Did Hatton waste his peak? Is he 3 years past it already?

[DavidPayne]

We used to speak frequently of the possibility Ricky Hatton had wasted much of his prime in the 2003-2004 period on fighting second and third rate opponents.

He looked mentally and physically jaded versus the South American, Carlos Virchis? - soon after he got an eliminator and then Kostya Tszyu. We discussed at length how his style didn't equal longevity and that his famed stamina would unravel sooner rather than later given his between fight habits.

The Tszyu performance consigned much of this to the history books, he was 27 and at his peak. However, since then he's delivered three poorly executed performances versus Maussa (when he was cut for his over-eagerness and very wild), Urango (when he was poor to watch and held on when he was blowing late) and Collazo (a terrible management decision to put him in at 147 mid-camp and again he nearly came unstuck).

Again questions are asked of his habits and ability to deliver.

Jose Castillo comes in, looks jaded versus NJoudo and is broken down in 4, not offering time for Hatton to show how well conditioned he remains for 12 rounds or how much output he's able to maintain.

A 14 week camp and his third fight in a year offers hope that activity may prove more productive for his management of weight, his timing and his ability to throw combinations - another art missing in the past 3-4 performances.

Now, against Mayweather - the best fighter on the planet - he's unable to sustain his output, is brave and courageous but cannot throw clusters of shots, relies only on leaping in with single shots to close the gap.

Once more, you have to wonder whether Mayweather simply is the elite once in a lifetime talent we suspect he is and not matter what tactic or condition Hatton was in - he would have answered it. Or whether Hatton is not what he was.

But I wonder whether in retrospect, Hatton is already 2-3 years past his peak? And whether the discussion of whether he wasted his peak in the two years preceding the Tszyu victory and the year or two following it with mediocre opponents needs resurrecting?

Obviously, other factors - above and beyond Mayweather's brilliance - like the weight jump must be considered. But such is the age and performance of Tszyu and Castillo at the points he fought them I fear his career, if he fails to beat say a Witter or a Diaz at 140 will forever be tainted or undermined.

McGuigan is often described as fortunate to make the HOF because Pedroza was old when he got him, but he does have Bernard Taylor on there too. I suspect when we look back, if we take away the meaningless baubles, Hatton may find his career is reviewed somewhere around the Hamed-McGuigan end of the top ten of post war British fighters as opposed to the Lennox Lewis-Ken Buchanan end.

He may be a box-office phenomenon, he may be like-able and he's undoubtedly a brave and terrific fighter but from a week ago being described as the "best British fighter ever" to the "best European fighter ever" by some wise opinions, to me he remains a long way shy of those types of accolades.

And I fear the reason he isn't, despite his notable achievements, solid at the top end of the list I mention is because he's no longer capable of the performance he was in 2005 or even 2003, when still relatively green in world terms.

This isn't to say he wont return and win titles at 140, because I think he will. But I don't think he's the crowd pleaser he was, I don't think can execute on tactics as he could, I don't think he throws combinations like he did and I don't think he has the 36 minute engine he did. Despite all the protestations to the contrary from the 24/7 coverage.

Billy Graham, who i admire greatly and is a very, very sage opinion on these things has maintained he believes Ricky is still at his physical peak. And nobody knows better than him.

But from my humble sofa. I'm far less sure.

I also cannot see how Hatton can resurrect the motivation for IBF bauble fights at 140 either. If he loses that quality or urge too, a boxing ring isn't the place to be.

That's why I believe he should retire. Unless Junior Witter provides the motivation to summon one last effort.

And it is either my fickle nature or the a rare moment of clarity in the face of the overwhelming hoopla that preceded his effort versus Mayweather, that I think he could lose to Witter.

Maybe, the image of Hatton on the floor is too stark and fresh, maybe I've reformed my opinion too quickly. But I think the evidence of a prolonged decline in performance is there if we stand back and look at it without the warmth and favouritism Hatton's personality engenders in most of us.

What a load of old waffle eh?

[johnswan1]

Well said David. I agree that Hatton did end up wasting much of his prime. There were match ups he could have taken against Harris, Judah, Gatti and Mitchell at times when they had something left but he was being matched too carefully. It could be alleged that SN held Ricky back during his best years, but at the same time they need to be credited for making him the attraction he is today. I think ultimately the path Ricky took was the best he could have. As a result he ended up the champion of the Light Welter division (more from outstaying the others, as opposed to beating them) and got a crack at the pound for pound best in the world, a crack (and payday) he maybe wouldn't have got had he lost to a Mitchell or Harris a few years back.

At his best I don't think he would have beaten Mayweather but I do believe the tactics he used against Tszyu have been used in every fight since then, which has been ugly to watch.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Hatton seems to have become more one dimensional since the Tszyu victory, abandoning the jab as a way into range, and relying more on head shots than body shots.

Perhaps this is a case of not being able to do what he did against lesser fighters against the better fighters in the division, getting intoxicated with his own power and aggression, or not having the same flexibility or agility he did a few years ago.

I'm not sure which.

[rhino222]

ive said the same all along david but been up against the unbiased spud etc.

i thought hatton peaked v kostya but in reality it may have even been before then. the lateral movement on the inside has now gone, the vicious volleys of body punches from all angles have gone....and i cant even remember when we last saw them, it was certainly before kostya.

witter, im convinced, would wipe the floor with the static headed hatton.

[johnswan1]

I agree. I can see Ricky diving in and getting KO'd with a huge counter from Witter. It would be interesting though to see how Witter fights when he's smothered.

[rhino222]

witter would not stand still to be smothered, but shit, i shudder to think what a witter uppercut would do to hatton.

[Autobarn]

witter would not stand still to be smothered, but shit, i shudder to think what a witter uppercut would do to hatton.

it might leave him in Harris-land!

[Shirow]

It does appear to be the case. Hatton's last impressive boxing displays were against Oliveira, Tackie & Phillips. At the time i thought his mauling, spoiling tactics against Tsyzu was just because he was so fired up that the boxing suffered.

He has used the same tactics in almost every fight since. It occurred to me that as he has fought less often his training camps are about working hard to drop weight and get in shape and his fighting style has followed. All intensity and strength and little skill.

Part of it is also that he is an overachiever and can't outbox opponents at the level he has reached but he can outstrength and outlast them.

The ricky of old who threw combinations, used his feet more to bounce in and out of range and to find angles and moved his head more would haved fared better on Saturday.

[The Blade]

The Ricky of old would have fared better. So would a Ricky who keeps himself in shape all the time. But there is little point dealing with ifs and buts. He has now made an enormnous amount of money, and should think long and hard about the future. In the unlikely event I had ever been invited to have been his manager, I would have counselled against the Mayweather fight now, simply because anyone who knew boxing knew where the odds were stacked. He could have taken Malignaggi, for example, and still had the option of Mayweather next summer. However, if he really did get 20 million dollars - as one paper suggested today - then maybe it is a matter of seizing the moment. Why face Cotto, as has been suggested, when he would in all probability lose? He doesn't need it. Also, if Mayweather hurt him, Cotto could do worse because he is no scientist in the ring, but a slugger. I know Ray is well aware of that, which is why they have never shown any intention of going down that route. If Ricky wants a win, Mallignaggi is an option, though he would never get 20 mill for that. Otherwise, after a time out, why not De La Hoya. The Golden Boy is an wonderful self publicist, and a itching at the chance to get a toe hold in Britain as a promoter one way or another. He is now 58 years old, and is not what he once was, and is quite capable of making the level of mayhem - witness his 'fight' with PBF - that would not upset even the most prudish of elderly maidens. In other words, it is a big pay day low risk of pain fight for Ricky. Why walk away from the sport when he can trouser another few millions. His fans will turn out again I reckon, and who knows he might even win. Though I doubt it. Now Ricky has to realise, and I reckon he has already, that reaching the pinnacle against PBF will always be a step too far. So forget Corinthian ideals, earn a shed load of cash, and set you and your family up for life. Boxing, after all, is sport. But it is also a business, and the riskiest out there.

[johnswan1]

The Ricky of old would have fared better. So would a Ricky who keeps himself in shape all the time. But there is little point dealing with ifs and buts. He has now made an enormnous amount of money, and should think long and hard about the future. In the unlikely event I had ever been invited to have been his manager, I would have counselled against the Mayweather fight now, simply because anyone who knew boxing knew where the odds were stacked. He could have taken Malignaggi, for example, and still had the option of Mayweather next summer. However, if he really did get 20 million dollars - as one paper suggested today - then maybe it is a matter of seizing the moment. Why face Cotto, as has been suggested, when he would in all probability lose? He doesn't need it. Also, if Mayweather hurt him, Cotto could do worse because he is no scientist in the ring, but a slugger. I know Ray is well aware of that, which is why they have never shown any intention of going down that route. If Ricky wants a win, Mallignaggi is an option, though he would never get 20 mill for that. Otherwise, after a time out, why not De La Hoya. The Golden Boy is an wonderful self publicist, and a itching at the chance to get a toe hold in Britain as a promoter one way or another. He is now 58 years old, and is not what he once was, and is quite capable of making the level of mayhem - witness his 'fight' with PBF - that would not upset even the most prudish of elderly maidens. In other words, it is a big pay day low risk of pain fight for Ricky. Why walk away from the sport when he can trouser another few millions. His fans will turn out again I reckon, and who knows he might even win. Though I doubt it. Now Ricky has to realise, and I reckon he has already, that reaching the pinnacle against PBF will always be a step too far. So forget Corinthian ideals, earn a shed load of cash, and set you and your family up for life. Boxing, after all, is sport. But it is also a business, and the riskiest out there.

De La Hoya might be a big pay day, but do you really think it would be a "low risk of pain fight"? Hatton is a guy who struggles with Welters because they are too big. If DLH can knock out Mayorga don't you think he would knock out Hatton just as easily? Remember the size difference when DLH fought Gatti? How would Ricky even be expected to fight DLH? Use his strength and impose his will and pressure him? DLH is a counter puncher anyway and as soon as one of those left hooks landed it would be lights out.

[The Blade]

The Ricky of old would have fared better. So would a Ricky who keeps himself in shape all the time. But there is little point dealing with ifs and buts. He has now made an enormnous amount of money, and should think long and hard about the future. In the unlikely event I had ever been invited to have been his manager, I would have counselled against the Mayweather fight now, simply because anyone who knew boxing knew where the odds were stacked. He could have taken Malignaggi, for example, and still had the option of Mayweather next summer. However, if he really did get 20 million dollars - as one paper suggested today - then maybe it is a matter of seizing the moment. Why face Cotto, as has been suggested, when he would in all probability lose? He doesn't need it. Also, if Mayweather hurt him, Cotto could do worse because he is no scientist in the ring, but a slugger. I know Ray is well aware of that, which is why they have never shown any intention of going down that route. If Ricky wants a win, Mallignaggi is an option, though he would never get 20 mill for that. Otherwise, after a time out, why not De La Hoya. The Golden Boy is an wonderful self publicist, and a itching at the chance to get a toe hold in Britain as a promoter one way or another. He is now 58 years old, and is not what he once was, and is quite capable of making the level of mayhem - witness his 'fight' with PBF - that would not upset even the most prudish of elderly maidens. In other words, it is a big pay day low risk of pain fight for Ricky. Why walk away from the sport when he can trouser another few millions. His fans will turn out again I reckon, and who knows he might even win. Though I doubt it. Now Ricky has to realise, and I reckon he has already, that reaching the pinnacle against PBF will always be a step too far. So forget Corinthian ideals, earn a shed load of cash, and set you and your family up for life. Boxing, after all, is sport. But it is also a business, and the riskiest out there.

De La Hoya might be a big pay day, but do you really think it would be a "low risk of pain fight"? Hatton is a guy who struggles with Welters because they are too big. If DLH can knock out Mayorga don't you think he would knock out Hatton just as easily? Remember the size difference when DLH fought Gatti? How would Ricky even be expected to fight DLH? Use his strength and impose his will and pressure him? DLH is a counter puncher anyway and as soon as one of those left hooks landed it would be lights out.

[The Blade]

The Ricky of old would have fared better. So would a Ricky who keeps himself in shape all the time. But there is little point dealing with ifs and buts. He has now made an enormnous amount of money, and should think long and hard about the future. In the unlikely event I had ever been invited to have been his manager, I would have counselled against the Mayweather fight now, simply because anyone who knew boxing knew where the odds were stacked. He could have taken Malignaggi, for example, and still had the option of Mayweather next summer. However, if he really did get 20 million dollars - as one paper suggested today - then maybe it is a matter of seizing the moment. Why face Cotto, as has been suggested, when he would in all probability lose? He doesn't need it. Also, if Mayweather hurt him, Cotto could do worse because he is no scientist in the ring, but a slugger. I know Ray is well aware of that, which is why they have never shown any intention of going down that route. If Ricky wants a win, Mallignaggi is an option, though he would never get 20 mill for that. Otherwise, after a time out, why not De La Hoya. The Golden Boy is an wonderful self publicist, and a itching at the chance to get a toe hold in Britain as a promoter one way or another. He is now 58 years old, and is not what he once was, and is quite capable of making the level of mayhem - witness his 'fight' with PBF - that would not upset even the most prudish of elderly maidens. In other words, it is a big pay day low risk of pain fight for Ricky. Why walk away from the sport when he can trouser another few millions. His fans will turn out again I reckon, and who knows he might even win. Though I doubt it. Now Ricky has to realise, and I reckon he has already, that reaching the pinnacle against PBF will always be a step too far. So forget Corinthian ideals, earn a shed load of cash, and set you and your family up for life. Boxing, after all, is sport. But it is also a business, and the riskiest out there.

De La Hoya might be a big pay day, but do you really think it would be a "low risk of pain fight"? Hatton is a guy who struggles with Welters because they are too big. If DLH can knock out Mayorga don't you think he would knock out Hatton just as easily? Remember the size difference when DLH fought Gatti? How would Ricky even be expected to fight DLH? Use his strength and impose his will and pressure him? DLH is a counter puncher anyway and as soon as one of those left hooks landed it would be lights out.

What I'm saying in a roundabout kind of way is that the mystique is broken. A lot of fighters will fancy Ricky now, eespecially since he represents a big pay day. So, assuming that he isn't going to the top of the tree while PBF is around, he may as well go for the fight which puts the most dosh in his bank account.

[oliverfennell]

I'm not sure if Hatton has physically peaked or not, but I suspect this was THE peak of his career (not the same thing). He gave four months of his life to this fight and he came up empty-handed. I'm not sure he can do that again. He might end his career McGuigan or Minter-style.

[Arbachakov]

hatton is not one of the top ten post war British fighters imo, though he is one of the best of a relatively weak generation(for boxing as a whole).

He's this generations version of john Stracey, a good solid no-bullshit pro that caught an aging long reigning champ at the end of his career and scored a couple of other decent wins without looking all that great in any of his fights against world class opposition.

Does some things very well, but overall a pretty limited skillset.

Certainly his win over Kostya is one of the great wins by a British fighter over a big name oponent, but it's certainly not on the level of Stracey beating all-time great Napoles and even with that win John was not even one of the top five Brits of the seventies.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Hatton will always look better against an opponent whos easier to hit and doesn't have the skills to throw punishing counter punches. Phillips and Tackie both had Hatton on queer street despite Phillips being old and overwhelmed by the workrate and Tackie being 1 dimensional.

A prime Phillips wouldn't struggle with the workrate and would have been a tough fight indeed.

Ricky seemed to have abandoned the jab and hooks to the body at world class level. WHY? Maybe its because against Tyszu and Mayweather left hooks to the body and left jabs will be punnished with BIG counter right hands.

Rick never learned to be tight enough defensively or stick and move with his jab. He was always be open to big counters because of this and maybe thats why he was steered away from Witter, Mayweather, Harris before him being risked against Tyszu

You can't blame Warren for fights like Collazo, Urango, Maussa happening either. Ricky's done a great job selling his product to us but he isn't quite as good as many would have had us believe. Anyway good luck to him, I used to positively dislike Hatton but I've grown to like him and the massive Hatton culture that has developed.

[whatashambles]

I think he peaked a couple of years ago. His constant fluctuation in weight has caught up with him.
Moreover, I think the Mayweather fight will have a big mental effect on him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him fight on, but he's no longer the force many saw him as before. I reckon Witter or Malignaggi would beat him.

[DavidPayne]

Amazing how quickly the perception changes.

[Southpaw Stylist]

Amazing how quickly the perception changes.

#

Elaborate please...

[ALI]

Now, against Mayweather - the best fighter on the planet - he's unable to sustain his output, is brave and courageous but cannot throw clusters of shots, relies only on leaping in with single shots to close the gap.

Good thread David, not an easy subject to raise at this point in time but you put your points across very well.

I also believe Hatton has peaked, his best days were pre-Tyszu no doubt. These days he throws a lead punch and immeadita'ly looks to hold.
Mayweather's defence was awesome, but i'm convinced that if Hatton had fought him 4 years ago he would certainly have found something to the body, he would have gotten in some clean work and perhaps troubled Mayweather with punches and not just hugs. I'm sure he'd still have lost, but it could have been a lot closer than it was on Saturday night!

Hatton is clearly still a top level fighter, there's no doubting that. But, the question is wether fighting on can enhance or tarnish his legacy. 4-5 years ago i never gave Witter much of a chance against Hatton but today it would be a tough one for me to call. I would honestly hate to see Hatton sparked out by Witter, i like Junior as a fighter but its just not something i want to see for Hatton at this time of his career.

[Autobarn]

It might just be that vs top level he can't do all that inside work. We all agree that he was near prime vs Tszyu, yet vs Tszyu it was more about squeezing the fight out of the opponent and punching when Tszyu was tired.

I think it's a combination. Vs Mayweather, in hindsight, it was compounded because Floyd is such a great defensive fighter (something I've always acknowledged him as).

Hatton did some good things in the fight. Sometimes he did remember to slip coming in (moving hs head to the left to avoid some rights). Sometimes early he did good left hand work to prevent Floyd from circling away.But he couldn't put them all together.

He's a fast fighter but either he doesn't have the stamina to keep it going anymore or doesn't quite have the pedigree to find a different way. Given that performances vs Urango, Collazo and Floyd all went wrong there has been a problem for a while.

I think he's used up too many miles beating imports up in Manchester. A fighter of his style only has so much mileage. I recall when everyone was gaga over Lacy. I said as good as he is now, he'll be a shot fighter before you know it struggling through sub par performances.


Ricky's not THAT far gone, he can still win over top 10 comp at 140 but he's lost his aura, he's put so much into 1 fight and then failed, that he'll have gone back some more. Think Witter would knock him out.

[DavidPayne]

Amazing how quickly the perception changes.

#

Elaborate please...

My elaboration is largely at the top.

But its amazing how a defeat completely changes the complexion of a fighter's career.

It happened to Hamed and it will now happen to Hatton, though both lost to all time greats, there are some parallels between their careers.

I hope Ricky proves me wrong in his next outing at 140, because the evidence of a prolonged decline in the level of his performances is very barely concealed by the collection of trinkets he's collected in the past 3 years.

I like the fella, he's a terrific fighter and a good ambassador for the sport. I begrudge him no acclaim or reward and I don't question his intent, courage or dedication to training. But his fight night performances are not reflecting the effort he's putting into to camp or the noises he and his camp make.

I'll throw some more theories in for you.

Is the much vaunted Kerry Kayes weight lifting scheme still a positive aspect of his training? Is Hatton sacrificing stamina for power, which I would argue is contrary to his style anyway.

I'd rather Hatton hit a guy 10 times than 3 times with 20% more power.

And furthermore, Jeff Powell - who I detest - raised an interesting point in the Mail, was Hatton over-trained, he was 143lbs weeks before the weigh in. Kayes said he was dry due to nerves about the check weigh in and a heavy work out but its a valid point.

Was the best of Hatton left on the gym floor in Manchester?

Perhaps I should just accept the gifts Mayweather brought negate everything Hatton could ever have had.

[stujones]

He would have certainly been ready for Tszyu earlier had he fought the likes of Harris, Mitchell etc straight after Magee.... and he was ready for them at that stage.

[oliverfennell]

Amazing how quickly the perception changes.

Yes, just a few weeks ago I was copping flak for calling Hatton over-rated, now everybody's jumping over each other to say he's past his best and never had a chance against Floyd.

[DavidPayne]

Too true.

I feel like a veil has been lifted after Saturday, though I maintain, Cortez affected Hatton's chances by, I would suggest 25-50%.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

He would have certainly been ready for Tszyu earlier had he fought the likes of Harris, Mitchell etc straight after Magee.... and he was ready for them at that stage.

Risky fight in 2004 and HArris is a murderous puncher if he catches you. Ricky always has been open to counters so why risk it? They did attempt to make the Harris fight and Ricky probably would have won but it was a risk.

In 2004 Ricky probably rips through Mitchell but say in 2002 Mitchell may have outhustled him and this would always have been Warrens concern. Mitchell doesnt have the pop to KO Ricky but he could Collazo him to an extent