Holyfield's all-time ranking - what's he done

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 06 Jan 2004, 07:15

I was so annoyed I felt it deserved it's own thread.

Why does Holyfield figure so highly on all your lists?

The only "great" he ever beat was Tyson (IMO not a "great" at all) he lost the series with Bowe, Lewis and all his "great" non-tyson bouts weren't at Heavyweight.

He is/was a fouling, philandering, un-sporting, hypocrite and has no place amongst such illuminatii.

"The Overcomer" indeed, I mean, that's not even a real word!!!!

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 06 Jan 2004, 07:19

I've debated this topic so many times I will try to stay out of it, except to add that those who rate Holyfield so highly can't look objectively at the whole picture and get it out of their head that there is a distinct difference between 'favourite' fighter and 'best' fighter.

It's like rating Aturo Gatti as an all-time great Light-Welter. Just because he thrills you it doesn't mean he is one of the best.

Rated solely as a Heavyweight, Holyfield merits a top 25 place I guess but those who rate him above Lewis astound me.

Holyfield is brave, an over-acheiver and a very very good fighter and there could even be justification for having him high up on a P4P all-time list but not on a Heavweight one.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 06 Jan 2004, 07:35

Goz wrote:I've debated this topic so many times I will try to stay out of it, except to add that those who rate Holyfield so highly can't look objectively at the whole picture and get it out of their head that there is a distinct difference between 'favourite' fighter and 'best' fighter.

It's like rating Aturo Gatti as an all-time great Light-Welter. Just because he thrills you it doesn't mean he is one of the best.

Rated solely as a Heavyweight, Holyfield merits a top 25 place I guess but those who rate him above Lewis astound me.

Holyfield is brave, an over-acheiver and a very very good fighter and there could even be justification for having him high up on a P4P all-time list but not on a Heavweight one.

Thank you Goz

You are an incredibly perceptive and knowledgeable chap - you must be -- you agree with me!

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Jan 2004, 07:52

Lewis has been a more successful heavyweight. Whether or not he is a greater fighter than Holyfield depends on how you define the word great.

What is the criteria for being a great fighter? Lewis's awful KO losses have to hurt him surely.

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:03

Mine was only a quick list but even then I only just allowed Holy in at 10th.

I think it is worse to have Dempsey in than Holyfield.

Saying that Holyfield has done great things and had great fights but whether he is a great fight is debatable.

HH

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:10

All these lists are meaningless anyway. For all we know Dempsey would've given Lewis the beating of his life. The closest Lewis came to facing that kind of sustained raw aggression was Ray Mercer and he didn't exactly breeze through that did he.

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:17

Please tell me you dont really believe that Kilburn????

HH

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:19

Kilburn wrote:Lewis has been a more successful heavyweight. Whether or not he is a greater fighter than Holyfield depends on how you define the word great.

What is the criteria for being a great fighter? Lewis's awful KO losses have to hurt him surely.

Lewis's KO losses are also raised many times.

And I guess it depends on which side of the fence you rest your posterior.

To me it seems when Holyfield is lauded as an all-time great people give much credit for him coming back from getting walloped by Bowe to beat Tyson and also being knocked nearly sensless by fighters like Bert Cooper.

Yet when Lewis's KO defeats are evaluated the fact that he came back to convincingly avenge them is neither here nor there, it's seen as a negative?

PS - This is the 2nd time I typed this message out, I did it the first time, click on Post Reply and got a 'invalid session' message, when I clicked Back on my browser the message I had typed was gone! Arrrggghhh!!!

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:22

I get invalid session all the time on this site when im at home so can very rarely post.

Wonder if its anything to do with me using AOL??

HH

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:25

Goz wrote:To me it seems when Holyfield is lauded as an all-time great people give much credit for him coming back from getting walloped by Bowe to beat Tyson and also being knocked nearly sensless by fighters like Bert Cooper.

Yet when Lewis's KO defeats are evaluated the fact that he came back to convincingly avenge them is neither here nor there, it's seen as a negative?

Lewis avenged both his KO defeats sure, but I credit Holyfield a lot more for coming back during the fight against the likes of Cooper (who caught him with a flat out right hand to the jaw) rather than going away for 8 weeks to prepare all over again for a second chance.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:26

Hardhitters11 wrote:

Please tell me you dont really believe that Kilburn????

HH

I guess you don't really rate Dempsey then HH. Why is that?

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:52

Kilburn wrote:
Hardhitters11 wrote:

Please tell me you dont really believe that Kilburn????

HH
I guess you don't really rate Dempsey then HH. Why is that?

Alot of them are really down on Dempsey cos he was so little compared to the moderns - regardless of the fact that he beat some real monsters in his day Willard to name but one was as big as a modern and Dempsey really smashed him up.

I think people underestimate both his ferocity and speed - even on the B & W footage you can see his speed and combinations.

I reckon Dempsey (had he been around today) would have been a nightmare and just the kind of guy to give Lewis fits - small, quick, hard-hitter. + if Dempsey was around today he'd have been about Holyfield's size.

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 08:53

I do rate him i was just exaggerating a litte for effect!!

H would never fight Lewis anyway cos Lewis is black and we all know that would have meant Dempsey would have run a mile.

Dempsey was knocked on his arse by fighters as little as 5'9 fireman flynn so a right hand from Lewis would have probably killed him.

I have always felt Dempsey is one of the most over-rated fighters in the history of the division.

I do like him though and have got a fair few of his fights on tape but he was far to crude and scrappy for the likes of Lewis.

HH

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 06 Jan 2004, 09:08

I've seen very little footage of Dempsey so won't get drawn into that one.

I've seen every single fight of Lennox Lewis's professional career and I would say haven't missed more than a handful of Holyfield's so I will talk all day on that topic!!

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 09:16

Its all opinion anyway there is no right or wrong!

Only what an individual perceives to be right and wrong.

HH

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 06 Jan 2004, 09:23

Hardhitters11 wrote:Its all opinion anyway there is no right or wrong!

Only what an individual perceives to be right and wrong.

HH

Except when I'm right...

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 09:33

Oh of course but that goes without saying!!

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 06 Jan 2004, 10:13

Lets not forget, that Holyfield 'ruled' over a poor heavyweight division in my opinion.

A finished iron mike, Riddick bowe, bert cooper, 42 yr old larry holmes a plus 40 foreman, and lennox lewis.

He has done well, and is an over achiever, but i dislike his dirtyness, and feel that he is perhaps over-rated, he is the heavyweight of the 90's imo, but that would not get him in my top 10.

The way he struggled with an pensioner in Holmes, shows the gulf between him, and a real all time great.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 06 Jan 2004, 10:22

Hardhitters11 wrote:I get invalid session all the time on this site when im at home so can very rarely post.

Wonder if its anything to do with me using AOL??

HH

SAME HERE!!! I have AOL and i also get that, the trick is to open a seperate Internet Explorer box and use that instead. I keep my AOL box open to check e mail and stuff and sometimes to check fighters records on Boxrec so i don't look a complete idiot when i make my posts!

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 06 Jan 2004, 10:31

steve689 wrote:
Hardhitters11 wrote:I get invalid session all the time on this site when im at home so can very rarely post.

Wonder if its anything to do with me using AOL??

HH
SAME HERE!!! I have AOL and i also get that, the trick is to open a seperate Internet Explorer box and use that instead. I keep my AOL box open to check e mail and stuff and sometimes to check fighters records on Boxrec so i don't look a complete idiot when i make my posts!

Cool cheers Steve I will try doing that then.

HH

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Jan 2004, 10:59

I'd consider Holyfields fights with Cooper, Qawi 1, Tyson 1 and Bowe 1 "great" performances, with Bowe 2 & 3 and Dokes not too far behind.

While Lewis has been a more successful heavyweight statistically he can't match Holyfield for my interpretation of greatness. Had Lewis not enjoyed such a weight advantage to keep him in the rematch with Evander we wouldn't even be discussing this now.

Lugh · Post by **Lugh** » 06 Jan 2004, 11:44

Kilburn wrote:I'd consider Holyfields fights with Cooper, Qawi 1, Tyson 1 and Bowe 1 "great" performances, with Bowe 2 & 3 and Dokes not too far behind. .

Beating Smoking Bert!!!! If that was a "great" performance then I am English - Holyfield nearly blows it against a mediocre near-journeyman - How was that Great?

Qawi wasn't at Heavyweight.

Tyson - OK - But history has served to put Tyson's position as an all-timer questionable - beaten by Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis after all.

Bowe? you neglect the fact that he then got HAMMERED by Bowe - TWICE!!!!!!

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 06 Jan 2004, 12:15

Lugh wrote:
Kilburn wrote:I'd consider Holyfields fights with Cooper, Qawi 1, Tyson 1 and Bowe 1 "great" performances, with Bowe 2 & 3 and Dokes not too far behind. .
Beating Smoking Bert!!!! If that was a "great" performance then I am English - Holyfield nearly blows it against a mediocre near-journeyman - How was that Great?

Qawi wasn't at Heavyweight.

Tyson - OK - But history has served to put Tyson's position as an all-timer questionable - beaten by Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis after all.

Bowe? you neglect the fact that he then got HAMMERED by Bowe - TWICE!!!!!!

You forgot to rib him about Dokes

A.Will · Post by **A.Will** » 06 Jan 2004, 12:33

All Holy has really done in terms of great heaveyweight performance is beat Bowe once and beat Tyson. Surely he cannot be ranked above Lewis I don't think I would even put him above Bowe.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Jan 2004, 12:59

Lugh wrote:Beating Smoking Bert!!!! If that was a "great" performance then I am English - Holyfield nearly blows it against a mediocre near-journeyman - How was that Great?

It was a great performance because Evander got nailed by a flush right hand (next you'll be telling me Cooper couldn't punch) and was badly hurt only to come back with his own near fight-ending assault before the round was even over. POWERS OF RECOVERY. A very important attribute to look for when you're working out whether or not to call a fighter great or not. For Holyfield to step up from cruiserweight and prove he could absorb a shot like that is evidence of greatness.

Lugh wrote: Qawi wasn't at Heavyweight.

No shit Einstein. I've already admitted Lewis is the more successful heavyweight. This is about who is the greater fighter.

Lugh wrote: Tyson - OK - But history has served to put Tyson's position as an all-timer questionable - beaten by Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis after all.

Audley friggin Harrison would've stood a decent chance against the version of Tyson that Lewis beat. The fight was a sad joke. NOTHING like what Holyfield had to take on.

Lugh wrote: Bowe? you neglect the fact that he then got HAMMERED by Bowe - TWICE!!!!!!

In your excitment you forgot to engage brain. I'm talking about Bowe 1 which was undeniably a great performance from a man giving away what 40lbs +. Next time out he beats the guy. God knows what you're on about!!

Make that 30lbs (Bowe wasn't always a fat lump) but it's still a lot of weight to give away when your opponent can fight so well inside and outside.