all that many think he was, and I think Archie SHOULD have done better against Ezz than he did. But that, my friends, is an entirely different kettle of fish for which there remains reasonable room for debate.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Nov 2007, 20:30

Funny no one's taken exception to me mentioning Randy Turpin. His win over Sugar Robinson was bigger than Frazier's over Ali, and he easily had as many good other wins as Frazier.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Nov 2007, 22:43

Seamus wrote:Funny no one's taken exception to me mentioning Randy Turpin. His win over Sugar Robinson was bigger than Frazier's over Ali, and he easily had as many good other wins as Frazier.

Well that's because Robinson is a diety and if you even speak such blasphemy you can be tried as a criminal in the current scene as well as 17 countries around the world.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Nov 2007, 23:45

overhand_right wrote:What the hells your point? This thread is retarded. 'Lets remove a key win from a fighters record'.

WHY?

Dont know what went down in some parallel universe, but round here Smokin Joe whupped The Greatest bad in 71 and theres no fookin logical reason other than someone having too much time on their hands to pretend 'what if' it didnt happen.

Getting 'too much credit' for beating the greatest fighter of all time? Christ almighty, this is the most pointless thread of all time.

In which universe did Frazier, "whup Ali badly?" That wasn't just the closest fight of the trilogy, it was an extremely close fight. I had it for Frazier by two (Even on my card going into the last, though at that time momentum was easily with Frazier).

Regardless, Frazier never badly beat Ali.

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Nov 2007, 03:08

I use to have Calzaghe on this list, but no longer...he has proven himself to me.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 20 Nov 2007, 05:41

Seamus wrote:To put it as inoffensively as possible, just picture a particular fighter's legacy if you subtract his biggest win. Doesn't make any of these guys bums, and it doesn't mean they didn't have any other good wins. It just means they've gotten too much credit for what they did in one big fight. Examples.

Sean O'Grady. For his one sided decision over Hilmer Kenty
Rubin Carter. For his 1st round KO of Emile Griffith
Randy Turpin. For his upset of Sugar Ray Robinson
Max Schmeling. For his KO of Joe Louis
Joe Frazier. For his win over Muhammad Ali

Carter is a definite and stands above the others.

I actually think that Frazier and Schmeling don't get enough praise for their wins.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 20 Nov 2007, 06:36

Buster Douglas... we might not credit him that much but alot of people around the world know he is the guy that knocked mike tyson off

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 20 Nov 2007, 07:15

fighters given to much credit for a LOSS Henry Cooper vs Ali the myth about the glove and the 2 minute break anf if there hadnt been a two minute break he wouldve bin fighting sonny liston and maybe won when in the real world he was getting beaten by ali there was no two minute break and liston wouldve flogged him so badly

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Nov 2007, 19:04

given too much credit for a loss....hands down....Vitali Klitschko...hell...people named him champion of the world on his loss to Lewis!!!

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 20 Nov 2007, 20:26

barry wrote:given too much credit for a loss....hands down....Vitali Klitschko...hell...people named him champion of the world on his loss to Lewis!!!

that is the main reason for my admitted hate for the klitchko's

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 21 Nov 2007, 03:00

I find in reading most boxing media of the last 5 or so years all one encounters is praise for each Kilitschko and how they are the saviours of the HW division. Yet in each subsequent fight, however good or bad, they just have not stepped up and proven the 'hype' instead they hide amidst the politics and media and deny any greatness that they apparently have the potential to lead.

Kym

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 24 Nov 2007, 11:46

great posts on this subject and its possible irrelevance.

by the way "goodnight irene" your name - as you must know - is taken from an old blues/folk song. do you have an interest in this musical form?

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 24 Nov 2007, 16:25

BoxBuzz wrote:
Seamus wrote:Funny no one's taken exception to me mentioning Randy Turpin. His win over Sugar Robinson was bigger than Frazier's over Ali, and he easily had as many good other wins as Frazier.
Well that's because Robinson is a diety and if you even speak such blasphemy you can be tried as a criminal in the current scene as well as 17 countries around the world.

Some people say Robinson didn't take Turpin seriously and that he had broken training while in Europe. Truth is Turpin matched up well with Robinson. Turpin had a strong big upper body. Fighters with those kinds of builds gave Robinson trouble(LaMotta,Fullmer) and in a way psyched Robinson out a little. Robinson always said Turpin had a body like a heavyweight.

Turpin's win is probably more significant than LaMotta's victory because Robinson was the champ and still had a lot in his tank. Randy was giving Ray everything he had in the 2nd bout. He cut Ray's eye in a close fight until it ended.

As far as Robinson a diety? Tried in criminal court for balsphemy? Come on!!!

By the way, my lawyer will soon be in touch.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 24 Nov 2007, 17:31

My point was that no one got perturbed when I listed Randy Turpin as a guy who got too much credit for one particular win, even if it it was over a peak Sugar Ray Robinson. But they did when I mentioned Joe Frazier. Personally, I think Turpin's win was more significant.

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 24 Nov 2007, 17:56

Kirkland Laing's win over Duran

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 24 Nov 2007, 18:03

Seamus wrote:My point was that no one got perturbed when I listed Randy Turpin as a guy who got too much credit for one particular win, even if it it was over a peak Sugar Ray Robinson. But they did when I mentioned Joe Frazier. Personally, I think Turpin's win was more significant.

I agree.Robinson was still in top form. One can make a case with Frazier saying that Joe fought Ali after the retirement and wasn't his old self.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 24 Nov 2007, 20:20

I don't know that anyone really rates Kirkland Laing that highly. He certainly had a few other good performances besides his win over Duran. If anything I prefer to down play his abilities, since that makes his beating Duran all the funnier.

Klee Gluckman · Post by **Klee Gluckman** » 24 Nov 2007, 20:35

Ike gets too much credit for his beating of Tua. It was a close fight and I scored it 115-113 for Tua. Ike won the first four rounds and faded after that. Yes he had a good chin and he beat byrd. But despite what people believe I think Lewis and Holyfiled circa 1998 would have handled Ike comfortably enough.

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 24 Nov 2007, 23:00

Seamus wrote:I don't know that anyone really rates Kirkland Laing that highly. He certainly had a few other good performances besides his win over Duran. If anything I prefer to down play his abilities, since that makes his beating Duran all the funnier.

I think you'll find the English rate his win as one of the best ever, and especially where he wasn't expected to last but a few rounds. Laing is (and probably rightly so) seen as one of if not the, most talented fighters they've ever produced. If he'd paid a bit more attention to trainign etc he could have done so much more

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 25 Nov 2007, 10:43

actually most of us english are more perceptive than that and place kirk's win exactly where it should stand; a very good win against an all time great who didnt take his opponent that seriously ie down the list on our guys numerous victories over yours.

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