Frazier vs cummings

revporl · Post by **revporl** » 29 Dec 2003, 14:17

Hiya,
Has anyone seen the frazier cummings fight. Was it close, how did frazier look? Was it any less pathetic than the Ali fights of the same time?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 Dec 2003, 02:12

didn't see it...but reliable friends,, including a couple of sports writers thought cummings won and frazier looked slow and didn't have ther aggression he showed in his better days. frazier was quoted as being very dissatisfied with his performance.

maybe somebody else will come on with more details. i can't find the newspaper reports.... buried somewhere in what i laughingly call my files.

crooked nose · Post by **crooked nose** » 30 Dec 2003, 02:34

As I recall, post-fight opinion was that Frazier had received a gift draw. He didn't have any of the speed or power of his prime.
I think Jumbo is now doing a permanent stretch behind bars.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 13 Jul 2007, 22:24

hey granberry.....if your out there can you help me understand this. Seems that Frazier didnt' have a whole lot left for ol' Jumbo by this time. Why would that be? Could it have been that he had experienced some tough fights in his career and it took a lot out of him?

If so, who would those tough fights have been with?

Just curious

your pal

Buzz

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 13 Jul 2007, 23:52

Cummings was robbed. In the 2nd round he pinned Frazier in a corner and hammered him till the referee asked Frazier if he wanted to continue. Frazier got the sympathy vote in this one.

Flump · Post by **Flump** » 19 Jul 2007, 12:43

Seamus wrote:Cummings was robbed. In the 2nd round he pinned Frazier in a corner and hammered him till the referee asked Frazier if he wanted to continue. Frazier got the sympathy vote in this one.

I watched this fight a couple of nights ago, nothing like that happened from what I could see. Frazier was lucky to get a draw as he looked to have been outworked by Cummings' John Ruiz style hit and grab tactics but he looked a lot better than Ali did against Berbick the following week, unsurprisingly.

Frazier also got rocked a couple of times but did manage to land a few solid hooks but without the same snap in his punches as before. He was also carrying a lot of spare flesh.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Jul 2007, 16:34

This was undoubtedly not only the sorriest performance of Joe Frazier's career, but one of the biggest HW robberies...Cummings easily won this fight and it was so bad that even the referee asked Frazier if he wanted to continue or not, the fight did go the 10 round distance, but was declared a draw.

There was all kind of reports where this 'match' would take place, such as on a jumbo jet, an indian reservation, etc. I think none of the commissions really wanted to see the practically blind and shop worn Frazier make a comeback of any kind...and it was solely out of sympathy in my opinion, that he got the decision.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 20 Jul 2007, 09:13

Flump wrote:
Seamus wrote:Cummings was robbed. In the 2nd round he pinned Frazier in a corner and hammered him till the referee asked Frazier if he wanted to continue. Frazier got the sympathy vote in this one.
I watched this fight a couple of nights ago, nothing like that happened from what I could see. Frazier was lucky to get a draw as he looked to have been outworked by Cummings' John Ruiz style hit and grab tactics but he looked a lot better than Ali did against Berbick the following week, unsurprisingly.

Frazier also got rocked a couple of times but did manage to land a few solid hooks but without the same snap in his punches as before. He was also carrying a lot of spare flesh.

What would have been a reasonable fight at this time was Frazier - Ali IV

I reckon Joe would have outworked him over 10 rounds to even matters up.

Frazier at 229, Ali at 237. They would have given some of todays guys a fight.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 20 Jul 2007, 14:59

Frazier at 229, Ali at 237. They would have given some of todays guys a fight.

Ali-Frazier IV I could probably buy, but judging by the Holmes fight, I'm sure Smokin' Joe would have probably knocked Ali out, if not knocked him down once or twice ending the quadology 2-2 between both men.

But are u kidding me? The 1980 Ali and Frazier giving today's guys a fight? Wat have u been smoking? If Holmes all but butchered Ali without even trying and Cummings all but stopped Frazier over 10 rounds, could you imagine what Wladimir Klitschko, Samuel Peter, Oleg Maskaev, Nicolai Valuev and do I dare say John Ruiz would do to them?

They'd get knocked out cold.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Jul 2007, 15:10

HomicideHenry wrote:
Frazier at 229, Ali at 237. They would have given some of todays guys a fight.
Ali-Frazier IV I could probably buy, but judging by the Holmes fight, I'm sure Smokin' Joe would have probably knocked Ali out, if not knocked him down once or twice ending the quadology 2-2 between both men.

But are u kidding me? The 1980 Ali and Frazier giving today's guys a fight? Wat have u been smoking? If Holmes all but butchered Ali without even trying and Cummings all but stopped Frazier over 10 rounds, could you imagine what Wladimir Klitschko, Samuel Peter, Oleg Maskaev, Nicolai Valuev and do I dare say John Ruiz would do to them?

They'd get knocked out cold.

With those versions vs today's fighters, I see Wlad and Peter stopping both of them but Berbick was a solid fighter. If that Ali could last 10 with Berbick (and even win a few rounds), I see him lasting vs Oleg, Ruiz, and Valuev (now that would be a boring fight . . Valuev vs 1981 Ali) Not sure about Joe as I have not seen Frazier-Cummings.

Remember I said "lasting"

1980 Ali and Frazier don't come close to beating any of those guys.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 20 Jul 2007, 15:30

I'm not so sure about the 'lasting' part either. Remember, Ali originally signed on to fight John Tate and then later Mike Weaver, those men hit a helluva lot harder than Holmes did and I believe had Ali fought them, the wouldn't have been so 'shy' to throw bombs like Holmes was. Holmes took it rather easy on Ali and Ali only landed 8 or 10 punches in 10 rounds, and was on the verge on being knocked out, though the whole fight had a feel of being nothing more than a glorified sparring session.

Berbick himself claims that he mostly went to the body against Ali because he figured it would do less damage and that he was hoping Ali would just go down but wouldn't. I think had Ali fought guys who didn't care about his own welfare as much as the did, I think he would have been knocked out by Holmes and by Berbick; let alone what Wlad, Peter, Maskaev, Valuev and Ruiz and others could do.

I think Wlad and Pater would stop Ali and Frazier (1980) rather early, while Maskaev and Ruiz would do it around 8-10 rounds and Valuev would probably win an easy 10 round decision dropping Frazier and Ali at least once or twice along the way and almost end in a TKO---that is if they really went out there to beat them and truly win rather than play a game of patty cake.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Jul 2007, 16:42

HomicideHenry wrote:I'm not so sure about the 'lasting' part either. Remember, Ali originally signed on to fight John Tate and then later Mike Weaver, those men hit a helluva lot harder than Holmes did and I believe had Ali fought them, the wouldn't have been so 'shy' to throw bombs like Holmes was. Holmes took it rather easy on Ali and Ali only landed 8 or 10 punches in 10 rounds, and was on the verge on being knocked out, though the whole fight had a feel of being nothing more than a glorified sparring session.

Berbick himself claims that he mostly went to the body against Ali because he figured it would do less damage and that he was hoping Ali would just go down but wouldn't. I think had Ali fought guys who didn't care about his own welfare as much as the did, I think he would have been knocked out by Holmes and by Berbick; let alone what Wlad, Peter, Maskaev, Valuev and Ruiz and others could do.

I think Wlad and Pater would stop Ali and Frazier (1980) rather early, while Maskaev and Ruiz would do it around 8-10 rounds and Valuev would probably win an easy 10 round decision dropping Frazier and Ali at least once or twice along the way and almost end in a TKO---that is if they really went out there to beat them and truly win rather than play a game of patty cake.

Oleg maybe . . .who has Ruiz ever knocked out?? I give Valuev a better chance than John Ruiz (now that I think about it more I see the Giant stopping both of them)

Regardless, Ali loses big. Look at the pre-fight interviews and footage before the Berbick fight. It is a clear as crystal that Ali was already suffering from the early stages of Parkinsons. It's kind of eerie to watch in retrospect.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 20 Jul 2007, 19:46

HomicideHenry wrote:
Frazier at 229, Ali at 237. They would have given some of todays guys a fight.
Ali-Frazier IV I could probably buy, but judging by the Holmes fight, I'm sure Smokin' Joe would have probably knocked Ali out, if not knocked him down once or twice ending the quadology 2-2 between both men.

How would Frazier look against Holmes in 1980..? Ali was rather competitive with Berbick, even if Berbick was carrying him. Ali even hurt Berbick in the 6th or 7th round. I don't know if its that clear cut, not that it really matters.

Ali and Frazier do not go the distance with Peter, Valuev, Klitschko in their 1980 incarnations.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Jul 2007, 00:07

Frazier, as was Ali (in my opinion) both washed up when they fought in the Thrilla in Manila back in 1975. It was Ali though, who could improvise to keep himself still into the game up until 1978---Frazier on the other hand couldn't improvise, and only knew one way to fight, and unfortuately most swarmers burn out by their early 30's.

Frazier would have done just as badly as Ali, in my opinion, against Holmes, but the difference being, Frazier would have thrown more punches and been more 'game'. Ali was a sitting duck the entire time, while I imagine Holmes would have landed mabe 15 punches a round to Holmes' 50-60+ punches that would land, if not more.

Frazier probably would have been taken easy on for the first few rounds, Holmes easily showing who the dominant man was, and ending the whole sideshow with a merciful KO somewhere around the 6th to 8th round. If you notice in the Ali-Holmes fight it wasn't until the 10th round that Holmes actually started throwing hard shots, at one point doubling Ali over, after the referee told Holmes to continue fighting after Holmes pleaded that the referee would stop it.

Had Holmes come in with a killer attitude, he would have stopped Ali much much earlier. Holmes just liked Ali too much to genuinely hurt him.

And who did Ruiz ever knock out? I can't really say I can name any real important names he ever stopped, but when Ruiz actually does decide to box rather than hug around, he does have decent hand speed, good power and is rather tough (that is if you forget the 19 second knockout loss to David Tua who was in his prime). I think he could have done it, if he decided to fight, rather than clinch every 20 seconds.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 21 Jul 2007, 04:05

Aside from his age Ali also had some sort of thyroid problem going into the Holmes fight. Still, I don't believe that Frazier would be much more competitive with Holmes, and I don't see Frazier KOing Ali even at that stage. Not that the fight would matter much, they were both shot. Having watched the Holmes fight a few times Ali of course looked terrible, but when I saw the Berbick fight for the first time he actually looked a bit better, at least by comparison, and made it somewhat competitive with Berbick. I don't know if Frazier could have been competitive with someone like Berbick at that stage. As I said earlier, there was even one point in the Ali-Berbick fight where it looked like Berbick almost went down on a right hand, impressive considering how many bombs he took against Holmes without getting wobbled, though obviously he took Holmes a bit more seriously.

Either way, I think both Ali and Frazier should have retired after Manila. No need for either to carry on. Frazier was never going to win a rematch with Foreman, and coming off a five year layoff to fight Cummings didn't do him any good either. We know what happened to Ali after that period, but I've also heard it said that Frazier may have suffered some brain damage because of the Cummings fight? I believe I heard that in the ESPN biography of him.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Jul 2007, 10:18

HomicideHenry wrote:
Frazier at 229, Ali at 237. They would have given some of todays guys a fight.
Ali-Frazier IV I could probably buy, but judging by the Holmes fight, I'm sure Smokin' Joe would have probably knocked Ali out, if not knocked him down once or twice ending the quadology 2-2 between both men.

But are u kidding me? The 1980 Ali and Frazier giving today's guys a fight? Wat have u been smoking? If Holmes all but butchered Ali without even trying and Cummings all but stopped Frazier over 10 rounds, could you imagine what Wladimir Klitschko, Samuel Peter, Oleg Maskaev, Nicolai Valuev and do I dare say John Ruiz would do to them?

They'd get knocked out cold.

Please.....if an in shape ready to fight Joe Frazier wallked into the ring in place of Trevor Berbick on that very day you honestly think Joe would have perservered? I'm talking in real time here...Joe Frazier with what he actually had to bring on that day in history? That's ludakrisp thinking.

(I'm aware I'm substituing the Berbick fight for the Holmes fight...but you get my point I'm sure. I just disagree strongly with your premise regarding the potential 4th fight.) But what a waste of time it would have been...on that I agree. And I agree that on that day neither would pose a threat to today's Klitschko that's also a given IMHO.

Mick Ruocco · Post by **Mick Ruocco** » 27 Jul 2007, 09:04

KO Artist wrote:
Flump wrote:
Seamus wrote:Cummings was robbed. In the 2nd round he pinned Frazier in a corner and hammered him till the referee asked Frazier if he wanted to continue. Frazier got the sympathy vote in this one.
I watched this fight a couple of nights ago, nothing like that happened from what I could see. Frazier was lucky to get a draw as he looked to have been outworked by Cummings' John Ruiz style hit and grab tactics but he looked a lot better than Ali did against Berbick the following week, unsurprisingly.

Frazier also got rocked a couple of times but did manage to land a few solid hooks but without the same snap in his punches as before. He was also carrying a lot of spare flesh.
What would have been a reasonable fight at this time was Frazier - Ali IV

I reckon Joe would have outworked him over 10 rounds to even matters up.

Frazier at 229, Ali at 237. They would have given some of todays guys a fight.

That sure would have been one hell of a spectacle.

One brain damaged guy and one half blind guy putting on a show.

Frazier would have knocked him out.

My only wish is that Holmes did, but Larry took it too easy on Ali

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 31 Jul 2007, 11:24

Frazier-Ali IV would've been bad for not only both of the fighter's health but the rest of the trilogy. I vote No for Ali-Frazier IV.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 31 Jul 2007, 13:06

I'm glad that Ali vs Frazier 4 never came off... but having said that Ali was far better against Berbick than he had been against Holmes and I dont really buy Berbicks claim to having taken it easy on Ali... Berbick often went for the body in his fights... as for Holmes taking it easy on Ali look at the head shots that he landed on him throughout the fight!... the truth is he was trying to ko Ali but couldnt... noone could ko Ali even at that stage... his chin was one of his greatest gifts but also his curse...

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 31 Jul 2007, 13:08

Ali - Frazier IV would have crippled both fighters and been an awfully sad spectacle. I am glad it never happened.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 31 Jul 2007, 13:13

KOJOE90 wrote:Ali - Frazier IV would have crippled both fighters and been an awfully sad spectacle. I am glad it never happened.

It would have been a tragedy for the sport as well.

markl · Post by **markl** » 31 Jul 2007, 13:37

Why is anyone even speculating how these aged warriors would have fared?

If you're looking for mythical matchups. Take guys at their best.

I have Frazier's career DVD set and have never watched this fight.

Ali/berbick was putrid. Ali won the 5th round and that was it. i wish I had never seen that either.

This thread has turned extrememly sad and disturbing.

Ali didn't have a thyroid condition for Holmes. he was taking diaretic's to get back to 217

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Jul 2007, 15:34

That's correct. Ali was misdiagnosed as having a thyroid disorder, but in all actuality didn't. Throw in the Parkinson's as well as the medication, he was pretty much worthless going into the Holmes fight---as for the Berbick fight, Ali wasn't on the Thyroid medication then, and yes in the 5th round he had a 'flash' of his former glories, but all in all, outside of that brief moment, it was Berbick winning virtually every moment of that fight.

As far as Holmes not taking it easy on Ali, that's absoloute bullshit. Holmes begged and pleaded that the fight to not happen saying Ali would get hurt. The fight went on anyways, he lacked a killer attitude in that fight, and even asked the ref a few times to stop it. The referee wouldn't stop it, so Holmes went for the KO in the last few remaining seconds of the 10th and doubled Ali over with body shots---had Angello Dundee let him go out for the 11th, Ali would have been either knocked out or killed.

Now had Holmes went after Ali like he did against Cooney or Cobb or some others, Ali would have been stopped in 5 rounds or less, TKO or by a genuine KO. Period!

markl · Post by **markl** » 31 Jul 2007, 17:06

HomicideHenry wrote:Frazier, as was Ali (in my opinion) both washed up when they fought in the Thrilla in Manila back in 1975. It was Ali though, who could improvise to keep himself still into the game up until 1978---Frazier on the other hand couldn't improvise, and only knew one way to fight, and unfortuately most swarmers burn out by their early 30's.

Frazier would have done just as badly as Ali, in my opinion, against Holmes, but the difference being, Frazier would have thrown more punches and been more 'game'. Ali was a sitting duck the entire time, while I imagine Holmes would have landed mabe 15 punches a round to Holmes' 50-60+ punches that would land, if not more.

Frazier probably would have been taken easy on for the first few rounds, Holmes easily showing who the dominant man was, and ending the whole sideshow with a merciful KO somewhere around the 6th to 8th round. If you notice in the Ali-Holmes fight it wasn't until the 10th round that Holmes actually started throwing hard shots, at one point doubling Ali over, after the referee told Holmes to continue fighting after Holmes pleaded that the referee would stop it.

Had Holmes come in with a killer attitude, he would have stopped Ali much much earlier. Holmes just liked Ali too much to genuinely hurt him.

And who did Ruiz ever knock out? I can't really say I can name any real important names he ever stopped, but when Ruiz actually does decide to box rather than hug around, he does have decent hand speed, good power and is rather tough (that is if you forget the 19 second knockout loss to David Tua who was in his prime). I think he could have done it, if he decided to fight, rather than clinch every 20 seconds.

Not to mention Frazier was virtually a one eyed fighter by manilla.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 31 Jul 2007, 23:33

One eyed is somewhat a compliment on Smokin' Joe, considering he had 20x100 in one eye and 20x150 (i think) in the other. He was practically blind neways even before he went into Manila...and when he fought Foreman the second time, it can be argued that the only reason the second fight went 5 rounds was because Frazier had contact lenses on...but Foreman ended up knocking one out and the other behind Joe's eye.

Fact of business....Ali and Frazier was both on the downside even before Manila, and it was more a battle of wills, rather than skills from then on out for both men.