Pound-For-Pound

Crew2 · Post by **Crew2** » 22 Nov 2007, 18:47

RICKY SEEMS OBSESSED WITH OSCAR'S RING MAGAZINE PFP RANKINGS ND THIS IMAGINITIVE PFP TITLE THAT MAYWEATHER CARRIES (MOST CONSIDER IT TO BE PACQUAIO, THOUGH), IF HE BEAT MAYWEATHER -- WHICH HE PROBABLY WILL SEEING THE POOR (BY HIS STANDARDS) SHAPE MAYWEATHER SEEMS TO BE IN, THE FACT HE LOOKED SOMEWHAT OVER THE HILL AGAINST AN OVER THE HILL OSCAR ND THE FACT HE'S UNDER RATING RICKY -- DOES RICKY THEN CARRY THIS PFP NO.1 TITLE ?

I DONT THINK HE DOES. RICKY WOULD LOSE TO PAUL WILLIAMS, MARGARITO, SHANE MOSLEY ND MIGUEL COTTO, SO HE'S NOT EVEN THE BEST WELTERWEIGHT IN THE WORLD OR EVEN TOP 3 !

DID HE REALLY LOOK LIKE THE BEST BOXER ALIVE AGAINST MAUSSA, COLLAZO, URANGO ND A SHOT CASTILLO ?

PERSONALLY I THINK CALZAGHE'S MORE IN WITH A SHOUT FOR THE IMAGINITIVE PFP TITLE

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 23 Nov 2007, 05:24

To be P4P best is not as simple as beating the P4P best. It's earned over several years against several opponents. If Hatton wins, I imagine Pacquaio will take over as consensus P4P king (he's not, as you suggested, the consensus choice at the moment), with Hatton at number two or three. He'll need another couple of P4P-calibre wins to earn the number one spot.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 23 Nov 2007, 06:18

There would be no reason for Hatton to be considered pound for pound. He's the best at 140 lbs, but has not succeeded at different weights. IMO, if you are one of the best in the world P4P you should be capable of being able to move up in weight (giving your oppponent the natural strength/size advantage) and still beat the best guys at the weight above. Hatton stepped up and won a title, but that was against Collazo, whom Mosley comfortably dealt with. I can't see Hatton getting the better of any of Cotto, Mosley. Margarito, Cintron or Williams. The reason why he has a chance against Mayweather is because he's a small Welter and beating him IMO would not give him an argument for P4P best in the world. Mayweather on the other hand has won fights up to 154 lbs. I don't agree with too much weight jumping, particularly in Floyds case where against bigger opponents it can become too much cat and mouse, but as far as P4P goes that's how I'd rate them. For P4P status you rely more on skills as the effect of strength and pressure fighting are reduced as the weight increases.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 23 Nov 2007, 06:33

I think deciding this after the fight would be a nice problem to have.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Nov 2007, 06:46

crew, your post is really muddled and bad.

If the light welter #1 can beat the p4p #1, then why not make him the p4p best?

Mayweather isn't going to fight Williams, Cintron, Margarito or Cotto, is he? In fact he's never shown any inclination to fight a hard headed, hard hitting welter.

If Hatton can't beat those guys it means he's not a WELTERWEIGHT. This has a bearing on the WELTERWEIGHT rankings, and not necessarily the p4p.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Nov 2007, 06:50

Autobarn wrote:crew, your post is really muddled and bad.

If the light welter #1 can beat the p4p #1, then why not make him the p4p best?

Mayweather isn't going to fight Williams, Cintron, Margarito or Cotto, is he? In fact he's never shown any inclination to fight a hard headed, hard hitting welter.

If Hatton can't beat those guys it means he's not a WELTERWEIGHT. This has a bearing on the WELTERWEIGHT rankings, and not necessarily the p4p.

No just fought a hard headed, hard hitting Light Middleweight instead

Horse · Post by **Horse** » 23 Nov 2007, 07:26

If Hatton beats Mayweather then he has a very good case for being the P4P number one fighter.

chesh · Post by **chesh** » 23 Nov 2007, 07:31

stujones wrote:
Autobarn wrote:crew, your post is really muddled and bad.

If the light welter #1 can beat the p4p #1, then why not make him the p4p best?

Mayweather isn't going to fight Williams, Cintron, Margarito or Cotto, is he? In fact he's never shown any inclination to fight a hard headed, hard hitting welter.

If Hatton can't beat those guys it means he's not a WELTERWEIGHT. This has a bearing on the WELTERWEIGHT rankings, and not necessarily the p4p.
No just fought a hard headed, hard hitting Light Middleweight instead

That light-middleweight was a semi-retired fighter who, like Floyd, started his career as a 130-pounder. The likes of Williams and Cintron are, naturally, bigger than DLH.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 23 Nov 2007, 08:10

Terry D wrote:
johnswan1 wrote:There would be no reason for Hatton to be considered pound for pound. He's the best at 140 lbs, but has not succeeded at different weights. IMO, if you are one of the best in the world P4P you should be capable of being able to move up in weight (giving your oppponent the natural strength/size advantage) and still beat the best guys at the weight above. Hatton stepped up and won a title, but that was against Collazo, whom Mosley comfortably dealt with. I can't see Hatton getting the better of any of Cotto, Mosley. Margarito, Cintron or Williams. The reason why he has a chance against Mayweather is because he's a small Welter and beating him IMO would not give him an argument for P4P best in the world. Mayweather on the other hand has won fights up to 154 lbs. I don't agree with too much weight jumping, particularly in Floyds case where against bigger opponents it can become too much cat and mouse, but as far as P4P goes that's how I'd rate them. For P4P status you rely more on skills as the effect of strength and pressure fighting are reduced as the weight increases.
I disagree. Hagler and Hopkins did it by dominating a division so why punish a fighter for knowing where his stengths are? Jones, Oscar, Tito and Shane all jumped weights to secure P4P and all looked less and less impressive as they went along.

What about, bear with me on this, the possibility of a heavyweight being P4P, as Ali or Louis would be if they were here now. Would they have to drop down a weight?

Well Hopkins ultimately proved that he could step up and do it, quite easily too. I prefer fighters to stay at a single weight anyway. I don't like strong big guys against small fast little guys who run and jab their way to decisions. Dominating a division over a long time should entitle somebody to be recognised as P4P, but I think the best are usually separated by their ability to perform at weights above where they are disadvantaged. I think that's why most have Pacquaio and Mayweather up there. Calzaghe and Hatton both have the longer reigns and perfect records but Pacman has been KO'd twice inside of three rounds by nobodies and he still gets more recognition having won titles from Flyweight to Super Featherweight. Looking at current champions, Hopkins reign has been more dominant than Calzaghes in that there was nobody really around to dispute his title as the best, while Ottke and Beyer were around during Joes reign. I know in another thread I said Hops record isn't as good as he claims it is - he had mostly poor opposition but beat most of them without much difficulty. Joe has had bigger rivals who he never fought but still had a similar level of competition as Hops. Maybe I'm drifting now from the topic though.

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 23 Nov 2007, 08:16

As for heavyweights, I think the recognition of them in P4P status needs to be different. At the lower weights you can get hit flush and get away with it - you can't do that as often as a heavyweight because chances are you'll be in big trouble. Because of the higher proportion of KO's and the increased power relative at heavyweight, I think for anybody to dominate, unify or completely clear out that division, it would have to put them up for P4P consideration.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 23 Nov 2007, 08:46

You can't discount heavyweights. P4P is meant to overcome the problem of weight in comparing fighters.

In other words were there a P4P poll in Ali's pomp, he'd be top, or second perhaps?

STP · Post by **STP** » 23 Nov 2007, 09:48

I get different explanations of what P4P is. I really don't know what it is!

It used to be a KO Magazine poll at the end of each year basically asking who is the best fighter in the world regardless of weight and who are the other nine. The best got three points and the rest got one. There were thousands of voters. That was back in the 80s and 90s. All the points were added up and in the January issue of each year they'd have the results of the voted 10 best fighters in the world with the most points in order.

It was basically just abit of fun. But it seems to have become very, very serious in the last few years, which is laughable really because it's only fantasy.

STP · Post by **STP** » 23 Nov 2007, 09:51

Copied and pasted this from another board...

KO Magazine fight of the year;

January 1981

1: Saad Muhammad-Lopez
2: Duran-Leonard
3: Sanchez-Castillo

Jan 82

1: Arguello-Mancini
2: Hearns-Leonard
3: Sanchez-Gomez

Jan 83

1: Arugello-Pryor
2: Chacon-Limon
3: Sanchez-Nelson

Jan 84

1: Qawi-Spinks
2: Chacon-Edwards
3: Ramirez-Rosario

Jan 85

1: Ramirez-Rosario II
2: Gomez-Nelson
3: Bramble-Mancini

Jan 86

1: Hagler-Hearns
2: Curry-McCrory
3: McGuigan-Pedroza

Jan 87

1: Holyfield-Qawi
2: McGuigan-Cruz
3: Curry-Honeyghan

Jan 88

1: Cooney-Spinks
2: McCallum-Curry
3: Hagler-Leonard

Jan 89

1: Brown-Trice
2: Lopez-Lockridge
3: Barkley-Olajide

Jan 90

1: Duran-Barkley
2: Chavez-Mayweather
3: Hearns-Leonard

Jan 91

1: Chavez-Taylor
2: Breland-Davis
3: Tyson-Douglas

Jan 92

1: Eubank-Watson II
2: Quiroga-Anifowoshe
3: Blocker-Brown

Jan 93

1: Bowe-Holyfield
2: Nelson-Fenech
3: Moorer-Cooper

Jan 94

1: Cabarjal-Gonzales
2: Brown-Norris
3: Bowe-Holyfield II

Jan 95

1: Chavez-Randell
2: Gatti-Patterson
3: Castro-Jackson

Jan 96

1: Benn-McClellan
2: Sorjaturong-Gonzales
3: Bowe-Holyfield III

KO Magazine pound for pound polls;

January 1980

1: Duran
2: Leonard
3: Gomez
4: Danny Lopez
5: Cuevas
6: Arguello
7: Holmes
8: Benitez
9: Antuofermo
9: Matt Saad Muhammad

Jan 81

1: Hearns
2: Leonard
3: Hagler
4: Holmes
5: Arguello
6: Gomez
7: Eddie Mustafa Muhammad
8: Matt Saad Muhammmad
9: Benitez
10: Duran
10: Pryor

Jan 82

1: Leonard
2: Arguello
3: Hagler
4: Sanchez
5: Benitez
6: Holmes
7: Chandler
8: Pedroza
9: Pryor
10: Hearns
10: Qawi

Dec 83

1: Hagler
2: Pryor
3: Holmes
4: Spinks
5: Chandler
6: Hearns
7: Arguello
8: Gomez
9: Camacho
10: Pedroza

Dec 84

1: Hagler
2: Pryor
3: Holmes
4: Pedroza
5: Camacho
6: Chandler
6: Leonard
8: Spinks
9: Hearns
10: Curry

Dec 85

1: Hagler
2: Camacho
3: Spinks
4: Curry
5: Hearns
6: McGuigan
7: Milton McCrory
8: Pinklon Thomas
8: JCC
10: Holmes

Dec 86

1: Hagler
2: Tyson
3: Curry
4: Hearns
5: Rosario
6: Nelson
6: Spinks
8: Holyfield
9: JCC
10: Camacho

No poll in 87

Dec 88

1: Tyson
2: JCC
3: Holyfield
4: SRL
5: Fenech
6: Nunn
7: Nelson
8: Jung Koo Chang
9: McGirt
10: Kalambay

Dec 89

1: Tyson
2: JCC
3: Taylor
4: Nunn
5: Holyfield
6: Whitaker
7: SRL
8: Fenech
9: Nelson
10: Starling

Dec 90

1: JCC
2: Whitaker
3: Tyson
4: Taylor
5: Douglas
6: Brown
7: Esparagoza
8: Nunn
9: Holyfield
10: Humberto Gonzales

December 91

1: JCC
2: Whitaker
3: Holyfield
4: Tyson
5: Taylor
6: McCallum
7: Hearns
8: Galaxy
9: Norris
10: Kyun Park

Dec 92

1: JCC
2: Norris
3: Whitaker
4: McGirt
5: Bowe
6: Nelson
7: Barkley
7: Canizales
9: Jackson
10: RJJ
10: Lewis
10: McCallum

December 93

1: Whitaker
2: JCC
3: Norris
4: Toney
5: Carbajal
6: Holyfield
7: McGirt
8: RJJ
9: Canizales
10: Lopez

December 94

1: Whitaker
2: RJJ
3: McClellan
4: Randall
5: Lopez
6: Canizales
7: Gonzales
8: Toney
9: Trinidad
10: Kelley

Dec 95

1: RJJ
2: Whitaker
3: DLH
4: Trinidad
5: Barrera
6: Bowe
7: Lopez
8: Chavez
9: Quartey
10: Hamed

Ring magazine pound for pound rankings;

Feb 1993

1: JCC
2: Whitaker
3: Norris
4: Holyfield
5: Canizales
6: McGirt
7: Nelson
8: Julian Jackson
9: Kil Moon
10: Toney

Sept 96

1: RJJ
2: Whitaker
3: DLH
4: Trinidad
5: Barrera
6: Lopez
7: Tszyu
8: Bowe
9: Norris
10: Tyson

Sept 98

1: DLH
2: RJJ
3: Holyfield
4: Trinidad
5: Mark Johnson
6: Whitaker
7: Hamed
8: Tapia
9: Lopez
10: Hopkins

June 01

1: Trinidad
2: Mosley
3: RJJ
4: Hamed
5: Mayweather
6: DLH
7: Tszyu
8: Morales
9: Judah
10: Vargas

June 03

1: Hopkins
2: RJJ
3: Barrera
4: DLH
5: Tszyu
6: Morales
7: Mayweather
8: Mayorga
9: Lewis
10: Forrest

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Nov 2007, 14:48

stujones wrote:
Autobarn wrote:crew, your post is really muddled and bad.

If the light welter #1 can beat the p4p #1, then why not make him the p4p best?

Mayweather isn't going to fight Williams, Cintron, Margarito or Cotto, is he? In fact he's never shown any inclination to fight a hard headed, hard hitting welter.

If Hatton can't beat those guys it means he's not a WELTERWEIGHT. This has a bearing on the WELTERWEIGHT rankings, and not necessarily the p4p.
No just fought a hard headed, hard hitting Light Middleweight instead

DLH -past it, muddled, always overrated big time handiapper

Some of these young welters are killers.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Nov 2007, 15:39

Autobarn wrote:
stujones wrote:
Autobarn wrote:crew, your post is really muddled and bad.

If the light welter #1 can beat the p4p #1, then why not make him the p4p best?

Mayweather isn't going to fight Williams, Cintron, Margarito or Cotto, is he? In fact he's never shown any inclination to fight a hard headed, hard hitting welter.

If Hatton can't beat those guys it means he's not a WELTERWEIGHT. This has a bearing on the WELTERWEIGHT rankings, and not necessarily the p4p.
No just fought a hard headed, hard hitting Light Middleweight instead
DLH -past it, muddled, always overrated big time handiapper

Some of these young welters are killers.

Yeah part time world champion - sorry the phrase is a contradiction.

Margarito is completely overated - okay bashing about the small guys, put him against quality and he losses. I'm sure DLH would have a hard time (even now) with Daniel Santos

.

Cotto is now up in the elite league, now... not before Mayweathers last fight - so give Floyd a chance. Love to see that fight now, no doubt... Next natural fight for the winner.

Paul Williams needs to prove himself a bit first - Cintron is ideal... but at the moment its all unproven.

And Carlos Baldomir was the #1 Welterweight at the time of their fight.

But if I here DLH being discredited as a "joke" and Margarito and Cintron, AT THIS MOMENT, as being credited a more meaningful fight I think I will scream like a girl.

Margarito hardly looked like a "killer" vs Williams and Santos... oh movers! (Just like Floyd) and Cintron hardly looked like a "killer" getting anhilated vs Margarito... Lets see his chin tested again before we label him the next big thing.

Tykemania · Post by **Tykemania** » 25 Nov 2007, 06:22

stujones wrote:
Autobarn wrote:crew, your post is really muddled and bad.

If the light welter #1 can beat the p4p #1, then why not make him the p4p best?

Mayweather isn't going to fight Williams, Cintron, Margarito or Cotto, is he? In fact he's never shown any inclination to fight a hard headed, hard hitting welter.

If Hatton can't beat those guys it means he's not a WELTERWEIGHT. This has a bearing on the WELTERWEIGHT rankings, and not necessarily the p4p.
No just fought a hard headed, hard hitting Light Middleweight instead

hehehe - good point. Though I think most people would agree that an aging, spurt fighting De La Hoya was far less of a threat to Floyd than certainly Cotto or Williams would be.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Nov 2007, 20:49

I don't know Tyke - but I admit to being bias on this one. I DEFINATELY think though we need to see more of Williams before making judgements on his credentials - Cintron might be the ideal opponent.

Cotto more dangerous? - difficult to say, certainly offers different things than Oscar - whether he is more dangerous is a bit open to debate - because Oscar offers something different too (such as Handspeed).

Well, Cintron didn't look like an animal at the weekend - not a response to your point Tyke, but to Autobarn. Really struggled against a poor man's Mickey Ward.