I watched the Ali-Frazier I fight and I had it scored 8-5-2 or 145 to 141 in favor of Frazier. Any one in here have this fight with a larger margin?
Frazier probably won the fight up to by 7 points. I would not be surprised if someone in here has it between 5 or 7 points in Frazier's favor... He did enough to win the biggest fight of his career.
The Fight of the Century: Ali vs Frazier I scoring
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elmersalsa
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Goodnight, Irene
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Yeah I think it would be interesting to see peoples' cards.
I had it quite a bit closer than you did Elmer, 8-7, 145-143 for Frazier. I actually had it even going into the final round, although the last several rounds if I recall correctly were Frazier's, & the momentum was clearly with him.
Still, I scored all of the first five rounds for Ali, but from that point on Frazier got by with eight of the remaining ten rounds. I guess using your card as a barometer Elmer, I favoured Ali in some close rounds, though it was months ago I scored it so I couldn't tell which ones for the most part.
So, 8-7, 145-143, Joe Frazier.
The official scorecards (I think) were as follows...
Official #1: 8-6-1 Frazier
Official #2: 9-6 Frazier
Official #3: 11-4 Frazier
I had it quite a bit closer than you did Elmer, 8-7, 145-143 for Frazier. I actually had it even going into the final round, although the last several rounds if I recall correctly were Frazier's, & the momentum was clearly with him.
Still, I scored all of the first five rounds for Ali, but from that point on Frazier got by with eight of the remaining ten rounds. I guess using your card as a barometer Elmer, I favoured Ali in some close rounds, though it was months ago I scored it so I couldn't tell which ones for the most part.
So, 8-7, 145-143, Joe Frazier.
The official scorecards (I think) were as follows...
Official #1: 8-6-1 Frazier
Official #2: 9-6 Frazier
Official #3: 11-4 Frazier
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dempseyfire
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HomicideHenry
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I cant remember quite honestly, but I do remember in a hypothetical Marciano-Ali fight discussion I had the Frazier-Ali bout like 8 rounds Frazier, 6 generous rounds for Ali, with 1 even.
It was my opinion that a prime Marciano would have beaten the Ali of the first Frazier fight even worse than what Smokin Joe had done. Not win by a KO, but wider on points....call me crazy
It was my opinion that a prime Marciano would have beaten the Ali of the first Frazier fight even worse than what Smokin Joe had done. Not win by a KO, but wider on points....call me crazy
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HomicideHenry
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Now, now, now...you must admit I did say the Ali of the first Frazier bout. I never said a prime Ali. Ali was prepared for the likes of Quarry and Bonavena, which were lackluster wins in my opinion as Quarry hurt Ali early and the Bonavena fight was slow, boring, and you most certainly never see it on many Ali highlights.
I don't think the Ali of the first Frazier fight would have been prepared enough to not have beaten not just Marciano, but Jeffries, Dempsey, and other ATG fighters of the swarming/brawling style...Ali was in good condition, but not quite championship/elite/greatest condition when he fought Frazier.
He was tough enough yes, but he did go down for a few 'no counts' in that fight and Frazier isn't known for being a fast starter, yet he won the first few rounds rather easily...Marciano was all about upping the pace as the fight grew on. Had he been able to do what Frazier done, in dropping Ali for 'no counts', Marciano would have threw more punches, become more ferocious.
Joe was more aggressive, but this left him to be open for shots, he was busier to a point in a fight, but Marciano's punch rate averaged 85 punches a round and it wasn't unusual to see him go past 100 a round. Marciano's style of the crouch, would have worked to his benefit as it done for Frazier, maybe even more so as Marciano crouched lower.
But like I said, I ain't talking a prime Ali here. I done said in my opinion that a Marciano-Ali prime vs prime ordeal would have been competitive and close, but Ali would have won by a TKO around 12 or so rounds. As far as any other period is concerned, the Ali who fought Cooper and prior would have been knocked out, the Ali of 1975 and beyond would have been either knocked out or lost tremendously on points...its the Ali of 1972-1974, in my opinion, where the 1970's version would have possibly beaten Marciano outside of the Liston to Folley version.
I don't think the Ali of the first Frazier fight would have been prepared enough to not have beaten not just Marciano, but Jeffries, Dempsey, and other ATG fighters of the swarming/brawling style...Ali was in good condition, but not quite championship/elite/greatest condition when he fought Frazier.
He was tough enough yes, but he did go down for a few 'no counts' in that fight and Frazier isn't known for being a fast starter, yet he won the first few rounds rather easily...Marciano was all about upping the pace as the fight grew on. Had he been able to do what Frazier done, in dropping Ali for 'no counts', Marciano would have threw more punches, become more ferocious.
Joe was more aggressive, but this left him to be open for shots, he was busier to a point in a fight, but Marciano's punch rate averaged 85 punches a round and it wasn't unusual to see him go past 100 a round. Marciano's style of the crouch, would have worked to his benefit as it done for Frazier, maybe even more so as Marciano crouched lower.
But like I said, I ain't talking a prime Ali here. I done said in my opinion that a Marciano-Ali prime vs prime ordeal would have been competitive and close, but Ali would have won by a TKO around 12 or so rounds. As far as any other period is concerned, the Ali who fought Cooper and prior would have been knocked out, the Ali of 1975 and beyond would have been either knocked out or lost tremendously on points...its the Ali of 1972-1974, in my opinion, where the 1970's version would have possibly beaten Marciano outside of the Liston to Folley version.
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The Great John L
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He did? Ringo definitely had Ali hurt in their fight but I don’t recall Ali ever being hurt against Quarry. Does anybody else have the same opinion?HomicideHenry wrote:…Quarry hurt Ali early…
What are saying here? That Ali went down from a punch some time other than the 15th round? I don’t recall this.HomicideHenry wrote:He was tough enough yes, but he did go down for a few 'no counts' in that fight…
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dempseyfire
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???HomicideHenry wrote:Now, now, now...you must admit I did say the Ali of the first Frazier bout. I never said a prime Ali. Ali was prepared for the likes of Quarry and Bonavena, which were lackluster wins in my opinion as Quarry hurt Ali early and the Bonavena fight was slow, boring, and you most certainly never see it on many Ali highlights.
I don't think the Ali of the first Frazier fight would have been prepared enough to not have beaten not just Marciano, but Jeffries, Dempsey, and other ATG fighters of the swarming/brawling style...Ali was in good condition, but not quite championship/elite/greatest condition when he fought Frazier.
He was tough enough yes, but he did go down for a few 'no counts' in that fight and Frazier isn't known for being a fast starter, yet he won the first few rounds rather easily...Marciano was all about upping the pace as the fight grew on. Had he been able to do what Frazier done, in dropping Ali for 'no counts', Marciano would have threw more punches, become more ferocious.
Joe was more aggressive, but this left him to be open for shots, he was busier to a point in a fight, but Marciano's punch rate averaged 85 punches a round and it wasn't unusual to see him go past 100 a round. Marciano's style of the crouch, would have worked to his benefit as it done for Frazier, maybe even more so as Marciano crouched lower.
But like I said, I ain't talking a prime Ali here. I done said in my opinion that a Marciano-Ali prime vs prime ordeal would have been competitive and close, but Ali would have won by a TKO around 12 or so rounds. As far as any other period is concerned, the Ali who fought Cooper and prior would have been knocked out, the Ali of 1975 and beyond would have been either knocked out or lost tremendously on points...its the Ali of 1972-1974, in my opinion, where the 1970's version would have possibly beaten Marciano outside of the Liston to Folley version.
Quarry NEVER hurt Ali in either of their fights . . don't know what you are smoking.
It's pretty much concensus opinion that Frazier LOST the first 3 rounds to Ali, clearly. Frazier in fact lost the first 3-4 rounds in all 3 of his fights with Ali.
Marciano crouched lower than Frazier but also wasn't as fast. As for Joe being 'open' . . Marciano was about as much. Does this mean I don't give Marciano a shot vs Ali? No, but I don't see Marciano having much in terms of stylistic advantages vs Ali over Frazier.
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Ambling Alp
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John L-Ali did go down for a second from a slip earlier in the fight. This happened once, not a few times. Detractors of Ali occasionally try to say that it should have been ruled a knockdown. It was correctly ruled a slip.
Homocide-The Ali that was knocked down by Cooper would have been knocked out by Marciano? Come on. I thought you were past this nonsense.
Quarry never hurt Ali.
Frazier won the first few rounds easily in their first fight? Umm, no he didn't. Ali won the first two.
There is no such thing as being dropped for "no counts".
Homocide, I thought you were over your obsession with ripping Ali. :(
Homocide-The Ali that was knocked down by Cooper would have been knocked out by Marciano? Come on. I thought you were past this nonsense.
Quarry never hurt Ali.
Frazier won the first few rounds easily in their first fight? Umm, no he didn't. Ali won the first two.
There is no such thing as being dropped for "no counts".
Homocide, I thought you were over your obsession with ripping Ali. :(
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HomicideHenry
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Quarry hurt Ali to the body early on in the fight, he bulled him into the corner and Ali doubled over. I remember this.
Maybe it was a slip, but to me it looked much like a knockdown.
And whose to say a Foreman, Shavers, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis couldn't have knocked out the Ali who fought Cooper and before? To m knowledge most of the men Ali fought before Cooper and Jones were mostly hand picked dead men and over the hill ex ex champions like Archie Moore.
Ali wasn't tested, in my opinion, until he fought the likes of George Chuvalo; who was the only man who wasnt scared/intimidated or bedazzled or hurt by Ali. Ali of course said Chuvalo was his toughest fight as champion (during his first reign).
Take Chuvalo's toughness, think Dempsey's style, and think somewhere among the Baer/Louis/Jefferies level of hitting power, then throw in an unwavering heart and desire and ferocity and conditioning level that has seldom been seen since...then you have Rocky Marciano.
Marciano's style was beatable, yes, and there was many an occassion where he almost lost on a TKO...but when the situation called for it, he is what you could call a 'clutch fighter'...he would go from one level into another, like he done against Ezzard Charles in their second fight.
Charles was definately no Ali, but to me, if Chuvalo was Ali's toughest fight at that time as champion...then whose to say?
I think almost everyone is at least in agreement that Marciano was better than Chuvalo and the majority of Ali's opponents (save possibly three: Liston, Foreman and Frazier).
BUT, we were talking Cooper and prior, before he (Ali) was champion. What Alp suggests is that Marciano is so inferior that he could not have beaten the pre champion Muhammad Ali, which I take to mean Ali at any stage of those years before he won the title...so the Ali who got dropped by Sonny Banks could beat Marciano, so the Ali who got hurt with body shots by Charlie Powell could beat Marciano, the Ali who knocked out Moore in four rounds could beat Marciano...
Is that what you're telling me Alp?
As far as 'ripping' Ali, I ain't, I am just pointing out that I think there was alot of other champions, including Marciano, who could have beaten the Ali of the first Frazier fight...I done said before that a prime Ali in my opinion would have had a very tough, close, competitive fight with Marciano but would have won on a TKO in 12 or so rounds.
I done proved before in the ALI VS THE HEAVYWEIGHT GREATS thread I made, that there are very few Heavyweight champions in my mind, who could have beaten Ali, and those were Jack Johnson, Larry Holmes, and possibly Evander Holyfield. I aint knocking Ali, I just am stating that maybe the Frazier victory isnt as great as its made out to be, as Ali wasnt quite ready.
Not to push Frazier down or anything, but I never quite saw the man as a top 10 champion at HW, maybe top 15.
Maybe it was a slip, but to me it looked much like a knockdown.
And whose to say a Foreman, Shavers, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis couldn't have knocked out the Ali who fought Cooper and before? To m knowledge most of the men Ali fought before Cooper and Jones were mostly hand picked dead men and over the hill ex ex champions like Archie Moore.
Ali wasn't tested, in my opinion, until he fought the likes of George Chuvalo; who was the only man who wasnt scared/intimidated or bedazzled or hurt by Ali. Ali of course said Chuvalo was his toughest fight as champion (during his first reign).
Take Chuvalo's toughness, think Dempsey's style, and think somewhere among the Baer/Louis/Jefferies level of hitting power, then throw in an unwavering heart and desire and ferocity and conditioning level that has seldom been seen since...then you have Rocky Marciano.
Marciano's style was beatable, yes, and there was many an occassion where he almost lost on a TKO...but when the situation called for it, he is what you could call a 'clutch fighter'...he would go from one level into another, like he done against Ezzard Charles in their second fight.
Charles was definately no Ali, but to me, if Chuvalo was Ali's toughest fight at that time as champion...then whose to say?
I think almost everyone is at least in agreement that Marciano was better than Chuvalo and the majority of Ali's opponents (save possibly three: Liston, Foreman and Frazier).
BUT, we were talking Cooper and prior, before he (Ali) was champion. What Alp suggests is that Marciano is so inferior that he could not have beaten the pre champion Muhammad Ali, which I take to mean Ali at any stage of those years before he won the title...so the Ali who got dropped by Sonny Banks could beat Marciano, so the Ali who got hurt with body shots by Charlie Powell could beat Marciano, the Ali who knocked out Moore in four rounds could beat Marciano...
Is that what you're telling me Alp?
As far as 'ripping' Ali, I ain't, I am just pointing out that I think there was alot of other champions, including Marciano, who could have beaten the Ali of the first Frazier fight...I done said before that a prime Ali in my opinion would have had a very tough, close, competitive fight with Marciano but would have won on a TKO in 12 or so rounds.
I done proved before in the ALI VS THE HEAVYWEIGHT GREATS thread I made, that there are very few Heavyweight champions in my mind, who could have beaten Ali, and those were Jack Johnson, Larry Holmes, and possibly Evander Holyfield. I aint knocking Ali, I just am stating that maybe the Frazier victory isnt as great as its made out to be, as Ali wasnt quite ready.
Not to push Frazier down or anything, but I never quite saw the man as a top 10 champion at HW, maybe top 15.
Perhaps it was his toughest fight during the first reign, but he won virtually every round.HomicideHenry wrote:Quarry hurt Ali to the body early on in the fight, he bulled him into the corner and Ali doubled over. I remember this.
Maybe it was a slip, but to me it looked much like a knockdown.
And whose to say a Foreman, Shavers, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis couldn't have knocked out the Ali who fought Cooper and before? To m knowledge most of the men Ali fought before Cooper and Jones were mostly hand picked dead men and over the hill ex ex champions like Archie Moore.
Ali wasn't tested, in my opinion, until he fought the likes of George Chuvalo; who was the only man who wasnt scared/intimidated or bedazzled or hurt by Ali. Ali of course said Chuvalo was his toughest fight as champion (during his first reign).
Take Chuvalo's toughness, think Dempsey's style, and think somewhere among the Baer/Louis/Jefferies level of hitting power, then throw in an unwavering heart and desire and ferocity and conditioning level that has seldom been seen since...then you have Rocky Marciano.
Marciano's style was beatable, yes, and there was many an occassion where he almost lost on a TKO...but when the situation called for it, he is what you could call a 'clutch fighter'...he would go from one level into another, like he done against Ezzard Charles in their second fight.
Charles was definately no Ali, but to me, if Chuvalo was Ali's toughest fight at that time as champion...then whose to say?
I think almost everyone is at least in agreement that Marciano was better than Chuvalo and the majority of Ali's opponents (save possibly three: Liston, Foreman and Frazier).
BUT, we were talking Cooper and prior, before he (Ali) was champion. What Alp suggests is that Marciano is so inferior that he could not have beaten the pre champion Muhammad Ali, which I take to mean Ali at any stage of those years before he won the title...so the Ali who got dropped by Sonny Banks could beat Marciano, so the Ali who got hurt with body shots by Charlie Powell could beat Marciano, the Ali who knocked out Moore in four rounds could beat Marciano...
Is that what you're telling me Alp?
As far as 'ripping' Ali, I ain't, I am just pointing out that I think there was alot of other champions, including Marciano, who could have beaten the Ali of the first Frazier fight...I done said before that a prime Ali in my opinion would have had a very tough, close, competitive fight with Marciano but would have won on a TKO in 12 or so rounds.
I done proved before in the ALI VS THE HEAVYWEIGHT GREATS thread I made, that there are very few Heavyweight champions in my mind, who could have beaten Ali, and those were Jack Johnson, Larry Holmes, and possibly Evander Holyfield. I aint knocking Ali, I just am stating that maybe the Frazier victory isnt as great as its made out to be, as Ali wasnt quite ready.
Not to push Frazier down or anything, but I never quite saw the man as a top 10 champion at HW, maybe top 15.
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The Great John L
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Thanks, that was my point. I'm really not sure why I bothered replying to his post.Ambling Alp wrote:John L-Ali did go down for a second from a slip earlier in the fight. This happened once, not a few times. Detractors of Ali occasionally try to say that it should have been ruled a knockdown. It was correctly ruled a slip.
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Ambling Alp
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Yes, you probably never gave it a second thought. It was a slip. There was clearly a few seconds since he had been hit with a punch. homocide of course wants to believe that it was a legitimate knockdown.
It does appear that he is backing off his earlier comment about it happening a few times. That simply didn't happen.
Homocide, your last post was all over the place.
First, I guess, it depends on what you call "hurting an opponent". In the first Quarry fight, Quarry did back up Ali, but Ali was certainly not in any serious trouble. Same with Charlie Powell for that matter.
You are now arguing that Ali in his pre-title days wasn't as good as a prime Marciano? Well I guess it depends on how early in his career you are talking about. The Cooper fight was his last fight before fighting Liston. He was probably almost as good as when he fought Liston.
You are completely overblowing what happened in the Cooper fight. Ali completely dominated the entire fight outside of the knockdown. The knockdown (which for some reason is seen as the Holy Grail for anti-Ali people) wasn't devastating at all. Ali got up immediately and was fine. There could have been 2 minutes left to go in the round and it wouldn't have made any difference.
Holmes got knocked down by Snipes. Marciano got knocked down by Walcott and Moore. Joe Louis got knocked down by several inferior fighters. It happens.
Ali wasn't tested until he fought Chuvalo?
You have to be kidding. He had already beaten Liston and Patterson.
Chuvalo did go the distance against Ali,and to his credit gave a great effort. However, it certainly wasn't a close fight. Chuvalo won about 3 rounds out of 15. Marciano hit hard harder than Chuvalo, but that isn't going to help him against Ali.
If you want to say that Marciano is his absolute prime was better than Ali in his first couple of years, fine. So what? How would Marciano in his first couple of years do against a prime Ali?
You are handpicking a few snippets from Ali's inexperienced time before he reached his prime and making more of it than it was. Would the Marciano who got a very disputed decison over Ted Lowry (who didn't even have a career winning record) and barely won the rematch, beat Ali or Frazier?
That you don't think Frazier was Top 10, "maybe Top 15" is absolutely mindboggling. He is certainly Top 10, and you can make a serious arguement that he is Top 5. You are seriously underrating how well he fought against Ali in their first fight, and throughout most of his career for that matter. He was just as good offensively as Marciano and was much harder to hit.
It does appear that he is backing off his earlier comment about it happening a few times. That simply didn't happen.
Homocide, your last post was all over the place.
First, I guess, it depends on what you call "hurting an opponent". In the first Quarry fight, Quarry did back up Ali, but Ali was certainly not in any serious trouble. Same with Charlie Powell for that matter.
You are now arguing that Ali in his pre-title days wasn't as good as a prime Marciano? Well I guess it depends on how early in his career you are talking about. The Cooper fight was his last fight before fighting Liston. He was probably almost as good as when he fought Liston.
You are completely overblowing what happened in the Cooper fight. Ali completely dominated the entire fight outside of the knockdown. The knockdown (which for some reason is seen as the Holy Grail for anti-Ali people) wasn't devastating at all. Ali got up immediately and was fine. There could have been 2 minutes left to go in the round and it wouldn't have made any difference.
Holmes got knocked down by Snipes. Marciano got knocked down by Walcott and Moore. Joe Louis got knocked down by several inferior fighters. It happens.
Ali wasn't tested until he fought Chuvalo?
You have to be kidding. He had already beaten Liston and Patterson.Chuvalo did go the distance against Ali,and to his credit gave a great effort. However, it certainly wasn't a close fight. Chuvalo won about 3 rounds out of 15. Marciano hit hard harder than Chuvalo, but that isn't going to help him against Ali.
If you want to say that Marciano is his absolute prime was better than Ali in his first couple of years, fine. So what? How would Marciano in his first couple of years do against a prime Ali?
You are handpicking a few snippets from Ali's inexperienced time before he reached his prime and making more of it than it was. Would the Marciano who got a very disputed decison over Ted Lowry (who didn't even have a career winning record) and barely won the rematch, beat Ali or Frazier?
That you don't think Frazier was Top 10, "maybe Top 15" is absolutely mindboggling. He is certainly Top 10, and you can make a serious arguement that he is Top 5. You are seriously underrating how well he fought against Ali in their first fight, and throughout most of his career for that matter. He was just as good offensively as Marciano and was much harder to hit.
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Goodnight, Irene
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You do not put smelling salts under the nose of a fighter if they are absolutely fine. Ali was, as he put it, dazed. Ali got up fast against Cooper, but that proves little. Judah got up fast against Tszyu.
It was a strange thing. Ali didn't look hurt for a moment. The punch seemed quite innocuous (though I wasn't on the receiving end.) However, Ali was hurt. There's no arguing he wasn't, his confusion is the only reason the cut glove occurred.
I don't think that knockdown counts for much. Ali was yet to grow into his skin. He still looked like a Light-Heavy. Look at him there & then look at his physique, co-ordination & confidence at the time of the Liston rematch & first-up fight with Patterson. Massive difference.
Btw, Marciano was not as quick as Frazier. He was not as precise. He cut & bled terribly, & failed to produce Frazier's punch output & overall offensive tempo.
Ali would slice Marciano to ribbons.
It was a strange thing. Ali didn't look hurt for a moment. The punch seemed quite innocuous (though I wasn't on the receiving end.) However, Ali was hurt. There's no arguing he wasn't, his confusion is the only reason the cut glove occurred.
I don't think that knockdown counts for much. Ali was yet to grow into his skin. He still looked like a Light-Heavy. Look at him there & then look at his physique, co-ordination & confidence at the time of the Liston rematch & first-up fight with Patterson. Massive difference.
Btw, Marciano was not as quick as Frazier. He was not as precise. He cut & bled terribly, & failed to produce Frazier's punch output & overall offensive tempo.
Ali would slice Marciano to ribbons.
ali was more than one level above marciano. marciano couldnt of touched any version of ali after about 63. to say a prime marciano will beat a very young ali is stupid and flawed as already said once ali grew into himself as a heavyweight he was the best heavyweight ever.... on a different note i find it kind of funny that the invincible liston, tyson, foreman, dempsey and the alike all lost but one of the most unskilled heavyweight champions ever never did. and anyway if ali didnt fold to foremans punches he wouldnt to marciano's