Jeffries vs Johnson: Prime Against Prime

[pound per pound]

In the latest Johnson bio O'Brien's reputation is brought into question. Doesn't mean the fight wasn't legit...

Being champion back then didn't mean the same thing. It was recognition from the fans and a meal ticket the champion.

I agree that Johnson's best is probably pre-championship.

Pre-champ Johnson lost to Choysnki, Klondike, Griffin,and Hart. While all these men were good fighters ( espeically Choynski ), the bald truth is these men were seasoned heavyweights, not grassy green novices like a teenaged McVey or no experience Jeanette, or 156 pounds like Langford.

The results on the matches speak for themselves. When Johnson was matched vs quality fighters who had the right mix of experience, and size he struggled pre-championship.

[donnellon]

Johnson was also caught and KOed by journeyman Joe Chonski.

Quite a journey you have to admit!
However one point to make and that is while Choynsky was one hellofa fighter, he was well on the slide when he nailed Johnson and Jack himself had eneough experience for this defeat NOT to be glossed over. A BAD, BAD LOSS FOR JOHNSON.

[Ezzard]

Johnson was also not always prepared, was not a protected fighter and many of those guys back them lost fights. Prostine records are a modern invention. Those guys fought to eat, not for TV contracts.

Holmes never rematched Witherspoon and never fought Thomas or Page.

[Ambling Alp]

"First of all, I will say that (and I have said this before) that Lennox Lewis had a good chin. The punch that landed on him would have knocked out almost any other heavyweight champion. He did get up against McCall and I think may have survived the round if the referee had let him continue.
He fought many other good punchers (I'm sure you know who) and wasn't knocked down by anyone else.
So no, I don't think Lewis had a "shaky" chin. He didn't have a great chin, but he had a good chin. If he had a "shaky" chin, he would have been hurt,knocked down, and knocked out much more often.
I am no big proponent of Lennox Lewis. I don't think he deserved the decision against Mercer or in the Holyfield rematch, and I think his jab is way overrated. However, I have never understood the criticism of his chin.

Johnson, on the other hand, was never knocked out during a 14 year period. That is even more impressive than what what Lewis did. Where is the evidence that Johnson had a "shaky" chin? The only times that he was knocked out were early in his career and when he was over the hill.
In fact during those 14 years, he was seldom hurt or even knocked down.
If he had a shaky chin he would have been knocked out during his prime. He never was." - Alp

Well, I have to admit I wasn't expecting that. McCall & Rahman were good punchers, but in no way could either be reasonably interpreted as one-punch KO artists. I suppose in the case of the first McCall fight the stoppage was subjective, but I can't see how the referee could be criticised for calling it. I won't say Lewis couldn't have survived --- but look at his eyes, not just as he goes down, but while he does his little involuntary dance, gloves over drooping jaw. The eyes tell the story. Lewis was clear enough to protest, but that was all. He was sick.

Rahman put out how many fighters (first-class or even second) with one shot for the count? He couldn't even beat (much less KO) a Holyfield older than the Sphinx itself. Big punchers Mercer & Tyson rarely if ever landed cleanly on the jaw (I must be the only guy who saw Lewis-Mercer as competitive but no more than that, Lewis won).

My point is, it is just too facile to say Johnson was rarely KO'd & therefore must've had a great chin. Chins improve as a fighter matures, but rarely do they dramatically change. Johnson wasn't getting hit in his prime, & wasn't getting KO'd as a result. As a young man approaching his peak, he made mistakes, & he was hung out for it on at least two occasions. He began his pro career in 1894. Between 1899 & 1901, he was twice beaten inside the distance. After five & seven years respectively as a pro, it is unfair to call Johnson green & therefore blameless in defeat. Those were relatively early-round losses that came on fairly quick, rightly indicating Johnson wasn't as tough as some may believe. Joe Choynski was an exceptional fighter sure, but if you're a big Heavyweight (by those times) you do not get floored for the count by a 168lber. Period. No excuses. Name me a 175-180lber in history who would KO George Foreman, or, let's say, Joe Frazier (who was smaller than Johnson).

People wish to throw out the Ketchel knockdown & that is just reaching, IMO. I accept that a deal was made, & Ketchel took advantage, so I don't at all blame Johnson for getting caught. However, look at the film. Ketchel, a Middleweight, floored & visibly hurt Johnson (Johnson recovers quickly, but plainly is shaken as he gets to all fours). Someone said if a great Heavyweight were dropped by a Middle, the Internet chin police (there's a new one :P) would be out to get him, & it's true. Johnson's chin gets a free pass, & it's wrong. He just wasn't getting hit throughout much of his prime, certainly not in succession for repeated rounds. Johnson gets the credit for being too classy (although he did his own ducking as a champion, it must be concluded), but the truth is he was too good to suffer the blows of many opponents, at least not in sustained assault.

Again let me make this point --- if a Sonny Liston, a George Foreman or an Evander Holyfield had suffered such knockdowns or knockouts against opponents who ranged in weight from Middle to Super-Middle, we would never, ever hear the end of it. Not that it is related to his chin, but I give Johnson a free pass for Moran because he was plainly old at that time. But to say the fight isn't close (I know that wasn't a point you made) is strange to me. Johnson-Moran was quite close indeed.

Interesting situation in this thread, I may note. We have four members arguing, two on one side, two on the other, but as yet we have not exchanged dance partners, DempseyFire & I haven't argued & either have Alp & PPP. I hope the rest of us are enjoying this as am I.

First of all, idon't want to digress too much into Lewis, since this thread isn't about him. But yes I think the McCall fight was stopped too soon. The referee asked if he was ok and he said he was. Why bother asking the guy if he says yes and you stop it anyway? Lewis also had the prescence of mind to hold his gloves up to signal that he was ok. If he was really that hurt, he wouldn't have done either of these two things.

As for the Rahman fight, I have talked about this on other threads. Just becasue Rahman didn't knock out other fighters, doesn't mean that the punch that he landed on Lewis wasn't devastating. As I have said, watch the punch. It was right on the button. It's fair to criticize Lewis for getting hit with the punch in the first place, but it's not fair to criticize him for not getting up. Only a handful of heavyweight champions would have gotten up from that.
You can't tell me in that all of Lewis' fights against hard punchers (Tyson,Mercer,Tua,Briggs,Bruno, Ruddock etc.) he didn't get hit with some good shots from time to time.
Fighters with less of reputation as a hard puncher than Rahman have scored devastating knockouts. Michael Nunn curshed Kalambay. Wilfred Benitez, whom some consider a light puncher, scored a brutal knockout against Maurice Hope.

As for Johnson, it's very decieving to say that he started his career in 1894 and so he wasn't green when he got knocked out.
First of all, he had virtually no professional training in his early career.
2nd, he only had two fights in 1894, 1 in 1895, and 1 in 1896. His career didn't really start until 1897.

Would Frazier or Foreman been knocked out by Choynski? Not when they were in their prime. However, Johnson was still pretty inexperienced. He had never fought anyone as good or who had punched as hard as Choynski. Fighters can learn how to roll with some punches, absorb punches when they are hit clean, and know what to do when they do get tagged with a haymaker. Johnson didn't know these things when he fought Choynski, but would learn them. He really didn't hit prime either experience wise or physically for about 3 years after fighting Choynski.

It's also important to note that Johnson hadn't matured physically when he fought Choynski. However, Johnson only weighed 168 in a fight less than a year before Choynski and only weighed 185 a year later. At his peak Johnson weighed more than 195.
There is a huge difference between knocking out the skinny, inexperienced Johnson in 1901, and experienced,muscular Johnson a few years later.

And no, I don't think Johnson was the least bit hurt against Ketchel. He was down for what, about two seconds? He din't look hurt at all to me. Just angry. He got up immediatly and knocked Ketchel out. It's pretty obvious that he could have knocked Ketchel out in the first round if he had wanted to.
In a period of over 14 years, Johnson never even came close to being knocked out. Of course his good defense helped, but over that long of a period of time you are going to get from time to time. It's simply illogical to say that a guy who never came close to being knocked out between the ages of 22 and 37 has a shaky chin.

[HomicideHenry]

I think Johnson had a very solid chin, but then again, anyone who's been knocked out before, can be knocked out again. It just takes a special kind of fighter to do the job. If you want to knock me on that comment, go right ahead, but I am quoting Muhammad Ali on that.

But what kind of fighter then could have done it, least against a prime Jack Johnson? I can't name a single one. All the effective fighters were either passed their best, or wasn't around to have done it, mainly Jim Jeffries.

Jeffries is the only man I can think of who at his best, could have absorbed all the punishment, still give Johnson fits, and eventually out power/muscle Johnson late in the fight to win by a knockout. [The only man from that time period is what I meant].

Corbett maybe, but it would have been a dull fight that would have ended in a draw or a no-contest [he went to a draw with Peter Jackson after 60 rounds after all, and Jackson was probably the equal of Johnson].

Fitzsimmons I can't see doing it, because I think he would have been too willing to have traded with Johnson, and while the fight would have been brutal with both men cut and bones broken (its a possibility, Fitz was known for breaking opponents arms and hands) I think Johnson would have out powered Fitzsimmons, like Jeffries done twice to Fitz, and it would have ended in a KO in 8 or so rounds.

Jeffries, is the only man from that era, I can think of who could have done it. But had Jeffries fought Johnson when he was in his prime [when Jeffries was still the champion]...Jeffries would have won, considering Johnson was still green [Johnson wouldnt get his shot until 1908, while Jeffries retired in 1904-1905, winning the title in 1899] and wasn't the skilled man that he was to become, been an easy night for the Ironman Jim Jeffries.

Prime against Prime...be Jeffries toughest fight, and I believe it would have also been Johnson's toughest fight as well. But I think Jeffries had enough resolve and that something extra, to have walked through it and soaked it all up, to win.

[dempseyfire]

In the latest Johnson bio O'Brien's reputation is brought into question. Doesn't mean the fight wasn't legit...

Being champion back then didn't mean the same thing. It was recognition from the fans and a meal ticket the champion.

I agree that Johnson's best is probably pre-championship.

Pre-champ Johnson lost to Choysnki, Klondike, Griffin,and Hart. While all these men were good fighters ( espeically Choynski ), the bald truth is these men were seasoned heavyweights, not grassy green novices like a teenaged McVey or no experience Jeanette, or 156 pounds like Langford.

The results on the matches speak for themselves. When Johnson was matched vs quality fighters who had the right mix of experience, and size he struggled pre-championship.

Johnson had fought ONCE outside of Galveston TX at the time of the Choynski loss. He was still essentially an amateur . . he'd had no amateur career. Put any poor (financially) fighter with that level of experience in with a seasoned GREAT fighter like Choynski and they don't win. Comparing that situation to someone carefully trained and managed with care like Wlad losing to Purrity/Sanders is COMPLETELY ignoring the historical context needed when researching fighters in that era.
The Klondike loss was when Johnson was even less experienced malnourished vs a top Northwest Heavyweight, and he retired in his corner . . that fight says nothing about his chin. Better trained and experienced he knocked Klondike out easily.

I've said before, Jeannette and McVey have very incomplete records and were much more experienced than their Boxrec records show. McVey was already the top Black Heavyweight on the West Coast by the time he fought Johnson.

The wide majority of press reports cite the Hart loss as a very bad decision. Contrary to the reports re: Johnson, which states that the fight sucked and both fighters stunk out the joint. The crowd did not believe Jim Johnson had done enough to "win" and was "robbed." . . Johnson was tired and hurt at the end b/c he'd just broken his arm. As with any bout vs an unknown, much acclaim was given to the udnerdog whenever he landed ANYTHING . . doesn't mean he won. Vs O'Brian, Johnson LAUGHED throughout the 6 rounds at O'Brian's attacks . . .no-one doubted if Johnson had taken the fight seriously he would've won handidly. No-one seriously though O'Brian had "won" the title. Johnson was an extremely unpopular champion . . if the public had seen O'Brian or Johnson the rightful victor, the outcry would have been enormous. You are looking at negative press of sucky fights of a lackluster Johnson and saying Johnson's opponents were "robbed" which is simply not true.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...If a 5'9" 160 pound middle weight can knock down the heavyweight champion of the world, the heavyweight champion's chin should be questioned..." - PPP

& I can't for the life of me understand why this statement, apparently, doesn't make sense? Johnson didn't get knocked down because Ketchel broke their agreement. He got knocked down --- stay with me here --- because he was hit with a shot that exceeded his punch-resistance. By a Middleweight. If, in a fixed or non-fixed bout, Carlos Monzon floored Joe Frazier, or Bernard Hopkins dropped Lennox Lewis, those Heavyweights would have the press hand them their heads, as well they should. Johnson, however, escapes critique.


I'll tell you something, if Klitschko was taken out by Toney, he would never, ever, ever live it down on this or any other board. I can't see members here or anywhere else being nearly so forgiving. Sure, Klitschko is bigger than Johnson, but Toney is bigger than Choynski was.

Alp? If Johnson was supposedly a rookie, then it works both ways, no? The thing of it is, Choynski was on the other side of the mountain. A brief study of his career will confirm that for you. But if we're going to allow Johnson justification because he was young, some of that has to lose it's gloss on the basis of Choynski being past it. & again, this was a much smaller man who had little difficulty in not only taking Johnson out, but doing it quickly. Again, take George Foreman or Sonny Liston, or even a slightly smaller Heavyweight like Max Baer, while they are young & green, if you like, & put them in with any 168-175lber in history (who must be over-the-hill, no less) & state your reasons why this smaller man would KO these young Heavyweights, & why those men would not have it held against them. It would be interesting.

We'll leave a debate about the resistance of Lennox Lewis' chin to another thread then.

Fair enough if you don't see Johnson hurt against Ketchel, matter of opinion I suppose. However, he was dropped. By a Middleweight. Johnson's chin wasn't in on the fix, & it was exposed. It is in no way unreasonable to suggest Johnson's jaw was shaky. I guess if between 22 & 37 I were to fight against men many leagues below me in terms of talent, size, skill, ability & desire, & never got knocked out, would I therefore get an automatic pass for my chin? Now, I'm not saying Johnson did that --- I'm just working with your statement that Johnson had to have had a good chin on the basis he was not KO'd for a long time.

& let's look at that competition --- in how many fights is Johnson much the bigger, stronger, infinitely more talented man? I guess you could give Lewis credit for not getting KO'd by a puncher such as Tommy Morrison too, if you ignored the gap in size & ability. The Johnson-Flynn fight is a good example of this. Johnson shows how out of Flynn's league he is by holding him on the head. It's laughable. There were quite a few fights like this. & when it came to some suitably relevant challengers while he was champion - McVey, & Jeanette, he openly avoided them as they pursued him as he had once chased Burns.

Jack Johnson had a shaky chin, low pain threshold overall & made it his career ambition not to get hit hard & often. He learned his lesson while young he was far short of invincible, in a time when toughness was paramount & lauded perhaps above all other attributes. Credit to him for being a smart man who knew his limitations & defended them excellently. But the guy showed in those knockout losses & the Ketchel knockdown he couldn't take it. In what fight did he absorb tremendous punishment to the body or head, & go on to win?

[Goodnight, Irene]

"He was still essentially an amateur . . he'd had no amateur career. Put any poor (financially) fighter with that level of experience in with a seasoned GREAT fighter like Choynski and they don't win." - DempseyFire

C'mon now, DempseyFire, you cannot label Johnson an amateur, & in the same breath describe Choynski as a, "seasoned GREAT." He was over-the-hill, not seasoned. It's fair enough if you want to say Johnson was green, but it's unfair to pick & choose descriptions.

[dempseyfire]

"...If a 5'9" 160 pound middle weight can knock down the heavyweight champion of the world, the heavyweight champion's chin should be questioned..." - PPP

& I can't for the life of me understand why this statement, apparently, doesn't make sense? Johnson didn't get knocked down because Ketchel broke their agreement. He got knocked down --- stay with me here --- because he was hit with a shot that exceeded his punch-resistance. By a Middleweight. If, in a fixed or non-fixed bout, Carlos Monzon floored Joe Frazier, or Bernard Hopkins dropped Lennox Lewis, those Heavyweights would have the press hand them their heads, as well they should. Johnson, however, escapes critique.


I'll tell you something, if Klitschko was taken out by Toney, he would never, ever, ever live it down on this or any other board. I can't see members here or anywhere else being nearly so forgiving. Sure, Klitschko is bigger than Johnson, but Toney is bigger than Choynski was.

Alp? If Johnson was supposedly a rookie, then it works both ways, no? The thing of it is, Choynski was on the other side of the mountain. A brief study of his career will confirm that for you. But if we're going to allow Johnson justification because he was young, some of that has to lose it's gloss on the basis of Choynski being past it. & again, this was a much smaller man who had little difficulty in not only taking Johnson out, but doing it quickly. Again, take George Foreman or Sonny Liston, or even a slightly smaller Heavyweight like Max Baer, while they are young & green, if you like, & put them in with any 168-175lber in history (who must be over-the-hill, no less) & state your reasons why this smaller man would KO these young Heavyweights, & why those men would not have it held against them. It would be interesting.

We'll leave a debate about the resistance of Lennox Lewis' chin to another thread then.

Fair enough if you don't see Johnson hurt against Ketchel, matter of opinion I suppose. However, he was dropped. By a Middleweight. Johnson's chin wasn't in on the fix, & it was exposed. It is in no way unreasonable to suggest Johnson's jaw was shaky. I guess if between 22 & 37 I were to fight against men many leagues below me in terms of talent, size, skill, ability & desire, & never got knocked out, would I therefore get an automatic pass for my chin? Now, I'm not saying Johnson did that --- I'm just working with your statement that Johnson had to have had a good chin on the basis he was not KO'd for a long time.

& let's look at that competition --- in how many fights is Johnson much the bigger, stronger, infinitely more talented man? I guess you could give Lewis credit for not getting KO'd by a puncher such as Tommy Morrison too, if you ignored the gap in size & ability. The Johnson-Flynn fight is a good example of this. Johnson shows how out of Flynn's league he is by holding him on the head. It's laughable. There were quite a few fights like this. & when it came to some suitably relevant challengers while he was champion - McVey, & Jeanette, he openly avoided them as they pursued him as he had once chased Burns.

Jack Johnson had a shaky chin, low pain threshold overall & made it his career ambition not to get hit hard & often. He learned his lesson while young he was far short of invincible, in a time when toughness was paramount & lauded perhaps above all other attributes. Credit to him for being a smart man who knew his limitations & defended them excellently. But the guy showed in those knockout losses & the Ketchel knockdown he couldn't take it. In what fight did he absorb tremendous punishment to the body or head, & go on to win?

Give me a hard punching 170 lb man, landing their Sunday punch on an unexpecting opponent, and that opponent can go down, regardless of how big the opponent is. Doesn't mean alert and in a fair fight, they couldn't take that same punch or the punches of a bigger man. I weigh 165 lbs, and have knocked down men much bigger than Johnson. If Johnson had stayed down or appeared seriously hurt, you'd have a point.Simply going down from an unexpected punch . . yes, a one punch artist at 165-70 lbs (Gerald M, Jones Jr) could knock down a Foreman or Klitscko in that same situation. Again, as pointed out, feather-hitting Jimmy Young KD'd Foreman . . but Foreman takes the Sunday punches of Morrison, Holyfield, and Frazier . . .does Young hit harder than them now?

Johnson took solid shots from Moran, McVey, Martin etc. and was never in trouble . . he often laughed off those shots. Even the massive right hand from Willard sent Johnson down more due to exhaustion than being seriously hurt . . Johnson after the count of 10 got right back up and seemed completely fine. When, during his career up to Willard and his prison sentence, was Johnson ever counted out? TWICE vs Choynski when he was green (and the size difference at the time was minimal at best as the living from paycheck to paycheck Johnson was only scaling around 180 lbs to the light HW Choynski), and to Willard, a monster hitter while dead exhausted in the 26th round at 37 years old. Frankly, you couldn't have a glass jaw in that era and be successful. It was too tough coming up to the top. Johnson won Battle Royales before he turned professional. You don't win those by doing 'Mayweather impersonations' hiding your china chin.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You know perfectly well Foreman went down as a matter of exhaustion against Young. Why even bring it up, if you know the comparison is invalid?

I haven't --- & won't --- criticise Johnson for Willard for the same reason I ignore the Moran fight (which, in spite of your protests, was absolutely a close fight). I'm not pointing to the Willard fight because Johnson was a shot fighter, & he wasn't exactly blown out either.

If you are willing to argue to me that Roy Jones Jr. could floor George Foreman, it tells me you will go to all lengths to protect Johnson since you obviously think he was that great a fighter, & also, apparently, that tough a fighter.

"Give me a hard punching 170lb man, landing their Sunday punch on an unexpecting opponent, and that opponent can go down, regardless of how big the opponent is. Doesn't mean alert and in a fair fight, they couldn't take that same punch or the punches of a bigger man." - DF



My mistake. I thought Johnson met Choynski in a boxing ring, in a scheduled fight. Judging from this statement, Choynski blindsided him as Johnson strolled down an alley after dark. To say, "Johnson didn't really try in fight X", or, "Johnson wasn't alert when he was hit," is just explaining away the facts as if they didn't happen. Choynski was a small man, over-the-hill, & he splattered Johnson fair-&-square. If Choynski did the same to a respectable-jawed Heavyweight like Foreman or Liston, I would streak from here to Korea. It ain't happening, unless your jaw is suspect. Likewise Ketchel, who again, was a Middleweight. A Middleweight floored --- & I would argue somewhat hurt --- a Heavyweight. That should be the end of any argument about a Heavyweight's chin, & it sure would be if we were talking about the much-maligned Wlad Klitschko. He sure wouldn't have any support.

Jack Johnson fought cautiously & took very few chances in fights because he knew he could be hurt. (One of the reasons promoter Ted Brenner argued against Johnson doing well against modern heavies was because he took too few chances to win a twelve or fifteen-rounder.) The record is there for examination. Like all good fighters, Johnson knew his limits. Lennox Lewis always fought cautiously, & it cost him with the fans. Fewer people watched him, fewer people purchased his PPV's. Do you think Lewis wasn't aware? He would've loved to make the big payday a more regular occurrence, but he just didn't have the chin to throw caution to the wind, & the same thing was true of Johnson. He just didn't have a strong chin.

[dempseyfire]

You know perfectly well Foreman went down as a matter of exhaustion against Young. Why even bring it up, if you know the comparison is invalid?

I haven't --- & won't --- criticise Johnson for Willard for the same reason I ignore the Moran fight (which, in spite of your protests, was absolutely a close fight). I'm not pointing to the Willard fight because Johnson was a shot fighter, & he wasn't exactly blown out either.

If you are willing to argue to me that Roy Jones Jr. could floor George Foreman, it tells me you will go to all lengths to protect Johnson since you obviously think he was that great a fighter, & also, apparently, that tough a fighter.

"Give me a hard punching 170lb man, landing their Sunday punch on an unexpecting opponent, and that opponent can go down, regardless of how big the opponent is. Doesn't mean alert and in a fair fight, they couldn't take that same punch or the punches of a bigger man." - DF



My mistake. I thought Johnson met Choynski in a boxing ring, in a scheduled fight. Judging from this statement, Choynski blindsided him as Johnson strolled down an alley after dark. To say, "Johnson didn't really try in fight X", or, "Johnson wasn't alert when he was hit," is just explaining away the facts as if they didn't happen. Choynski was a small man, over-the-hill, & he splattered Johnson fair-&-square. If Choynski did the same to a respectable-jawed Heavyweight like Foreman or Liston, I would streak from here to Korea. It ain't happening, unless your jaw is suspect. Likewise Ketchel, who again, was a Middleweight. A Middleweight floored --- & I would argue somewhat hurt --- a Heavyweight. That should be the end of any argument about a Heavyweight's chin, & it sure would be if we were talking about the much-maligned Wlad Klitschko. He sure wouldn't have any support.

Jack Johnson fought cautiously & took very few chances in fights because he knew he could be hurt. (One of the reasons promoter Ted Brenner argued against Johnson doing well against modern heavies was because he took too few chances to win a twelve or fifteen-rounder.) The record is there for examination. Like all good fighters, Johnson knew his limits. Lennox Lewis always fought cautiously, & it cost him with the fans. Fewer people watched him, fewer people purchased his PPV's. Do you think Lewis wasn't aware? He would've loved to make the big payday a more regular occurrence, but he just didn't have the chin to throw caution to the wind, & the same thing was true of Johnson. He just didn't have a strong chin.

I was referring to the Ketchel KD, which is what I thought you were referring to. Again, a hard hitting middleweight could knock down any super HW given the right shot. Ask any boxer and they will concur. Knocking OUT is a different question.

Is Reggie Johnson a better puncher than Sam Peter, Evander Holyfield, and Hasim Rahman? B/c he was able to knock down Toney hard, wherease the 3 mentioned could not (Peter did once in 24 rounds on a balance shot) So, unless you feel the extra fat Toney gained and being in your late 30s somehow makes your chin better, Johnson WAS a bigger puncher according to this logic.

But he wasn't. He landed the right shot. That is boxing.

Regarding Choynski, it was a vastly experienced, hard hitting 170 lber knocking out a 180 lb (fight reports indicate Johnson was weighing that amount at that time), vastly inexperienced against world class comp. fighter with potential. That example is seen throughout boxing history. I don't see that as a big black mark on Johnson's record at all. Put Ali with 24 amateur fights and 1 professional fight in with Archie Moore and he probably gets knocked out too.

Regarding the Moran fight, please look up the NY Times write-up of the fight you have been citing yourself. "Johnson's point victory was by a tremondous margin."

"Moran was outclassed in every particular"

"The cinematorgraph people were considerably anxious, fearful that Johnson might lose his temper and knock out Moran, thus violating their understanding."

Close fight????

[HomicideHenry]

In defense of "just a middleweight" Ketchell, he was and so far is the hardest hitting Middleweight in history. Ketchell was such a powerful guy that he wasn't scared shitless of black fighters like most guys were, as he fought Sam Langford and though it went down as a No Decision, many newspapers wrote it down as a win for Ketchell. The rub is, had he not been murdered, it's quite possible Ketchell could have been champ for maybe a decade more. By the time he was killed, he had beaten every worth while contender who stood a remote chance.

Out of 52 wins, 49 came by knock out. Just how powerful was Ketchell? That's up for debate as many 'fans' deem that the old guys weren't as great as the guys today [which is biased and ludacris]; but Ketchell from time to time did abandon the Middleweight class and fought guys like Philadelphia Jack O'Brien who would be Light Heavyweight champion and knocked him out in three rounds. Fitzsimmons and Johnson and Burns wasn't able to knock O'Brien out, but Ketchell did. Ketchell also knocked down Heavyweight Hugh McGann down six times all nine counts.

BoxRec records aren't the best, but it does seem McGann was at least a decent journeyman who would later tangle with Mike Donovan, Mike Schrek, and Gunboat Smith.

Ketchell, who was "just a middleweight", had Heavyweight power. Maybe not the bombing kind of power, but it does seem that he his power didn't dissipate too much, despite moving up two weight classes.

[Iownthisforum]

BEsides the Johnson fight I havent seen any of Jeffries....what is everyone basing their opinions on? How many Jeffries fight are actually on film that have been viewed?

[pound per pound]

p4p:

Pre-champ Johnson lost to Choysnki, Klondike, Griffin,and Hart. While all these men were good fighters ( espeically Choynski ), the bald truth is these men were seasoned heavyweights, not grassy green novices like a teenaged McVey or no experience Jeanette, or 156 pounds like Langford.

The results on the matches speak for themselves. When Johnson was matched vs quality fighters who had the right mix of experience, and size he struggled pre-championship

.

Dempseyfire:
Johnson had fought ONCE outside of Galveston TX at the time of the Choynski loss. He was still essentially an amateur . . he'd had no amateur career. Put any poor (financially) fighter with that level of experience in with a seasoned GREAT fighter like Choynski and they don't win. Comparing that situation to someone carefully trained and managed with care like Wlad losing to Purrity/Sanders is COMPLETELY ignoring the historical context needed when researching fighters in that era.
The Klondike loss was when Johnson was even less experienced malnourished vs a top Northwest Heavyweight, and he retired in his corner . . that fight says nothing about his chin. Better trained and experienced he knocked Klondike out easily.

p4p:

Let the excuses for Johnson start here. The Choynski fight was in Johnson home town. It was Choysnki who rode the rails to meet him. Bottom line is the, Johnson had been a pro for 7 years. He had 25+ known fights and a few battle royal matches under his belt. This is hardly green. Choynski, a smaller fighter took advantage of Johnson's suspect chin and knocked him out. Johnson is quoted saying his head was ringing the next day.

By no means did Johnson avenge his TKO loss to Klondike Haines easily as you claim. It took 14 rounds of fighting, then Klondike quit. Klondike wasn't a top fighter. He was just a good journeyman, and his record vs the great Jack Johnson was 1-1-1.

Dempsey fire : I've said before, Jeannette and McVey have very incomplete records and were much more experienced than their Boxrec records show. McVey was already the top Black Heavyweight on the West Coast by the time he fought Johnson.

p4p: McVey was a teenager when Johnson defeated him. Jeanette had a losing record, and picked up boxing at the age of 25-26. If you want to objectively play a green card, these two fighters apply. Johnson win over Jeanette meant very little. The fact that Jeanette could be competitive makes one wonder. I suppose Mcvey had a decent enough resume when he fought Johnson, but how good could have Mcvey been as a teenager with less than 8 recorded fights when he first meet Johnson?

Dempsey Fire:

The wide majority of press reports cite the Hart loss as a very bad decision.

P4p: Hold the phone, this was a high stakes match with the winner possibly earning a shot at Jeffries is the money / interest was right. Hart was Johnson size, with some experience. Johnson got hurt with body shots and opted to play it safe for the secodn half of the fight. Some sources say Hart won. Johnson, who was a man known to bend the truth to make himself look better, is quoted saying Hart whipped him.

We have to ask ourselves, if Johnson could not tame Hart, would he really have a shot vs Jeffries in 1905? I think not. Like I said before, when the Johnson was matched vs a guy with some ability near his size, and experience level, his results were average. The proof is in the pudding of the results, Dempseyfire.

Demseyfire: Contrary to the reports re: Johnson, which states that the fight sucked and both fighters stunk out the joint. The crowd did not believe Jim Johnson had done enough to "win" and was "robbed." . .
Johnson was tired and hurt at the end b/c he'd just broken his arm. As with any bout vs an unknown, much acclaim was given to the udnerdog whenever he landed ANYTHING . . doesn't mean he won.

Johnson sucked in this fight. First off, the match was scheduled for TWENTY ROUNDS. Johnson quit in 10! The correct result should have been a new lineal champion via TKO. Papers were divided on who the champion was after this match. Some said Jim Johnson. Others said the winner of Langford vs Jeanette should be the new chmpion.

One judge had Jim Johnson in the lead when Johnson quit. The other two were un-decided. A home cookin' draw for Jack was the result. There was no re-match to avenge this dubious mark on Johnson's resume either. Can you post a report that says the crowd did not think Jim Johnson did enough to win? I'd like to read that one! Its bunk. The report I posted had the crowds’ reaction to the fight, and it was very pro Jim Johnson as the winner.

Dempseyfire:
Vs O'Brian, Johnson LAUGHED throughout the 6 rounds at O'Brian's attacks . . .no-one doubted if Johnson had taken the fight seriously he would've won handidly. No-one seriously though O'Brian had "won" the title. Johnson was an extremely unpopular champion . . if the public had seen O'Brian or Johnson the rightful victor, the outcry would have been enormous. You are looking at negative press of sucky fights of a lackluster Johnson and saying Johnson's opponents were "robbed" which is simply not true.

p4p: Another excuse for Johnson? Enough already!!! Can't you see if you have to keep offering excuses, that Johnson ring ability was over rated. This is the 3rd excuse you offered. The more I post on this topic, the more the excuses you seem to offer. Johnson's vaunted defense had issues vs a speedy boxer type in O'Brien. This makes one wonder, what if Johnson fought more skilled guys bigger than O'brien, more durable than O'brien, and guys who can punch harder than O'brien. O'Brien was on the decline vs a prime Jack Johnson.

The fact that a much lighter middle weight could edge the boxing by a shade according to the press vs the heavyweight champion of the world is yet another HOLY COW type of moment in Johnson's career.

It appears that Jim Johnson was absolutely robbed, and O’Brien at the very least deserved a quick re-match, which of course Jack Johnson did not offer.

[dempseyfire]

p4p:

Pre-champ Johnson lost to Choysnki, Klondike, Griffin,and Hart. While all these men were good fighters ( espeically Choynski ), the bald truth is these men were seasoned heavyweights, not grassy green novices like a teenaged McVey or no experience Jeanette, or 156 pounds like Langford.

The results on the matches speak for themselves. When Johnson was matched vs quality fighters who had the right mix of experience, and size he struggled pre-championship

.

Dempseyfire:
Johnson had fought ONCE outside of Galveston TX at the time of the Choynski loss. He was still essentially an amateur . . he'd had no amateur career. Put any poor (financially) fighter with that level of experience in with a seasoned GREAT fighter like Choynski and they don't win. Comparing that situation to someone carefully trained and managed with care like Wlad losing to Purrity/Sanders is COMPLETELY ignoring the historical context needed when researching fighters in that era.
The Klondike loss was when Johnson was even less experienced malnourished vs a top Northwest Heavyweight, and he retired in his corner . . that fight says nothing about his chin. Better trained and experienced he knocked Klondike out easily.

p4p:

Let the excuses for Johnson start here. The Choynski fight was in Johnson home town. It was Choysnki who rode the rails to meet him. Bottom line is the, Johnson had been a pro for 7 years. He had 25+ known fights and a few battle royal matches under his belt. This is hardly green. Choynski, a smaller fighter took advantage of Johnson's suspect chin and knocked him out. Johnson is quoted saying his head was ringing the next day.

By no means did Johnson avenge his TKO loss to Klondike Haines easily as you claim. It took 14 rounds of fighting, then Klondike quit. Klondike wasn't a top fighter. He was just a good journeyman, and his record vs the great Jack Johnson was 1-1-1.

Dempsey fire : I've said before, Jeannette and McVey have very incomplete records and were much more experienced than their Boxrec records show. McVey was already the top Black Heavyweight on the West Coast by the time he fought Johnson.

p4p: McVey was a teenager when Johnson defeated him. Jeanette had a losing record, and picked up boxing at the age of 25-26. If you want to objectively play a green card, these two fighters apply. Johnson win over Jeanette meant very little. The fact that Jeanette could be competitive makes one wonder. I suppose Mcvey had a decent enough resume when he fought Johnson, but how good could have Mcvey been as a teenager with less than 8 recorded fights when he first meet Johnson?

Dempsey Fire:

The wide majority of press reports cite the Hart loss as a very bad decision.

P4p: Hold the phone, this was a high stakes match with the winner possibly earning a shot at Jeffries is the money / interest was right. Hart was Johnson size, with some experience. Johnson got hurt with body shots and opted to play it safe for the secodn half of the fight. Some sources say Hart won. Johnson, who was a man known to bend the truth to make himself look better, is quoted saying Hart whipped him.

We have to ask ourselves, if Johnson could not tame Hart, would he really have a shot vs Jeffries in 1905? I think not. Like I said before, when the Johnson was matched vs a guy with some ability near his size, and experience level, his results were average. The proof is in the pudding of the results, Dempseyfire.

Demseyfire: Contrary to the reports re: Johnson, which states that the fight sucked and both fighters stunk out the joint. The crowd did not believe Jim Johnson had done enough to "win" and was "robbed." . .
Johnson was tired and hurt at the end b/c he'd just broken his arm. As with any bout vs an unknown, much acclaim was given to the udnerdog whenever he landed ANYTHING . . doesn't mean he won.

Johnson sucked in this fight. First off, the match was scheduled for TWENTY ROUNDS. Johnson quit in 10! The correct result should have been a new lineal champion via TKO. Papers were divided on who the champion was after this match. Some said Jim Johnson. Others said the winner of Langford vs Jeanette should be the new chmpion.

One judge had Jim Johnson in the lead when Johnson quit. The other two were un-decided. A home cookin' draw for Jack was the result. There was no re-match to avenge this dubious mark on Johnson's resume either. Can you post a report that says the crowd did not think Jim Johnson did enough to win? I'd like to read that one! Its bunk. The report I posted had the crowds’ reaction to the fight, and it was very pro Jim Johnson as the winner.

Dempseyfire:
Vs O'Brian, Johnson LAUGHED throughout the 6 rounds at O'Brian's attacks . . .no-one doubted if Johnson had taken the fight seriously he would've won handidly. No-one seriously though O'Brian had "won" the title. Johnson was an extremely unpopular champion . . if the public had seen O'Brian or Johnson the rightful victor, the outcry would have been enormous. You are looking at negative press of sucky fights of a lackluster Johnson and saying Johnson's opponents were "robbed" which is simply not true.

p4p: Another excuse for Johnson? Enough already!!! Can't you see if you have to keep offering excuses, that Johnson ring ability was over rated. This is the 3rd excuse you offered. The more I post on this topic, the more the excuses you seem to offer. Johnson's vaunted defense had issues vs a speedy boxer type in O'Brien. This makes one wonder, what if Johnson fought more skilled guys bigger than O'brien, more durable than O'brien, and guys who can punch harder than O'brien. O'Brien was on the decline vs a prime Jack Johnson.

The fact that a much lighter middle weight could edge the boxing by a shade according to the press vs the heavyweight champion of the world is yet another HOLY COW type of moment in Johnson's career.

It appears that Jim Johnson was absolutely robbed, and O’Brien at the very least deserved a quick re-match, which of course Jack Johnson did not offer.

This is so full of holes I don't know where to start.

Johnson vs Choynski was facing his first world class fighter, had fought 20-something opponents with zero proper amateur fights sans any notable training/trainer), had fought ONCE outside of Galveston (which, I'll safely assume, wasn't a hotbed of young boxing talent), AND was a underfed skinny 180 lbs. These aren't excuses, these are the facts. Boxing back then was a LOT different than in 1990 when promoters would basically give prospects all the ameneties to succeed. Johnson was barely putting food on the table at this point.
But losing to Choynski is some kind of "holy cow" moment. If Johnson's chin sucks, where are his other early KO losses? You say his defense sucked/highly over-rated . . .so with this leaky defense and bad chin where are all his other KO defeats?

Haynes was a hard-punching gatekeeper opponent, and an extremely malnourished Johnson almost KO'd him in their first fight before exhaustion took its toll. In the 14 rd KO win, where did you read it was a difficult fight for Johnson. Are you jumping to conclusions simply b/c the fight went 14 rounds? I guess Johnson-Jefferies must've been a real struggle for Jack since it ended in the 15th . .

Again, McVey and Jeannette were clearly more experienced than their official boxrec records. At the time of the first McVey-Johnson bout McVey was considered the 3rd best black HW next to Johnson and Martin .. . . but I guess with your thinking all black HWs sucked back then and a 6 fight veteran could be considered in such a fashion. After the first Johnson defeat Mcvey proved his worth by beating both Ed Martin and Kid Carter . . and then in two subsequent meetings with Johnson got abused.

The press never said O'Brian "edged Johnson" . .they scored it a draw, and according to the reports, the round in which Johnson hurt O'Brian and forced him to clinch for a minute to clear his head . . .O'Brian won!!! Sounds like an objective writer to me! It was clear to everyone present Johnson wasn't taking the fight seriously and that O'Brian didn't pose a real threat to Johnson. The public was SALIVATING at the prospect of a white regaining the title. But no-one who saw the fight could say anything more than "it was about even, Johnson was clearly toying with O'Brian and not taking it seriously, Johnson was by far the harder puncher" . . there was no rematch b/c no-one wanted to see a rematch.
Bigger and fast . . I have no doubt Ed Martin, Jeannette, Langford were harder hitters than O'Brian and in his league speed-wise, and concerning speed you can add MIddleweight champ George Gardner in there as well. Johnson beat them all easily. Johnson beat bigger fighters (Jefferies, Martin, Mcvea, Haynes, Willard for 20 rounds).

Johnson NEVER said Hart whupped him . . .where do you get this stuff? Johnson easily outboxed and counter-punched the crap out of Hart, Hart was always the aggressor but only won about 5 of the last 6 rounds . . which would make Johnson a commanding 15-5 winner (San Fran Examiner). Hart gained the decision as the referee stated "I always give the gamest and aggresive fighter the decision" which speaks to the fact that's the only criteria he could use giving the fight to Hart. For a modern example, it was equal to scoring Gomez-Sinam Sam for Sam.


Your posts are the definition of revisionist history. Crying about single newspaper reports regarding the Johnson and O'Brian fights is like looking at fight reports of Ali-Young and Ali-Evangelista and saying "look Ali's defense sucked, he got hit often by these guys, Ali didn't put forth a great effort, many had Young winning the fight, Ali was a fraud" etc etc.

[pound per pound]

p4p
Pre-champ Johnson lost to Choysnki, Klondike, Griffin,and Hart. While all these men were good fighters ( espeically Choynski ), the bald truth is these men were seasoned heavyweights, not grassy green novices like a teenaged McVey or no experience Jeanette, or 156 pounds like Langford.

The results on the matches speak for themselves.

p4p:

Let the excuses for Johnson start here. The Choynski fight was in Johnson home town. It was Choysnki who rode the rails to meet him. Bottom line is the, Johnson had been a pro for 7 years. He had 25+ known fights and a few battle royal matches under his belt. This is hardly green. Choynski, a smaller fighter took advantage of Johnson's suspect chin and knocked him out. Johnson is quoted saying his head was ringing the next day.

By no means did Johnson avenge his TKO loss to Klondike Haines easily as you claim. It took 14 rounds of fighting, then Klondike quit. Klondike wasn't a top fighter. He was just a good journeyman, and his record vs the great Jack Johnson was 1-1-1.

Dempsey fire : I've said before, Jeannette and McVey have very incomplete records and were much more experienced than their Boxrec records show. McVey was already the top Black Heavyweight on the West Coast by the time he fought Johnson.

p4p: McVey was a teenager when Johnson defeated him. Jeanette had a losing record, and picked up boxing at the age of 25-26. If you want to objectively play a green card, these two fighters apply. Johnson win over Jeanette meant very little. The fact that Jeanette could be competitive makes one wonder. I suppose Mcvey had a decent enough resume when he fought Johnson, but how good could have Mcvey been as a teenager with less than 8 recorded fights when he first meet Johnson?

Dempsey Fire:

The wide majority of press reports cite the Hart loss as a very bad decision.

P4p: Hold the phone, this was a high stakes match with the winner possibly earning a shot at Jeffries is the money / interest was right. Hart was Johnson size, with some experience. Johnson got hurt with body shots and opted to play it safe for the secodn half of the fight. Some sources say Hart won. Johnson, who was a man known to bend the truth to make himself look better, is quoted saying Hart whipped him.

We have to ask ourselves, if Johnson could not tame Hart, would he really have a shot vs Jeffries in 1905? I think not. Like I said before, when the Johnson was matched vs a guy with some ability near his size, and experience level, his results were average. The proof is in the pudding of the results, Dempseyfire.

Demseyfire: Contrary to the reports re: Johnson, which states that the fight sucked and both fighters stunk out the joint. The crowd did not believe Jim Johnson had done enough to "win" and was "robbed." . .
Johnson was tired and hurt at the end b/c he'd just broken his arm. As with any bout vs an unknown, much acclaim was given to the udnerdog whenever he landed ANYTHING . . doesn't mean he won.

Johnson sucked in this fight. First off, the match was scheduled for TWENTY ROUNDS. Johnson quit in 10! The correct result should have been a new lineal champion via TKO. Papers were divided on who the champion was after this match. Some said Jim Johnson. Others said the winner of Langford vs Jeanette should be the new chmpion.

One judge had Jim Johnson in the lead when Johnson quit. The other two were un-decided. A home cookin' draw for Jack was the result. There was no re-match to avenge this dubious mark on Johnson's resume either. Can you post a report that says the crowd did not think Jim Johnson did enough to win? I'd like to read that one! Its bunk. The report I posted had the crowds’ reaction to the fight, and it was very pro Jim Johnson as the winner.

Dempseyfire:
Vs O'Brian, Johnson LAUGHED throughout the 6 rounds at O'Brian's attacks . . .no-one doubted if Johnson had taken the fight seriously he would've won handidly. No-one seriously though O'Brian had "won" the title. Johnson was an extremely unpopular champion . . if the public had seen O'Brian or Johnson the rightful victor, the outcry would have been enormous. You are looking at negative press of sucky fights of a lackluster Johnson and saying Johnson's opponents were "robbed" which is simply not true.

p4p: Another excuse for Johnson? Enough already!!! Can't you see if you have to keep offering excuses, that Johnson ring ability was over rated. This is the 3rd excuse you offered. The more I post on this topic, the more the excuses you seem to offer. Johnson's vaunted defense had issues vs a speedy boxer type in O'Brien. This makes one wonder, what if Johnson fought more skilled guys bigger than O'brien, more durable than O'brien, and guys who can punch harder than O'brien. O'Brien was on the decline vs a prime Jack Johnson.

The fact that a much lighter middle weight could edge the boxing by a shade according to the press vs the heavyweight champion of the world is yet another HOLY COW type of moment in Johnson's career.

It appears that Jim Johnson was absolutely robbed, and O’Brien at the very least deserved a quick re-match, which of course Jack Johnson did not offer.[/quote]

Demspeyfire This is so full of holes I don't know where to start.

Johnson vs Choynski was facing his first world class fighter, had fought 20-something opponents with zero proper amateur fights sans any notable training/trainer), had fought ONCE outside of Galveston (which, I'll safely assume, wasn't a hotbed of young boxing talent), AND was a underfed skinny 180 lbs. These aren't excuses, these are the facts. Boxing back then was a LOT different than in 1990 when promoters would basically give prospects all the ameneties to succeed. Johnson was barely putting food on the table at this point.

But losing to Choynski is some kind of "holy cow" moment. If Johnson's chin sucks, where are his other early KO losses? You say his defense sucked/highly over-rated . . .so with this leaky defense and bad chin where are all his other KO defeats?

>>p4p, yes, HOLY COW. Choynski was passed his best and produced a 1 punch KO vs a bigger man who had 25+ fights and 7 years of experience, in his home town. Keep up with the excuses Demspeyfire.

Demspeyfire:Haynes was a hard-punching gatekeeper opponent, and an extremely malnourished Johnson almost KO'd him in their first fight before exhaustion took its toll. In the 14 rd KO win, where did you read it was a difficult fight for Johnson. Are you jumping to conclusions simply b/c the fight went 14 rounds? I guess Johnson-Jefferies must've been a real struggle for Jack since it ended in the 15th . .

>>Can you show a report that says Johnson was malnourished? I think not! Anyway, Haines could hit, and Johnson had a suspect chin. The result was a KO for Haines when he landed. The return match that Johnson won via KO went 14 rounds. I doubt you have read the reports as I have. It was not an easy win for Johnson as you claimed.

Demspeyfire says: Again, McVey and Jeannette were clearly more experienced than their official boxrec records. At the time of the first McVey-Johnson bout McVey was considered the 3rd best black HW next to Johnson and Martin .. . . but I guess with your thinking all black HWs sucked back then and a 6 fight veteran could be considered in such a fashion. After the first Johnson defeat Mcvey proved his worth by beating both Ed Martin and Kid Carter . . and then in two subsequent meetings with Johnson got abused.

>>>p4p, and again what? I can play the same game. Johnson was clearly more experienced than the official box rec records when lost too!!! Also, why claim Johnson was green, but not McVey and Jeanette? this smells of an agenda. In fact McVey and Jeanette were clearly less expereinced when Johnson beat them in comparison to the Johnson experience level vs Choynski.

Demspeyfire:
The press never said O'Brian "edged Johnson" . .they scored it a draw, and according to the reports, the round in which Johnson hurt O'Brian and forced him to clinch for a minute to clear his head . . .O'Brian won!!! Sounds like an objective writer to me! It was clear to everyone present Johnson wasn't taking the fight seriously and that O'Brian didn't pose a real threat to Johnson. The public was SALIVATING at the prospect of a white regaining the title. But no-one who saw the fight could say anything more than "it was about even, Johnson was clearly toying with O'Brian and not taking it seriously, Johnson was by far the harder puncher" . . there was no rematch b/c no-one wanted to see a rematch.
Bigger and fast . . I have no doubt Ed Martin, Jeannette, Langford were harder hitters than O'Brian and in his league speed-wise, and concerning speed you can add MIddleweight champ George Gardner in there as well. Johnson beat them all easily. Johnson beat bigger fighters (Jefferies, Martin, Mcvea, Haynes, Willard for 20 rounds).

>>>p4p. Yes some in the press felt O'Brien edged Johnson by a small margin. How do you know Johnson did not try to win? And if this is the case, why give a darn about him anyway? You offer too many excuses, and nothing to back it up. Again, why no re-match for O'Brien?

Demspeyfire says : Johnson NEVER said Hart whupped him . . .where do you get this stuff? Johnson easily outboxed and counter-punched the crap out of Hart, Hart was always the aggressor but only won about 5 of the last 6 rounds . . which would make Johnson a commanding 15-5 winner (San Fran Examiner). Hart gained the decision as the referee stated "I always give the gamest and aggresive fighter the decision" which speaks to the fact that's the only criteria he could use giving the fight to Hart. For a modern example, it was equal to scoring Gomez-Sinam Sam for Sam.

Your posts are the definition of revisionist history. Crying about single newspaper reports regarding the Johnson and O'Brian fights is like looking at fight reports of Ali-Young and Ali-Evangelista and saying "look Ali's defense sucked, he got hit often by these guys, Ali didn't put forth a great effort, many had Young winning the fight, Ali was a fraud" etc etc.[/quote]

>>p4p: . Please try and spin this. And note, I can and will back up my stuff in print quotes. Instead of saying I am revising history by using information most relevant to the matches ( fight reports the next day or so after ), I'd like to see you produce something that backs up what you say. The way I see it, I am quoting what happened in the ring. You are not. So who is the revisonist here?

JOHNSON VS HART:

Johnson admitted this in Boxing Illustrated re-pritned article.

Here it is, it's from a Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."

[dempseyfire]

p4p
Pre-champ Johnson lost to Choysnki, Klondike, Griffin,and Hart. While all these men were good fighters ( espeically Choynski ), the bald truth is these men were seasoned heavyweights, not grassy green novices like a teenaged McVey or no experience Jeanette, or 156 pounds like Langford.

The results on the matches speak for themselves.

p4p:

Let the excuses for Johnson start here. The Choynski fight was in Johnson home town. It was Choysnki who rode the rails to meet him. Bottom line is the, Johnson had been a pro for 7 years. He had 25+ known fights and a few battle royal matches under his belt. This is hardly green. Choynski, a smaller fighter took advantage of Johnson's suspect chin and knocked him out. Johnson is quoted saying his head was ringing the next day.

By no means did Johnson avenge his TKO loss to Klondike Haines easily as you claim. It took 14 rounds of fighting, then Klondike quit. Klondike wasn't a top fighter. He was just a good journeyman, and his record vs the great Jack Johnson was 1-1-1.

Dempsey fire : I've said before, Jeannette and McVey have very incomplete records and were much more experienced than their Boxrec records show. McVey was already the top Black Heavyweight on the West Coast by the time he fought Johnson.

p4p: McVey was a teenager when Johnson defeated him. Jeanette had a losing record, and picked up boxing at the age of 25-26. If you want to objectively play a green card, these two fighters apply. Johnson win over Jeanette meant very little. The fact that Jeanette could be competitive makes one wonder. I suppose Mcvey had a decent enough resume when he fought Johnson, but how good could have Mcvey been as a teenager with less than 8 recorded fights when he first meet Johnson?

Dempsey Fire:

The wide majority of press reports cite the Hart loss as a very bad decision.

P4p: Hold the phone, this was a high stakes match with the winner possibly earning a shot at Jeffries is the money / interest was right. Hart was Johnson size, with some experience. Johnson got hurt with body shots and opted to play it safe for the secodn half of the fight. Some sources say Hart won. Johnson, who was a man known to bend the truth to make himself look better, is quoted saying Hart whipped him.

We have to ask ourselves, if Johnson could not tame Hart, would he really have a shot vs Jeffries in 1905? I think not. Like I said before, when the Johnson was matched vs a guy with some ability near his size, and experience level, his results were average. The proof is in the pudding of the results, Dempseyfire.

Demseyfire: Contrary to the reports re: Johnson, which states that the fight sucked and both fighters stunk out the joint. The crowd did not believe Jim Johnson had done enough to "win" and was "robbed." . .
Johnson was tired and hurt at the end b/c he'd just broken his arm. As with any bout vs an unknown, much acclaim was given to the udnerdog whenever he landed ANYTHING . . doesn't mean he won.

Johnson sucked in this fight. First off, the match was scheduled for TWENTY ROUNDS. Johnson quit in 10! The correct result should have been a new lineal champion via TKO. Papers were divided on who the champion was after this match. Some said Jim Johnson. Others said the winner of Langford vs Jeanette should be the new chmpion.

One judge had Jim Johnson in the lead when Johnson quit. The other two were un-decided. A home cookin' draw for Jack was the result. There was no re-match to avenge this dubious mark on Johnson's resume either. Can you post a report that says the crowd did not think Jim Johnson did enough to win? I'd like to read that one! Its bunk. The report I posted had the crowds’ reaction to the fight, and it was very pro Jim Johnson as the winner.

Dempseyfire:
Vs O'Brian, Johnson LAUGHED throughout the 6 rounds at O'Brian's attacks . . .no-one doubted if Johnson had taken the fight seriously he would've won handidly. No-one seriously though O'Brian had "won" the title. Johnson was an extremely unpopular champion . . if the public had seen O'Brian or Johnson the rightful victor, the outcry would have been enormous. You are looking at negative press of sucky fights of a lackluster Johnson and saying Johnson's opponents were "robbed" which is simply not true.

p4p: Another excuse for Johnson? Enough already!!! Can't you see if you have to keep offering excuses, that Johnson ring ability was over rated. This is the 3rd excuse you offered. The more I post on this topic, the more the excuses you seem to offer. Johnson's vaunted defense had issues vs a speedy boxer type in O'Brien. This makes one wonder, what if Johnson fought more skilled guys bigger than O'brien, more durable than O'brien, and guys who can punch harder than O'brien. O'Brien was on the decline vs a prime Jack Johnson.

The fact that a much lighter middle weight could edge the boxing by a shade according to the press vs the heavyweight champion of the world is yet another HOLY COW type of moment in Johnson's career.

It appears that Jim Johnson was absolutely robbed, and O’Brien at the very least deserved a quick re-match, which of course Jack Johnson did not offer.

Demspeyfire This is so full of holes I don't know where to start.

Johnson vs Choynski was facing his first world class fighter, had fought 20-something opponents with zero proper amateur fights sans any notable training/trainer), had fought ONCE outside of Galveston (which, I'll safely assume, wasn't a hotbed of young boxing talent), AND was a underfed skinny 180 lbs. These aren't excuses, these are the facts. Boxing back then was a LOT different than in 1990 when promoters would basically give prospects all the ameneties to succeed. Johnson was barely putting food on the table at this point.

But losing to Choynski is some kind of "holy cow" moment. If Johnson's chin sucks, where are his other early KO losses? You say his defense sucked/highly over-rated . . .so with this leaky defense and bad chin where are all his other KO defeats?

>>p4p, yes, HOLY COW. Choynski was passed his best and produced a 1 punch KO vs a bigger man who had 25+ fights and 7 years of experience, in his home town. Keep up with the excuses Demspeyfire.

Demspeyfire:Haynes was a hard-punching gatekeeper opponent, and an extremely malnourished Johnson almost KO'd him in their first fight before exhaustion took its toll. In the 14 rd KO win, where did you read it was a difficult fight for Johnson. Are you jumping to conclusions simply b/c the fight went 14 rounds? I guess Johnson-Jefferies must've been a real struggle for Jack since it ended in the 15th . .

>>Can you show a report that says Johnson was malnourished? I think not! Anyway, Haines could hit, and Johnson had a suspect chin. The result was a KO for Haines when he landed. The return match that Johnson won via KO went 14 rounds. I doubt you have read the reports as I have. It was not an easy win for Johnson as you claimed.

Demspeyfire says: Again, McVey and Jeannette were clearly more experienced than their official boxrec records. At the time of the first McVey-Johnson bout McVey was considered the 3rd best black HW next to Johnson and Martin .. . . but I guess with your thinking all black HWs sucked back then and a 6 fight veteran could be considered in such a fashion. After the first Johnson defeat Mcvey proved his worth by beating both Ed Martin and Kid Carter . . and then in two subsequent meetings with Johnson got abused.

>>>p4p, and again what? I can play the same game. Johnson was clearly more experienced than the official box rec records when lost too!!! Also, why claim Johnson was green, but not McVey and Jeanette? this smells of an agenda. In fact McVey and Jeanette were clearly less expereinced when Johnson beat them in comparison to the Johnson experience level vs Choynski.

Demspeyfire:
The press never said O'Brian "edged Johnson" . .they scored it a draw, and according to the reports, the round in which Johnson hurt O'Brian and forced him to clinch for a minute to clear his head . . .O'Brian won!!! Sounds like an objective writer to me! It was clear to everyone present Johnson wasn't taking the fight seriously and that O'Brian didn't pose a real threat to Johnson. The public was SALIVATING at the prospect of a white regaining the title. But no-one who saw the fight could say anything more than "it was about even, Johnson was clearly toying with O'Brian and not taking it seriously, Johnson was by far the harder puncher" . . there was no rematch b/c no-one wanted to see a rematch.
Bigger and fast . . I have no doubt Ed Martin, Jeannette, Langford were harder hitters than O'Brian and in his league speed-wise, and concerning speed you can add MIddleweight champ George Gardner in there as well. Johnson beat them all easily. Johnson beat bigger fighters (Jefferies, Martin, Mcvea, Haynes, Willard for 20 rounds).

>>>p4p. Yes some in the press felt O'Brien edged Johnson by a small margin. How do you know Johnson did not try to win? And if this is the case, why give a darn about him anyway? You offer too many excuses, and nothing to back it up. Again, why no re-match for O'Brien?

Demspeyfire says : Johnson NEVER said Hart whupped him . . .where do you get this stuff? Johnson easily outboxed and counter-punched the crap out of Hart, Hart was always the aggressor but only won about 5 of the last 6 rounds . . which would make Johnson a commanding 15-5 winner (San Fran Examiner). Hart gained the decision as the referee stated "I always give the gamest and aggresive fighter the decision" which speaks to the fact that's the only criteria he could use giving the fight to Hart. For a modern example, it was equal to scoring Gomez-Sinam Sam for Sam.

Your posts are the definition of revisionist history. Crying about single newspaper reports regarding the Johnson and O'Brian fights is like looking at fight reports of Ali-Young and Ali-Evangelista and saying "look Ali's defense sucked, he got hit often by these guys, Ali didn't put forth a great effort, many had Young winning the fight, Ali was a fraud" etc etc.[/quote]

>>p4p: . Please try and spin this. And note, I can and will back up my stuff in print quotes. Instead of saying I am revising history by using information most relevant to the matches ( fight reports the next day or so after ), I'd like to see you produce something that backs up what you say. The way I see it, I am quoting what happened in the ring. You are not. So who is the revisonist here?

JOHNSON VS HART:

Johnson admitted this in Boxing Illustrated re-pritned article.

Here it is, it's from a Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."[/quote]

Johnson would tell you he was white if he thought it beneficial to him. He told so many tall tales one can't even start. He said in his autobiography, and after the fight, that he was robbed. I have two newspaper reports giving Johnson 14-15 rounds.

Re: Johnson-Haynes: Actually, the Chicago newspaper writer wrote that Johnson looked skinny and sickly. One doesn't have to be a scientist to note that in the footage (both training and in the fight films) re: the Jefferies and Ketchel fights show that Johnson was in magnificent shape at 195-210 lbs . . .still very lean but muscular. The same man in his mid 20s at 180 lbs is underfed. Poor blacks in the Deep South hustling for money and doing small-time prizefighting wouldn't be affording big meals every day.

Also, Johnson wasn't knocked out from any punch. He retired on his stool from exhaustion.

How do I know Johnson didn't try vs O'Brian. B/c every person there said it . .read any of the fight reports. Johnson came in the fight not in shape, let O'Brian punch him and laughed throughout the contest. No-one present felt any need for a rematch.

Lastly, there is a good chance Johnson has some 'lost fights'. But he's also been MUCH more throughly researched (both during and after his career) since he was the first black HW champion and a major national figure. McVea and Jeannette on the other hand faded into obscurity except for the die-hard boxing historians. Thus, Johnson's record is certaintly more complete than of the lesser black HWs of that era.

[pound per pound]

p4p: . Please try and spin this. And note, I can and will back up my stuff in print quotes. Instead of saying I am revising history by using information most relevant to the matches ( fight reports the next day or so after ), I'd like to see you produce something that backs up what you say. The way I see it, I am quoting what happened in the ring. You are not. So who is the revisonist here?

JOHNSON VS HART:

Johnson admitted this in Boxing Illustrated re-printed article.

Here it is, it's from a Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."[/quote]

Demspeyfire: Johnson would tell you he was white if he thought it beneficial to him. He told so many tall tales one can't even start. He said in his autobiography, and after the fight, that he was robbed. I have two newspaper reports giving Johnson 14-15 rounds.

p4p: post them here. Johnson did nothing but run the entire second half of the fight. His corner man were urging him on to fight. One can not pull an Oscar De La Hoya for 10 rounds and expect to win.

Demspeyfire: Johnson-Haynes: Actually, the Chicago newspaper writer wrote that Johnson looked skinny and sickly. One doesn't have to be a scientist to note that in the footage (both training and in the fight films) re: the Jefferies and Ketchel fights show that Johnson was in magnificent shape at 195-210 lbs . . .still very lean but muscular. The same man in his mid 20s at 180 lbs is underfed. Poor blacks in the Deep South hustling for money and doing small-time prizefighting wouldn't be affording big meals every day.

Also, Johnson wasn't knocked out from any punch. He retired on his stool from exhaustion.

My version says he took the count. You think he quit? Ok then Johnson is the lone heavyweight champion to quit and get Ko'd for a ten count. This sounds like an O-V-E-R R-A-T-E-D champion to me.

Dempsey fire : How do I know Johnson didn't try vs O'Brian. B/c every person there said it . .read any of the fight reports. Johnson came in the fight not in shape, let O'Brian punch him and laughed throughout the contest. No-one present felt any need for a rematch.

Lastly, there is a good chance Johnson has some 'lost fights'. But he's also been MUCH more throughly researched (both during and after his career) since he was the first black HW champion and a major national figure. McVea and Jeannette on the other hand faded into obscurity except for the die-hard boxing historians. Thus, Johnson's record is certaintly more complete than of the lesser black HWs of that era.

Johnson was out speed by O'brien, and his did not ham it up in the report I posted. Who says he did not try to win? Only you. If the era wanted a white hope, then perhaps O'brien deserved a re-match based on this showing. More excuses....

[p4p1]

johnson may well have been ahead of his time but tyson would still eat him up tyson would be to fast and throw too many combinations for johnson i dont like the idea that a great from 1hundred years ago could be one from 10 or 20 i think the sport has evolved to much for that but that said tyson still had amazing physical attributes and he was so much better when he wasnt scared

[dempseyfire]

p4p: . Please try and spin this. And note, I can and will back up my stuff in print quotes. Instead of saying I am revising history by using information most relevant to the matches ( fight reports the next day or so after ), I'd like to see you produce something that backs up what you say. The way I see it, I am quoting what happened in the ring. You are not. So who is the revisonist here?

JOHNSON VS HART:

Johnson admitted this in Boxing Illustrated re-printed article.

Here it is, it's from a Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."

Demspeyfire: Johnson would tell you he was white if he thought it beneficial to him. He told so many tall tales one can't even start. He said in his autobiography, and after the fight, that he was robbed. I have two newspaper reports giving Johnson 14-15 rounds.

p4p: post them here. Johnson did nothing but run the entire second half of the fight. His corner man were urging him on to fight. One can not pull an Oscar De La Hoya for 10 rounds and expect to win.

Demspeyfire: Johnson-Haynes: Actually, the Chicago newspaper writer wrote that Johnson looked skinny and sickly. One doesn't have to be a scientist to note that in the footage (both training and in the fight films) re: the Jefferies and Ketchel fights show that Johnson was in magnificent shape at 195-210 lbs . . .still very lean but muscular. The same man in his mid 20s at 180 lbs is underfed. Poor blacks in the Deep South hustling for money and doing small-time prizefighting wouldn't be affording big meals every day.

Also, Johnson wasn't knocked out from any punch. He retired on his stool from exhaustion.

My version says he took the count. You think he quit? Ok then Johnson is the lone heavyweight champion to quit and get Ko'd for a ten count. This sounds like an O-V-E-R R-A-T-E-D champion to me.

Dempsey fire : How do I know Johnson didn't try vs O'Brian. B/c every person there said it . .read any of the fight reports. Johnson came in the fight not in shape, let O'Brian punch him and laughed throughout the contest. No-one present felt any need for a rematch.

Lastly, there is a good chance Johnson has some 'lost fights'. But he's also been MUCH more throughly researched (both during and after his career) since he was the first black HW champion and a major national figure. McVea and Jeannette on the other hand faded into obscurity except for the die-hard boxing historians. Thus, Johnson's record is certaintly more complete than of the lesser black HWs of that era.

Johnson was out speed by O'brien, and his did not ham it up in the report I posted. Who says he did not try to win? Only you. If the era wanted a white hope, then perhaps O'brien deserved a re-match based on this showing. More excuses....[/quote]






From the Trenton Times:

"Johnson was a 2 to 1 favorite when
the fight began. After the first few
rounds Johnson let Hart do most of
the leading, except in the ninth round,
when with 'lefts and rights the negro
- punilshed Hart badly.
Johnson showed the best form in the
first round and landed several hard
rights on the body in the clinches. He
also drove a couple of swings home on
Hart's head. The second round was
more, lively, with Johnson showing the
best form. He smashed Hart's kidneys,
which caused the Louisville man to
gasp. Jdhnsnn landed left and eight
hooks to the jaw as the round closed.
Hart put two hard right-lefts to the heart
during the round.
Hart was aggressive in the third
round, but was unable to land any effective
Wows. Johnson kept away and
apparently did not extend himself.
The men worked into several clinchesin
the forth round and there were one
or two hot exchanges, but without
any damage.
Hart tried to work in close during the
fifth round, but Johnson blocked his
leads.
The sixth round started like a real
prize fight. Hart rushed, but Johnson
put him back with a straight left and
followed it with another, which was
the hardest blow struck during the
flght. They came into clinches, Hart
trying to get in close.
Round seven was Johnson's. He
hooked his left to Hart's jaw repeat-
edly'and as the round closed he snapped
two rights to the jaw.
The eighth and ninth rounds were
lively and Johnson's admirers thought
that the negro would surely do the
trick,His boxing superiority and
strength were evident. He did, some
qulck two-hand punching and Hart bled
freely. Hart was still aggressive and
sought to land some hard blows in the
clinches, but got several hard wallops
for his trouble.
Johnson jammed him In the corner in
the tenth round. There were some good
exchanges in the eleventh round and
Hart was still eager and game.
The negro slowed visibly in the next
three rounds and seemed perturbed at
the way Hart was assimilating punishment.
The bourbon kept wading in
and ln the fifteenth and sixteenth
rounds drove Johnson around the ring
with fierce swings to the head and
body.
Johnson showed better form in the
seventeenth round and. hammered his
opponent hard and often. Hart was
tlred at the close.
Hart was the aggressor in the last
three rounds and Kept piling in with
hard-rights to the body. Johnson acted
as though he was tired and his seconds
kept calling him to hit It up. Hart
made a target of the negro's ribs. The
fight closed with little doing and the
referee, because of Hart's aggressiveness,
gave him the decision."

According to this and the San Fran Examiner (which I don't have online), Johnson clearly won the first 14 rounds, lost 15 and 16, won the 17th, and lost the 18th, 19th, and 20th. No way should he have lost that fight. None of the accounts state Johnson did any "running" of any kind.

1899, Chicago Tribune: Johnson-Haynes, states Johnson quit in the 5th round, describes Johnson as "nearly starved".

1909 Chicago Tribune and Philadelphia Inquirer re the O'Brian fight. Reporters state Johnson didn't put forth much effort at all, laughing, waving to audience members, and carrying on conversations with his corner throughout the fight. Whenever Johnson did open up (and it was not often), it was clear who was much more powerful and dominant fighter. Again, there were no calls for a rematch b/c the fight was awful and no-one thought O'Brian demonstrated any type of real threat in a serious prizefight. Only this boxing forum poster, PFP, almost 100 years later, is stating O'Brian proved himself superior and earned a rematch!!!

[donnellon]

Cool report, wonder where it came from!

From the Trenton Times:

"Johnson was a 2 to 1 favorite when
the fight began. After the first few
rounds Johnson let Hart do most of
the leading, except in the ninth round,
when with 'lefts and rights the negro
- punilshed Hart badly.
Johnson showed the best form in the
first round and landed several hard
rights on the body in the clinches. He
also drove a couple of swings home on
Hart's head. The second round was
more, lively, with Johnson showing the
best form. He smashed Hart's kidneys,
which caused the Louisville man to
gasp. Jdhnsnn landed left and eight
hooks to the jaw as the round closed.
Hart put two hard right-lefts to the heart
during the round.
Hart was aggressive in the third
round, but was unable to land any effective
Wows. Johnson kept away and
apparently did not extend himself.
The men worked into several clinchesin
the forth round and there were one
or two hot exchanges, but without
any damage.
Hart tried to work in close during the
fifth round, but Johnson blocked his
leads.
The sixth round started like a real
prize fight. Hart rushed, but Johnson
put him back with a straight left and
followed it with another, which was
the hardest blow struck during the
flght. They came into clinches, Hart
trying to get in close.
Round seven was Johnson's. He
hooked his left to Hart's jaw repeat-
edly'and as the round closed he snapped
two rights to the jaw.
The eighth and ninth rounds were
lively and Johnson's admirers thought
that the negro would surely do the
trick,His boxing superiority and
strength were evident. He did, some
qulck two-hand punching and Hart bled
freely. Hart was still aggressive and
sought to land some hard blows in the
clinches, but got several hard wallops
for his trouble.
Johnson jammed him In the corner in
the tenth round. There were some good
exchanges in the eleventh round and
Hart was still eager and game.
The negro slowed visibly in the next
three rounds and seemed perturbed at
the way Hart was assimilating punishment.
The bourbon kept wading in
and ln the fifteenth and sixteenth
rounds drove Johnson around the ring
with fierce swings to the head and
body.
Johnson showed better form in the
seventeenth round and. hammered his
opponent hard and often. Hart was
tlred at the close.
Hart was the aggressor in the last
three rounds and Kept piling in with
hard-rights to the body. Johnson acted
as though he was tired and his seconds
kept calling him to hit It up. Hart
made a target of the negro's ribs. The
fight closed with little doing and the
referee, because of Hart's aggressiveness,
gave him the decision."

[ben geoghegan]

If an old Corbett can box prime jeffries head off 18 rds Johnson can stop him. TKO in the 33rd round of a finish fight! Account of the reno fight say it was over by the 4th, everything after was optional torture courtesy Msr. Johnson

[Ezzard]

If an old Corbett can box prime jeffries head off 18 rds Johnson can stop him. TKO in the 33rd round of a finish fight! Account of the reno fight say it was over by the 4th, everything after was optional torture courtesy Msr. Johnson

I agree with the sentiment here.

Johnson was bigger, stronger, more powerful and simply better than Corbett.

It would be a hard fight and jeffries could win it but Johnson was better.

This bout is talked about a lot on the internet today.

[The Great John L]

Johnson was bigger, stronger, more powerful and simply better than Corbett.

Like most people I rate Johnson higher than Corbett, but I don’t think that anyone could definitively say that Johnson was “simply better” than Corbett. Corbett fought a different style than Johnson and was probably able to give Jeffries so much trouble because of his foot speed, which was probably better than Johnson’s. Johnson was bigger and stronger than Corbett, but a prime Jeff was also bigger and stronger than Johnson.

In relating his ring experiences, Tommy Loughran once described what it was like to spar with an aged (60+ I believe) Corbett, and basically said that Corbett was still able to move quite well, and had some moves that Loughran had never seen before. Of course it’s possible that Loughran was simply being kind in his judgment of an aging legend, but it’s also quite likely that Corbett did possess some unique skills that enabled him to perform very well against Jeff even when he was way past his prime.

[Ambling Alp]

For what it's worth, Gene Tunney also sparred with Corbett when Gentleman Jim was way past his fighting days and was surprised and very impressed with Corbett.

Having said that, the fact that Jeffries had so much trouble with Corbett is an indication that Jeffries would be in big trouble against Johnson. Though Corbett and Johnson had some similarities as fighters, they had some notable differences. It would be a a stronger indication that Johnson would beat Corbett if they were more similar.

Moreover, you can just as easily pick one fight from Johnson's career and use that as an indication that Johnson would be in trouble against Jeffries. Overall, most signs indicate that if they fought in their primes that Johnson would win but it would be a very tough fight.