BoxRec

Deserter wrote:

jessi wrote:If you had to put a number on natural ability and fitness I would say 80% natural ability, someone mentioned other sports earlier, I think a good example would be Ronnie o Sullivan, even if he didn't practice I'd say his natural ability alone would put him in the world top 8, of course boxers need to be fit but heart, fitness and ambition alone doesn't take you to world class level In any sport !

As for the earlier mention of Ledley King and McGrath, it's what they did in their formative years pre-injury and pre-alcoholism that allowed them to reach that level.

Yes but in order for them to still perform at the highest level without training must show that they have natural talent surely? If it is all about training and hard work then surely when they stopped training then they wouldn't be able to continue at the highest levels?

Macho certainly get your point, Genetics will decide your Sport,. and endeavor. But not the outcome of it, you wont get a Heavyweight Boxer performing on the Parallel Bars for sure. But if you Did, and He was Good, He would be Special . Case in point Jonathan Edwards wasnt the right Genetic Build for the Triple Jump

Some people naturally respond better to training that others. Some people have a mechanical make-up designed ideal for the sport they participate in ie. 'Jon Bones' Jones in MMA, and Usain Bolt in track.


Do people have a 'peak' when it comes to trainability, or is your trainability unlimited? I can't sing for shit, and no amount of training could deal with that, therefore I naturally cannot sing. An example!

Reflexes (natural?)
Stamina (can be trained)
Abilty to take a punch (natural)
Speed (trained to an extent, but I'll never be Usain Bolt)

Natural ability can be nurtured to get you to the top.

CB wrote:

Deserter wrote:

jessi wrote:If you had to put a number on natural ability and fitness I would say 80% natural ability, someone mentioned other sports earlier, I think a good example would be Ronnie o Sullivan, even if he didn't practice I'd say his natural ability alone would put him in the world top 8, of course boxers need to be fit but heart, fitness and ambition alone doesn't take you to world class level In any sport !

As for the earlier mention of Ledley King and McGrath, it's what they did in their formative years pre-injury and pre-alcoholism that allowed them to reach that level.

Yes but in order for them to still perform at the highest level without training must show that they have natural talent surely? If it is all about training and hard work then surely when they stopped training then they wouldn't be able to continue at the highest levels?

There are factors that would affect that such as muscle memory, but it's also about their performance versus their potential performance. Those factors affecting McGrath and King would have inhibited them from reaching their full potential - the fact they are still able to perform at the same level as others is almost neither here or there. It's more that an alcholic Mcgrath was still a good player but just lower than what he could have been. So yes, the ability and skill they'd developed were sufficient to keep them at that level, but if they'd still be able to apply themselves properly, they'd have been even higher in terms of performance level.
Don't misunderstand me, I do believe genetics play a part, but I believe the idea that it's 80% 'natural talent' is ridiculous. If Ronnie O'Sullivan, for example, hadn't practised religiously in his formative years, he'd never have come close to developing that level of ability.

That's a good point about Ronnie practicing in his early years, I never looked at it like that, so would you say Frankie Gavin may not have been such a successful amateur had he chose a different boxing club when he started out ? How much can a coach help someone who seems to be more natural than others ?

carlbcfc wrote:Some people naturally respond better to training that others. Some people have a mechanical make-up designed ideal for the sport they participate in ie. 'Jon Bones' Jones in MMA, and Usain Bolt in track.


Do people have a 'peak' when it comes to trainability, or is your trainability unlimited? I can't sing for shit, and no amount of training could deal with that, therefore I naturally cannot sing. An example!

Reflexes (natural?)
Stamina (can be trained)
Abilty to take a punch (natural)
Speed (trained to an extent, but I'll never be Usain Bolt)

Natural ability can be nurtured to get you to the top.

I reckon your ability to tale a punch has less to do with nature than most people think. Yes you get some people at either end of the scale with granite or glass jaws. But I think the differences in fighters' durability are more often due to strength, stamina, defence, how well you train you body to deal with punishment and if you fight in a way that maximises your chance of seeing punches coming. Obviously the shape of your skull etc are important but less important than most people think I reckon.

Heres a little Story, A 40 year old Guy, a Farmer, was told by His Doctor To pack His job up, because He had a Dicky Heart. So worried, He told me, that He decided to start Jogging. Then found out He loved it, so kept on running, just like Forrest Gump . He broke more Long distance Records than anyone, Pennine Way 2 days Coast to coast Whitley Bay to St Johns Head 36 hours. Then went to the America and won a Big Mountain Race there, this was in His late 40s, plus He was 6ft, not made for long Distance Running. Joss Naylor OBE .

This will fry Frankies head when he reads this.

Frankie seems to have decided to live on the past glory of his World Amateurs win. He hasn't committed to the training regimes or lifestyle required to be the best in pro boxing. Like many amateur and pro boxers he is holding back so he will always have the exscuse to fall back on- "I was with the wrong trainer" "I wasn't boxing at the right weight" "If only I was fully fit i would have won" etc etc etc etc.

It's a difficult thing to do to fully commit yourself to being the best and achieving that dream because if you do there is always the possibillity that if it doesn't happen you will have to admit to youself that, actually you weren't the bset after all with no exscuse to fall back on.

Hope I am proved wrong by the way. I thinkFrankie Gavin is the single most case of wasted talent that British boxing has ever seen.

coachster wrote:Frankie seems to have decided to live on the past glory of his World Amateurs win. He hasn't committed to the training regimes or lifestyle required to be the best in pro boxing. Like many amateur and pro boxers he is holding back so he will always have the exscuse to fall back on- "I was with the wrong trainer" "I wasn't boxing at the right weight" "If only I was fully fit i would have won" etc etc etc etc.

It's a difficult thing to do to fully commit yourself to being the best and achieving that dream because if you do there is always the possibillity that if it doesn't happen you will have to admit to youself that, actually you weren't the bset after all with no exscuse to fall back on.

Hope I am proved wrong by the way. I thinkFrankie Gavin is the single most case of wasted talent that British boxing has ever seen.

I think that's a comment if I get beat I am training hard now in the gym gone back to basics Like starting over really an enjoying be back home round my family, if I lose I will be first to take the blame no one else is in ring bar me but til then I wouldn't write me off

Having been round Him a bit, He isnt that Type. Taking time out is a good idea, recently He has been through an emotional time, He will sort it.

jessi wrote:That's a good point about Ronnie practicing in his early years, I never looked at it like that, so would you say Frankie Gavin may not have been such a successful amateur had he chose a different boxing club when he started out ? How much can a coach help to someone who seems to be more natural than others ?

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not just about the coach, it's about the whole environment - access to training, quality of fellow fighters etc.
To give you a good example, I'm originally from Somerset - name me a single professional football player that's come from Somerset... now tell me whether you believe that's because the entire male population of Somerset, both present and past, somehow has less 'natural talent' than their equivalents in Merseyside, for example (I know I'm opening myself up to the smart quips here!).
The reality is because there's less of a football culture/environment in Somerset, so there isn't the same level of competition, the same level of coaching, the same access to facilities etc, etc, etc. Given this, the kid growing up in football hotbed such as Merseyside, has a massive headstart from day one, and can just accelerate away even further as they grow up due to the benefits of getting huge amounts of purposeful practice under their belt by comparison.
This doesn't just apply to sport, in his book 'Outliers' Malcolm Gladwell illustrates how businessmen and musicians have also benefitted from their environment and he talks about the 'golden rule' of getting 10,000 hours of purposeful practice under your belt. For example: "...he describes how Bill Gates was able to get to 10,000 hours while still in middle and high school in Seattle due to 9 incredibly fortunate concurrences: among them, that his private school could fund a sophisticated computer in their computer club, and fact that he lived close to the U. of Washington, where he could use an even more sophisticated computer. Gladwell concedes that Gates is obviously brilliant, but still notes that many other brilliant youth never had the chance to become computer stars of Gates’ magnitude because they didn’t have access to these sophisticated computers."

Frankie Gavin wrote:

coachster wrote:Frankie seems to have decided to live on the past glory of his World Amateurs win. He hasn't committed to the training regimes or lifestyle required to be the best in pro boxing. Like many amateur and pro boxers he is holding back so he will always have the exscuse to fall back on- "I was with the wrong trainer" "I wasn't boxing at the right weight" "If only I was fully fit i would have won" etc etc etc etc.

It's a difficult thing to do to fully commit yourself to being the best and achieving that dream because if you do there is always the possibillity that if it doesn't happen you will have to admit to youself that, actually you weren't the bset after all with no exscuse to fall back on.

Hope I am proved wrong by the way. I thinkFrankie Gavin is the single most case of wasted talent that British boxing has ever seen.

I think that's a comment if I get beat I am training hard now in the gym gone back to basics Like starting over really an enjoying be back home round my family, if I lose I will be first to take the blame no one else is in ring bar me but til then I wouldn't write me off

Frankie, apologies for hijacking your thread with a different debate, but just wanted to say it's really good to hear that you're in a happier place.
You shouldn't under-estimate how many people on here are rooting for you and want you to go on to have huge success

coachster wrote:Frankie seems to have decided to live on the past glory of his World Amateurs win. He hasn't committed to the training regimes or lifestyle required to be the best in pro boxing. Like many amateur and pro boxers he is holding back so he will always have the exscuse to fall back on- "I was with the wrong trainer" "I wasn't boxing at the right weight" "If only I was fully fit i would have won" etc etc etc etc.

It's a difficult thing to do to fully commit yourself to being the best and achieving that dream because if you do there is always the possibillity that if it doesn't happen you will have to admit to youself that, actually you weren't the bset after all with no exscuse to fall back on.

Hope I am proved wrong by the way. I thinkFrankie Gavin is the single most case of wasted talent that British boxing has ever seen.

How can Frankie be the most wasted talent in Britain, his still a novice pro who's still learning and trying to find his feet at the moment, you obviously don't know Frankie very well, if he looses he would be the first one on this forum holding his hands up and blaming himself, don't write him off until he looses mate !

Like I said I hope I am proved wrong. Good luck to you Frankie I would love to see you achieve your potential, go for it full on and prove me and anyone else that has doubts wrong. I will be on here praising you and acknowledging I was wrong if you do. All the best.

Just a thought about your pro footballer coming from somerset, I agree with most of that except I would imagine the population of Cornwall, Devon, and somerset put together is still less then greater Manchester or central London, so theres just less chance I suppose, however boxings different, why is there so many good boxers coming from out in the sticks, the welsh success is probably the best example, maybe some cultures just have fighting in there blood !

jessi wrote:Just a thought about your pro footballer coming from somerset, I agree with most of that except I would imagine the population of Cornwall, Devon, and somerset put together is still less then greater Manchester or central London, so theres just less chance I suppose, however boxings different, why is there so many good boxers coming from out in the sticks, the welsh success is probably the best example, maybe some cultures just have fighting in there blood !

I nearly put in a caveat saying that I'd taken into account population numbers but made the assumption that people would realise that - my fault. If you want to do a comparison on that level - look at Bristol and Newcastle. Bristol's the bigger city, but I can only name Marcus Stewart off the top of my head as a pro from there who played at anywhere near the highest level.
As for boxing, the one thing it's clearly inextricably linked to is relative poverty - how many fighters do you know from a public school background, for example? The areas of south Wales that are boxing hotbeds are also characterised by the 'standard barometers' of high unemployment, low income levels etc.

I knew you would of taken population into account, I didn't mean to state the obvious but had to just incase. Yes it's all very interesting, I think boxing will grow to get stronger and stronger in this country, almost every boy has tried football at some time but very few have tried boxing, but with the likes of naz in the 90's making a new breed of school boys try the sport, our success from 2000 untill now could thank him, and then khan in 2004 made the gyms packed out for months, and what with 2012 rapidly approaching we really have 2 or 3 gold medal hopefuls who are there because of khans success maybe !
And if this snowball keeps rolling we could be the nation to beat come 2016/2020.
I suppose what im trying to say is maybe you have convinced me, that yes natural ability is always something some kids have over others, but that also success breeds success and the more people who try a sport the more chance of champions

jessi wrote:I knew you would of taken population into account, I didn't mean to state the obvious but had to just incase. Yes it's all very interesting, I think boxing will grow to get stronger and stronger in this country, almost every boy has tried football at some time but very few have tried boxing, but with the likes of naz in the 90's making a new breed of school boys try the sport, our success from 2000 untill now could thank him, and then khan in 2004 made the gyms packed out for months, and what with 2012 rapidly approaching we really have 2 or 3 gold medal hopefuls who are there because of khans success maybe !
And if this snowball keeps rolling we could be the nation to beat come 2016/2020.
I suppose what im trying to say is maybe you have convinced me, that yes natural ability is always something some kids have over others, but that also success breeds success and the more people who try a sport the more chance of champions

Got some good Rugby Teams down there, could be the Cider

Scrap wrote:Got some good Rugby Teams down there, could be the Cider

Ssssh... we don't need everyone else knowing our secret. Who needs energy drinks when you've got Scrumpy?

Deserter wrote:

Scrap wrote:Got some good Rugby Teams down there, could be the Cider

Ssssh... we don't need everyone else knowing our secret. Who needs energy drinks when you've got Scrumpy?

With a dead rat in there to give it added flavour and meat too.

IRLangmaid25 wrote:

Deserter wrote:

Scrap wrote:Got some good Rugby Teams down there, could be the Cider

Ssssh... we don't need everyone else knowing our secret. Who needs energy drinks when you've got Scrumpy?

With a dead rat in there to give it added flavour and meat too.